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You dislike my posts because you disagree with them, regardless of how sincere I am when I make them. Daylen is merely doing the same.

Daylen is disliking them because I am posting, not because of the content.

No Gov, you're wrong (as usual). I'm very much 'disliking' them because of the content. For the record, I only dislike posts I either strongly disagree with or just really really annoy me (as with most of yours, I admit). Also, if you paid attention, you'd see that I haven't disliked ALL your posts.

Quite frankly I found your statement a long winded (albeit well worded) self justification for your own behaviour. One big rambling excuse. Your thinly veiled attemts to place the blame on others (once again) didn't escape my notice either. It's just another in a long line of examples that show you really just don't get it. At all. You don't understand and I'm confident you never will. Many people have tried to tell you in many different ways but it still doesn't sink in. It's the online equivalent of you giving a blank face. This is why (unlike a few naive folk on here) I believe you're beyond help. Maybe professionals will prove me wrong. I certainly hope so. But until then, you have to accept that a significant number of us don't want to have to deal with you.

You claim you wanted to take a hiatus (the one thing you've said so far which I don't actually think is all that truthful on your part), if that is the case, just go quietly and get yourself sorted. As much kinder folk than me have suggested earlier.

Your desperate attempt to try and get people to be lenient on you by supposedly 'apologising' is annoying as well. I can tell that you think you mean what you're saying, as, for all your many many faults: you don't lie. However, I can tell that you don't really understand what you're apologising for. You dont get it. You don't feel it. You understand you've upset a lot of people and want to rectify it. But you still don't understand just why it is that people are upset with you. So now you've taken to apologising to try and get people on side again. I understand the tactic, I really do but I also have the right to be damn well annoyed about it. And 'dislike' it accordingly.

Now I'M the one that's doing his 'best to be as civil here as possible'.

I gotta admit, I've been going back and forth with myself for the last 2 days about saying pretty much the same thing, but I wasn't sure if I'd be speaking my mind or being a d-bag. I'm glad someone else said it so as to end my dilemma.

I'm not going to mince words here.

On the one hand, I really want to go back to being the person who tries to help you, because I absolutely hate being the opposite.  I don't like being the person that gives someone the cold shoulder, and I try to value everyone enough to be able to give them chances if things don't the right way or mistakes are made.  There are many times that I truly feel bad for you when shit happens in your life, or when people do genuinely say things to you that are downright rude or insulting...and I've had talks with those people still on occasion despite the wedge between us.

However, I'd rather cut off that hand at this point, Gov, because I feel like that bridge has long since been burned and there's little to no hope of rebuilding it between us until you've genuinely gone out and gotten some professional help and gotten yourself squared away.

Your behavior at this point in time is one big scary roller coaster ride, and one that I don't care to ride again.  You have your days where you can be pleasant to talk to, and then you have days where you're either downright insulting, harassing, or just overall intolerable to be around to where I want to rip my hair out and scream at you because of how you come off.

I'll be honest...I lost practically the rest of any respect I had for you after the Sci ordeal.  I don't care that you were his mentor, and that's great that you feel that kind of connection to him...but being someone's mentor doesn't trump the well-being of anyone that was actually involved.  There's a time for being curious, and there's a time for being decent in respect for those people.  When you go out seeking information to a subject not related to you that could harm the confidentiality of anyone in the room who could have been part of it (not to mention, talking about it publicly in the chat)...that's just flat out rude and insulting.  What if they were right there in the chat when you were talking about it?  It's shit like that that makes people not want to be here...if they can't feel safe because you're prodding for information.  Do you really want someone to leave the region because they don't feel like they can be safe here?

When I kept telling you to drop the subject and stop talking about it, and said something to Barnes in the chat when it was brought up...I wasn't trying to be a dick and get people to not talk about it for the lulz.  I was trying to be respectful for those in the room.  Barnes understood it, which was why he apologized. Hell, it wasn't even a "Stop talking about it." Or something like that...it was a fucking slap.  But it's called being tactful, and I wasn't trying to suppress your right to speak...I was suppressing your non-right to break potential confidentiality, as is both expected from everyone, and was asked by Wintermoot.

I put you on ignore because you wouldn't leave it alone, and talking with you is like a brick wall.  I've made criticisms, suggestions, and have genuinely really tried to help you out despite my feelings towards you (see the entire chat plus me trying to help you out on days you've been really depressed)...and every time I've been met with either long drawn out arguments, casual dislikes on forum posts, or just plain being ignored on the subject despite you having a severe beef with people who you feel ignore you.

It's really become a one way road.  We made a promise after my revocation attempt that we would both work better and try to be friends.  I literally fought for you and told people to not talk bad about you (you can ask Chanku, whom I've told more often than not), and tried my damndest to be nice to you.  I talked pleasantly to you in chat/forums, and tried to work things out with you.  But that whole fucking ordeal just showed me that no matter what...all I have to do is say one thing to you, and you go apeshit.  You went apeshit when I ignored you (oh yes, I heard all about it and saw the logs),  you go apeshit on people who don't respond to you right away (see anything related to the topic you were mentioning in your statement), and I'm just done with it.

I have always grown up being direct with others, and expecting people to adapt, if not find some middle ground.

This right there is your biggest problem that needs to be worked on.  There's a time for expecting people to adapt to your standards, and then there's a time that YOU have to be the one doing the adapting.  People are going to ignore you for multitudes of reasons.  It's not always a way of insulting you...sometimes someone just is choosing to say nothing because it's less insulting than what they really want to say to you.  No matter how much you want it, it's not going to change, and people are either going to be even LESS likely to speak to you, or they're going to lash out at you if you push at them to get an answer out of them.  Again, wanting it to change isn't going to make it change anytime soon.  YOU need to learn to adapt to the fact that being ignored =/= them trying to insult you, and you need to accept the fact that it's going to happen.

The way you've sought middle ground is what has hurt the members here in the way that it has.  You've insulted people calling them passive-aggressive.  You tell people that they overreact when they say something you disagree with or they don't respond to you (Hell, you even said it about Hannah right there in your statement).  You villanize them by telling people in the chat that "such and such doesn't care about me/my feelings," even if that may not even be close to the case.  You aggressively ask, and ask, and ask, and ask and query, and ping, and query, and ping (at least in IRC) when someone doesn't answer right away or chooses not to answer you, and drag it on a daily basis until you get an answer out of them.  Again, there's better ways to seek a middle ground (a single PM or query saying "Hey, I'd like your opinion on such and such, and would really appreciate it if you responded to me about it")...and then there's learning that you're not going to get anywhere and moving on (for example, leaving the PM/query alone if they don't respond to it).  It's not the end of the world if someone chooses not to speak with you, as there are others at there that may choose to.  But for some reason, you've never been able to comprehend that, or willfully choose not to comprehend that...I haven't quite figured out which.

But again, I'm just done with it, personally.  Others are welcome to jump in and try to be the mediator or be the person that speaks up on your behalf...but I refuse that role.  Don't get me wrong...if things are being said against you that are completely in the wrong, I'll still stand up for you since there's shit I don't tolerate being said about people, regardless of who they are (IE, I absolutely won't accept a PnG since as intolerable as I feel you can be, you're not a criminal who should be cast out).  But I'm not going to otherwise be a voice in your corner anymore.

So I appreciate the olive branch, but I unfortunately won't accept it at this time because I don't want to ride that roller coaster anymore.

I just want to say how much I agree with and support Pengu's post above. Possibly the best and most well written post I've ever read on here. I'm not kidding either. It details (in a much better way than even I could write myself) just exactly what the problem is.

As someone who also tried to help Gov once upon a time (feels so long ago now), I, maybe more than anyone can understand EXACTLY how Pengu is feeling regarding Gov. I seemed to reach this same conclusion rather quickly myself but I'm willing to admit my patience and tolerance levels for this kind of shit are seemingly far far lower than Pengu's. Basically: he's a better man than me.

The truly sad thing is, is that I know Gov will never be able to comprehend or understand what we're saying. Believe it or not, I will give Gov the benefit of the doubt by saying that I don't think he actively chooses not to comprehend, I just honestly think he's not mentally capable of it.

Now with that conclusion reached, some may say that he deserves some kind of special consideration or privelage. As he essentially 'can't help it'. I would ask: why? Sometimes we have to accept that some people are not suited for certain places. I've kept that line deliberately vague to encompass a lot of things. This is one of those times. I firmly believe (as I'm sure the future will prove) that Gov is beyond changing or learning.

So in summary, do we put up with it? Or finally draw a line under it. I believe the later is the only humane option for the wellbeing of EVERYONE. The rest of us shoudn't have to deal with it and Gov needs to realise that we don't share his opinions (not 'fact' as he would like to believe) about what respect is and how you treat people. He needs to learn to be the one to adapt and not expect everyone to adapt to him. He basically needs to unlearn the awful awful way he was parented (in my personal opinion, as his Dad is probably to blame for a lot of this). Only professional help will allow that.

I really really want him to read and understand everything we are saying.

Prove me wrong Gov. Please. Prove me wrong.

And it's done. It now has a majority in the OH. Gov, I hope you take everything we've said to heart, because the ice only gets thinner from here on out.

While I appreciate the statement that Gov made, and I certainly considered it in my deliberations on how to vote in the Overhusen, I still felt compelled to support the revocation.

I think back to the Civilization mess...if you remember, Gov, soon after it happened we had what I thought was a pretty good discussion about it, where you apologized and promised to do better. I was feeling pretty good about the situation, but then you asked that the ban be dropped because we had that discussion, and when I declined to, stating that you should take the ban time to think it over, you immediately descended back into your poor behaviour, some of which I submitted as evidence in this revocation case. That's when I came to realize that you had only said those things because you thought that would get you what you wanted. Perhaps you didn't consciously see it that way, but that's the reality of that situation.

And that's what bothers me the most...you do know how to behave when you have to in order to get what you want or to avoid what you don't want...such as this a revocation. Perhaps like a child you don't understand the repercussions of your actions, but you do on some level know how to push people's buttons to get what you want. It's no coincidence that you mostly dropped your misbehaviour with me and others who threatened to file a court case against you, yet you hammered on those who were too kind and soft-hearted to do so. I'm aware of things and have seen logs that weren't submitted during this period, and at times your behaviour towards the latter group goes beyond mere pestering and crosses into actual emotional abuse. I'm sure that you don't mean to be abusive, but you are, and that was a large part why I supported taking major action against you in IRC, and was actually disappointed when the consensus turned out to be the probation arrangement instead.

So now we're considering another revocation attempt, it's clear that many people have issue with you, and you post what's on the surface a very reasonable statement (although I have some issue with it beneath the surface)...but you posted some very reasonable things during the last revocation, and in part because of that Pengu was very generous and dropped his support for the revocation, in spite of being the person that drove it. And yet very soon it had become apparent that nothing had changed at all...starting with your retaliatory attacks and smears against Pengu for launching that revocation attempt to start with.

At this point, multiple generations of Wintreans have had to consider the topic of your status in the region, and at some point this community deserves to be able to move on from that...as I said after your last revocation attempt, it's not a community responsibility to put up with your bad behaviour, even if it isn't malicious. While I appreciate your statement, given my past experience with you, your reasonable words need to be backed up by a long period of reasonable action at this point. Revoking your Citizenship is a very serious move, but it does not remove you from the community...you will still have the opportunity to prove that your statement isn't just nice words said to get what you want, and I sincerely hope that you do get the help that you need and are better to socialize with others.

However, after all this region has been through in taking you in, defending your presence here, dealing with your behaviour, and now considering this revocation, it deserves to be able to move on peacefully if you're unable to improve. It doesn't deserve to have go through yet another revocation proceeding a few months or a year from now. One way or another, we have to lay this issue to rest, and sooner rather than later. I can only hope that when that time comes, that it will be because you have  redeemed yourself to the people of this community, because it goes without saying that this will be your final chance to do so. I hope you make the most of it.

And it's done. It now has a majority in the OH. Gov, I hope you take everything we've said to heart, because the ice only gets thinner from here on out.

I would like a chance to make a statement before the citizenship masking is changed, please? 

I have a job interview and another screen very soon.

Also, am I still able to take part in Werewolf / any RP?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 via Tapatalk

And it's done. It now has a majority in the OH. Gov, I hope you take everything we've said to heart, because the ice only gets thinner from here on out.

I would like a chance to make a statement before the citizenship masking is changed, please? 

I have a job interview and another screen very soon.

Also, am I still able to take part in Werewolf / any RP?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 via Tapatalk

I'm afraid you don't get to have a say in when the masking is removed, as I imagine that's entirely up to Mootles' convenience. As for RPs etc, as I understand it there should be no issue with you partaking

What Weissreich said.  Any area you still have access to is fair game, I think.

Now that Wuufu has certified the result in the Overhusen, I have removed Govindia's Citizenship masking as required in the Revocation of Govindia's Citizenship Act.

And it's done. It now has a majority in the OH. Gov, I hope you take everything we've said to heart, because the ice only gets thinner from here on out.

I would like a chance to make a statement before the citizenship masking is changed, please? 

I have a job interview and another screen very soon.

Also, am I still able to take part in Werewolf / any RP?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 via Tapatalk

I'm afraid you don't get to have a say in when the masking is removed, as I imagine that's entirely up to Mootles' convenience. As for RPs etc, as I understand it there should be no issue with you partaking

This is correct.  Your mask is changed, and I believe this bars you from being in the UH and from being in the military.  However, both citizens and non-citizens can take part in games and RPs and other general forum affairs, so you're fine in that department.

Technically you'd also lose ownership of your Familial House as per decree 004 (it'd go to the most active that is still a citizen, aka TaintedPaws), but that's up to the discretion of the Monarch or from one of the RP guild officials since it's become more of an RP thing than anything.

And it's done. It now has a majority in the OH. Gov, I hope you take everything we've said to heart, because the ice only gets thinner from here on out.

I would like a chance to make a statement before the citizenship masking is changed, please? 

I have a job interview and another screen very soon.

Also, am I still able to take part in Werewolf / any RP?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 via Tapatalk

I'm afraid you don't get to have a say in when the masking is removed, as I imagine that's entirely up to Mootles' convenience. As for RPs etc, as I understand it there should be no issue with you partaking

This is correct.  Your mask is changed, and I believe this bars you from being in the UH and from being in the military.  However, both citizens and non-citizens can take part in games and RPs and other general forum affairs, so you're fine in that department.

Technically you'd also lose ownership of your Familial House as per decree 004 (it'd go to the most active that is still a citizen, aka TaintedPaws), but that's up to the discretion of the Monarch or from one of the RP guild officials since it's become more of an RP thing than anything.

As for Werewolf and RPs, you should have no problem participating in those.
As for Decree 004:

2(a) In the event that the Patriarch or Matriarch of a House becomes a non-Citizen, the House shall have the right to choose its next head according to its own customs and processes.

The House members are free to choose their next (M/P)atriarch as they please. I suggest setting up a meeting between the members of the House to get its affairs in order.

As for Decree 004:

2(a) In the event that the Patriarch or Matriarch of a House becomes a non-Citizen, the House shall have the right to choose its next head according to its own customs and processes.

The House members are free to choose their next (M/P)atriarch as they please. I suggest setting up a meeting between the members of the House to get its affairs in order.

The problem with that is that as I stated, he's the only active person in his house right now, so a meeting may be quite impossible.  But since it's up to the discretion of the RP guild/monarch, they could always make an exception in his case, especially since as I said it's more an RP thing now than anything else.

I hadn't considered the activity, or lack thereof, of the House members. My bad. The Monarch really has the final decision, then, although he may end up delegating that responsibility to RP Guild members.

Actually, I imagine it would ideally be delegated to the Ministry of Culture as an whole. Let's start a topic to discuss this.