[12:59 AM] Wintermoot: I think it's pretty unfortunate that nobody in the RP area ultimately rose to the occassion to take the position...hopefully Gerrick can fill the vacancy or manage things himself. The good news is that we have good people for three positions, and we can definitely focus on improving those areas :smile:
[1:03 AM] Govindia: hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
[1:03 AM] Wintermoot: Hi
[1:04 AM] Govindia: so there wasn't really drama earlier regarding me,
@Wintermoot , I was trying to have civil movie discussion with Johanna and tatte, and Emil and Chanku were being dicks.
[1:04 AM] Govindia: Emil being the drama loving weeaboo otaku
[1:05 AM] Wintermoot: How can be no drama if he's a 'drama loving weeaboo'?
[1:05 AM] Govindia: i wasn't causing drama, other people were.
[1:05 AM] Govindia: Just because I am speaking with people does not mean there is drama caused by me. Ya'll need to chill the fuck out with that shit
[1:06 AM] Govindia: Contrary to what you may believe in, I do enjoy sometimes discussion with the Nordic peoples of Wintreath
[1:06 AM] Govindia: compared to other people here
[1:08 AM] Wintermoot: Well,
@tatte seems to be in your corner, at least
[1:09 AM] Govindia: I saw, he has a point. There's not really much room for me to work with if people aren't going to adapt and give me a chance to improve myself if people are going to be a bunch of dicks in assholes
[1:09 AM] Govindia: something something something dicks pussies assholes speech Team America
[1:09 AM] Wintermoot: You've spent the last four years telling people they need to adapt to you because you're different, because you were raised a different way, or whatever...communities don't change to adapt to individuals
[1:10 AM] Govindia: communities adapt for people who have social issues, who are LGBTQ, who have social disabilities, who are autistic etc.
[1:10 AM] Attero: u finally have an avatar
@Wintermoot[1:10 AM] Govindia: while helping them become a better part of that community
[1:11 AM] Wintermoot: Those are portions of a community, not individuals
[1:11 AM] Govindia: it works both ways, buddy.
[1:11 AM] Govindia: it's not one sided. A person can only do so much to try to adapt to a community, but a community should also do their part in return, you included
@Wintermoot[1:11 AM] Wintermoot: @Attero Yes, suprisingly enough Yuno sent me some suggestions and this was one of them. Surprising since we don't really talk. :stuck_out_tongue:
[1:12 AM] Govindia: Please keep in mind what I said, seriously this time,
@Wintermoot . Not "noted" and then throw it out the fucking window
[1:13 AM] Govindia: would you please,
@Wintermoot ?
[1:15 AM] Doc: I'm willing to agree that you're right, to an extent. But those times a community adapts are to a thing a person has no control over, like, as you said, differing sexualities or not being neurotypical.
The question is, that the case for you, or is it a case of being unwilling to change a facet of your personality that it seems to me that a lot of people find troubling?
[1:16 AM] Govindia: neurotypical? huh?
[1:16 AM] Govindia: your second question I don't fully understand,
@Doc[1:16 AM] Govindia: Also why do you sound vaguely familiar. Have we spoken on IRC / forums before?
[1:19 AM] Doc: returning to the election thing, however;
@Wintermoot - it's certainly possible that given the rough weather a lot of parts have had that people might have simply been unable to (totally not pointing at myself as an example, even though I didn't run in the first place). Can't...quite give Ashton that consideration, since he has posted on the RMB that I can see - but maybe giving an extension until the ostensible time of the electoral period might be merited
[1:20 AM] Wintermoot: The fact of the matter is, over the years you've upset, frustrated, and pissed off a lot of people in this community, including me, and that's something you're going to have to overcome.
[1:21 AM] Doc: and neurotypical is falling within the perceived general norms of brain or social function - so someone with autism would not be neurotypical, and if there's a better way to put that i can't think of it right now
[1:23 AM] Doc: as for the second question, essentially its saying - do you have some disability that the community clearly should have some sort of obligation to acknowledge and adapt to (even if such issues may be more or less manageable over the internet - e.g. tourette's syndrome may not be a factor that people need to adapt to, since it's a verbal tic, not a typed one), or are you just refusing to change behavior people find troubling because it seems like a lot of effort?
[1:23 AM] Doc: and - no, not in those cases. here, a couple of times over some things
[1:25 AM] Wintermoot:
@Doc, I don't think the weather was an issue in their cases...the fact of the matter is, the election schedule was published two weeks ago and there was plenty of time to make a campaign, which was as simple as answering a few questions.
[1:25 AM] Govindia:
@Wintermoot, my point remains. It is a new year, and it is pointless to continue to harbour a grudge to me, just as you want me to get over things with other people assuredly. That's why I asked you to please seriously keep in mind what I said. I realised I have upset you and others, and I am willing to make amends, but you and others need to give me the opportunity to do so, and that does include an adaptation of attitudes. It's not just me that has shit to work on. It's a two way street - it's you all as well. Some moreso than others.
@Doc , I believe, from what others have noticed, and from my interactions with others, my form of autism, if it is Aspergers, or some blend of autism and ADHD, could be a disability, particularly with how I process things and interact with people directly, that is, moreso hard-wiring than merely a, what would you say, a change to the programming code, if you will
[1:26 AM] Doc: yeaaaaaah...i just feel some sort of need to defend them because ashton and aragonn would be good picks and that's why i didn't run against them
[1:26 AM] Wintermoot: Ultimately one of the purposes of the election was to restore meritocracy to the Cabinet, and I can't in good conscience feel we're doing that if we make allowances for people who didn't take the time and effort to do one thing.
[1:26 AM] Doc: well i might suggest getting that shit diagnosed and then getting help with managing it, because i can sit here and diagnose people with cancer all day and it won't mean they've actually got it
[1:27 AM] Govindia: i would have loved to be an RP Thane had I been a citizen, but I don't think I have the time right now and I'm just starting to get my financial shit in order.
[1:27 AM] Wintermoot: I agree they would be good picks, but they have to be motivated and be willing and able to put in the time
[1:27 AM] Govindia:
@Doc , I have to go through the state for that. My insurance does not let me diagnose it with their specialists as an adult, they only do that with kids.
[1:28 AM] Govindia: and to get a diagnosis from the state requires 50+ pages of paperwork, and an interview, and something else :confused:
[1:28 AM] Doc: i mean i don't wanna be shady or anything, but people make allowances generally to meet people halfway, not pick them up and sprint across the finish line with them
[1:29 AM] Govindia: and yes, all I'm asking here is people to meet me halfway on my shit. I have not seen that happen. Only half-attempts.
[1:29 AM] Doc: i don't really have an answer for that then. but there's only so far most people are willing to reach out, and from what i've seen it seems that people have reached out pretty dang far and gotten burned for their trouble. once bitten, twice shy, all that shit
[1:29 AM] Govindia: and mind you I have gone out of my way to be supportive of other people when they were down.
[1:29 AM] Doc:
@Wintermoot yeah fair. dangit i shoulda run
[1:29 AM] Govindia: I went out of my way to get Nox a Comic Con Exclusive plushy to help when she was really depressed.
[1:30 AM] Govindia: I offered to help someone buy their meds, someone who still accused me of bigotry becauise of my affiliation.
[1:30 AM] Govindia: I donated at least 100 to the region.
[1:30 AM] Wintermoot: If you're interested, you could always contact Gerrick.
[1:30 AM] Wintermoot: What? lol
[1:30 AM] Wintermoot: You donated $10 to the region
[1:31 AM] Wintermoot:
http://wintreath.com/donate/[1:31 AM] Doc: look, i get that you feel you've made the effort to reach out. maybe you genuinely have. but thus far from what i've seen, i've seen a lot of unprovoked hostility towards Chanku and Tatte
[1:31 AM] Govindia:
@Doc , not many people reached out well. Like I said, they tried, but they didn't do a full attempt.
[1:31 AM] Govindia: I could have sworn I donated more than 10
[1:31 AM] Wintermoot: See? That's the shit that pisses me off...you exaggerate or downplay things you've said or done to make yourself look good
[1:32 AM] Doc: so, shit, if you want people to say 'new year, clean slate' - maybe lead by example and others will follow
[1:32 AM] Govindia: tatte not so much, Chanku yes, because Chanku has been an asshole to me to the point that as a base human, he thinks I'm beneath any form of basic decency when he promised in writing to the region he will respect everyone
[1:32 AM] Govindia: and then he cherry picks who he shows basic courtesy too. That arrogance and snootiness angers me.
[1:33 AM] Govindia: especially a betrayal of a promise. I take people's word as their bond
[1:33 AM] Govindia: so if they say they will do something, I expect them to do it, just as it is expected of me by others.
[1:33 AM] Doc: chanku was also, up until very recently, not an adult. generally speaking, those same allowances you spoke of are made for adolescents. that's sort of the tradeoff you implicitly make when you do a thing where a large proportion of the people involved are pretty young, like NS
[1:34 AM] Govindia:
@Wintermoot I apologise I wasn't trying to exaggerate, but I thought I honestly donated more than 10
[1:34 AM] Wintermoot: I keep very meticulous donation records...the only four people to donate more than $100 are North, HannahB, Evelynx, and Sachem
[1:34 AM] Govindia:
@Doc Hugsim is younger than Chanku when I first met them both, and Hugsim has never been an asshole to me. He knows how to respect people as human beings
[1:34 AM] Govindia: so age isnot an excuse
[1:35 AM] Govindia: when I see people who were younger than CHanku and more mature
[1:35 AM] Doc: from what he's told me, though, you consistently belittled him for his age, rather than giving him the modicum of respect members of a community generally provide each other. so it seems to cut both ways here
[1:35 AM] Doc: and it absolutely is
[1:35 AM] Doc: sure, there's occasions in which we see that someone is 'mature for his age' - but the key element is 'for his age'
[1:35 AM] Wintermoot: In fairness, Chanku has really matured over the last year, but you two have this rivalry and you both inflame it
[1:35 AM] Govindia: Even when Chanku saw me here, he didn't change two years later. He pretty much attacked me for my presence here, attacked Wintermoot, and got in a feud with tatte over it.
[1:35 AM] Doc: relative maturity or immaturity are not grounds by which a judge decides to try a minor as an adult, for example
[1:36 AM] Govindia: I call bullshit on maturity. If he really matured, he would have been nicer to me when he saw me back in the channel.
[1:36 AM] Doc: pause.
[1:36 AM] Doc: are you legitimately telling me that after you've seen someone you had a strong dislike for once upon a time you'd just say 'eh, let bygones be bygones' and let it go?
[1:37 AM] Govindia: I have tried to be reasonable with him, but he just keeps on shitting on me to the point that he's a dick. With his behaviour, it makes tatte look like a decent guy, and tatte even admits he's an asshole.
[1:37 AM] Govindia: Yes, if he really got the fuck over himself and was civil with me.
[1:37 AM] Govindia: because why the fuck would I harbour a grudge over him?
[1:37 AM] Wintermoot: Doesn't sound like you're being civil with him...even here you're calling him a dick and an asshole
[1:38 AM] Govindia: it's not like he accused me of being a child molestor supporter because I'm a Republican
[1:38 AM] Govindia: or made jokes about my dead mother
[1:38 AM] Doc: well, if that's the case, lead by example. be civil. you catch more flies with honey and shit.
[1:38 AM] Govindia: or attacked my family
[1:38 AM] Doc: i've certainly not seen that. admittedly i haven't exactly looked too hard, but that doesn't seem to sound like him from what i know of him
[1:38 AM] Govindia: I'm fucking direct, I have no filter. I call it as I see it. If it looks like a dick, walks like a dick, fucks in the ass like a dick, it's a dick.
[1:39 AM] Doc: well probably amend that
[1:39 AM] Wintermoot: Maybe he's direct and has no filter too lol
[1:39 AM] Doc: because i've been filtering a great deal in this conversation and i could be a lot more blunt
[1:39 AM] Doc: but i don't, because of, like you said, the respect that community members should provide each other as a baseline.
[1:39 AM] Govindia: I've tried to mend fences with him, but he wants to make excuses for not showing respect to me.
[1:39 AM] Govindia: and I'm sorry, but there's no excuse for not showing basic civility to other people, citizen or no citizen.
[1:40 AM] Doc: and, what, having no filter constitutes basic civility?
[1:40 AM] Govindia: and he has never been punished for his behaviour as I have.
[1:40 AM] Govindia: You can still be civil and be a pottymouth
[1:40 AM] Wintermoot: I'm not aware of any actionable behaviour on his part recently. He was tempbanned several times on IRC for thigns he said towards you
[1:41 AM] Doc: there is a significant difference between someone (realistically, me) using 'fuck' as an interstital word, and actively insulting someone
[1:41 AM] Govindia: he had lesser bans than I had, and he didn't get his citizenship stripped?
[1:41 AM] Wintermoot: You got your Citizenship stripped for a number of reasons
[1:42 AM] Doc: As I recall from my admittedly brief overview of the...process, he also wasn't indicted for harassment of multiple people.
[1:42 AM] Govindia: And I tried to respond to those things, but my lengthy response was ignored.
[1:42 AM] Wintermoot: It wasn't ignored, it just paled on comparison with your actions
[1:42 AM] Govindia: no one wanted to hear what I said, despite me being allowed time to write it.
[1:42 AM] Govindia: no one addressed anything I said in it.
[1:43 AM] Doc: As I further recall from that, multiple extensions were given to you, suggesting that people were willing to give you a fair shake. If nobody gave a shit, they'd just say 'eat a dick time's up'.
Since we're doing 'no filter'.
[1:43 AM] Govindia: perhaps they were being nice, but did they actually take time to read what I said? To understand what I wrote?
[1:44 AM] Doc: shit, i dunno, like i said i skimmed it
[1:44 AM] Govindia: their responses, did not seem to indicate it. They were still focused ontheir emotions towards me, none of which were positive.
[1:44 AM] Govindia: "skimmed it". Thanks
@Doc for proving my point
[1:44 AM] Wintermoot: If I recall, many members of the Storting either responded to or mentioned your post in their response
[1:44 AM] Doc: i probably shouldn't read it any deeper, since it would likely be prejudicial, since all the people involved have, to my mind, been pretty fair about things
[1:44 AM] Govindia: I don't know what they said in the STorting, I'm not sure if that area was viewable to me when it happened.
[1:45 AM] Doc: and i didn't say i skimmed your post in particular - I said I skimmed the whole topic
[1:45 AM] Govindia: Maybe some were fair, some were definitely not impartial.
[1:45 AM] Wintermoot: It's viewable to Citizens and non-Citizens
[1:46 AM] Doc: i don't mean about your trial in particular, because, again, skimmed it, but the people i'm aware of who were involved have been, if not unimpeachable, then certainly unimnectarineable, in their conduct as i've seen it
[1:46 AM] Doc: i will pause now to go feel smug about my shitty wordplay for a minute
[1:47 AM] Govindia: unimnectarineable? huh?
[1:47 AM] Wintermoot: chuckles
[1:47 AM] Govindia: is that even a word?
[1:47 AM] Doc: peach. nectarine. come on
[1:47 AM] Doc: WORK WITH ME
[1:47 AM] Govindia: oh
[1:47 AM] Govindia: lol
[1:47 AM] Govindia: i see now
[1:48 AM] Govindia: yeah this subtlety thing here I don't understand as part of my whole direct nature thing
[1:48 AM] Doc: it's not subtlety though it's literally just shitty wordplay
[1:48 AM] Govindia: i didn't pick up on it at first
[1:48 AM] Govindia: also, yeah, I'm direct, always. I struggle with tact
[1:49 AM] Govindia: like i said guys, I am willing to make amends, but people need to meet me halfway and work with me. It's a two way street.
[1:49 AM] Govindia: Please, can you at least keep in mind what I have explained here,
@Wintermoot ?
[1:53 AM] Doc: i mean, make that plea all you want, man. i'm just saying that if you make clear your intention to meet people halfway, by getting to that halfway point first (or, who knows, the 60% marker even), you're a lot more likely to get people to think 'huh, perhaps this is a genuine change that i should encourage' instead of 'how suspicious should i be'
[1:54 AM] Wintermoot: We'll see...I haven't seen much in the way of actual change
[1:54 AM] Govindia: again, i've had civil conversations with some people, others tried to stir the pot, which you apparent'y didn't realise.
[1:55 AM] Govindia: and hell tatte seems to stick up for me, which I appreciate, and was surprised. Before he gave zero fucks
[1:55 AM] Wintermoot: What I realize is that you still default to blaming other people for anyting involving you
[1:56 AM] Govindia: Not everything involving me is for me to get blame for. That's something you need to work on. Holding other people accountable and not scapegoating me as the cause just because I was in the conversation.
[1:56 AM] Govindia: "Oh he was talking about something with others, and people got upset? It must have been Gov who started it"
[1:57 AM] Wintermoot: But that's the thing, you think everything against you is unfair...you really don't feel you've done any wrong.
[1:57 AM] Govindia: not "Oh Chanku and Emil were trying to troll me and even after tatte told them to not be asses they still did shit."
[1:57 AM] Wintermoot: You even just pretty much said your revocation of Citizenship was unfair
[1:57 AM] Govindia: where did I just say that?
[1:57 AM] Wintermoot: When you said Chanku didn't have his Citizenship revoked
[1:58 AM] Wintermoot: And then when you said nobody considered your post
[2:00 AM] Govindia: in other regions, chanku's actions would have gotten his citizenship lost, and I feel that his treatment towards me, when it came to it, was lenient in terms of how he was dealt with
[2:00 AM] Govindia: and I don't know how much people actually took what I said seriously
[2:01 AM] Wintermoot: The problem is, you were just as bad as he was...you were doing it to each other.
[2:01 AM] Govindia: I still have mixed emotions about the revocation
[2:01 AM] Wintermoot: You're not blameless in your ongoing feud with Chanku
[2:01 AM] Wintermoot: You've both been punished before for your actions towards each other
[2:02 AM] Govindia: i never stated iwas, i stated I made attempts to directly make peace with him.
[2:02 AM] Wintermoot: However, your revocation had nothing to do with Chanku
[2:02 AM] Govindia: and it was rejected
[2:02 AM] Wintermoot: And Chanku hadn't pestered and harassed multiple members of the community
[2:07 AM] Govindia: Chanku did troll and harass me multiple times
[2:07 AM] Wintermoot: And he was punished for it
[2:07 AM] Wintermoot: There's not an equivalency between your actions and his actions
[2:08 AM] Govindia: all I saw was you removed him from family, and banned him for a few hours where you deliberately kept me banned for longer despite my ban length being the same time as he was, and the excuse you had was you were "busy"
[2:08 AM] Wintermoot: I saw the chat logs that led to your probation and ban from IRC, and I know what it was like when I banned you from Civ games...your actions were much, much worse
[2:09 AM] Wintermoot: Emotionally abusing someone != someone saying 'fuck you' a hundred times
[2:09 AM] Govindia: emoltional abuse?
[2:09 AM] Wintermoot: Like I said, I read the chat logs
[2:11 AM] Govindia: Being direct with someone is not emotionally abusive
[2:11 AM] Govindia: not everyone in there knows apparently how to be direct with someone when they have an issue
[2:12 AM] Govindia: this is basic conflict resolution 101 that you get taught about in school
[2:12 AM] Govindia: if you have a problem with someone, be assertive and talk to them about it in a mature manner, and talk that shit out to find a peaceful resolotuion
[2:12 AM] Govindia: don't be passive aggressive about it
[2:16 AM] Wintermoot: shrugs
[2:16 AM] Wintermoot: I just realized this is a conversation right out of three years ago
[2:18 AM] Wintermoot: I'm honestly tired of hearing about how people need to adapt to you being 'direct', after three years it reads like an excuse.
[2:21 AM] Wintermoot: I allowed you on this Discord server because I was going through a lot of shit at the time and I was feeling mercifcul...I hoped that you had changed your behaviour after two years, but it's becoming clear now that not only have you not changed, you still believe that there was nothing wrong with the behaviour that led to getting banned from IRC or your Citizenship revoked to start with.
[2:21 AM] Govindia: it isn't an excuse
[2:21 AM] Govindia: I never said I didn't regret my actions.
[2:22 AM] Govindia: Don't put words in my mouth, please.
[2:22 AM] Wintermoot: And if we're being 'direct', I'm tired of having to deal with you here and deal with the shit that comes with the region that 'harbors Govindia'. I've put up with both for far too long.
[2:23 AM] Govindia: It's not a lot to ask for when it comes to asking people to be direct.
I have said I am willing to work on my end.
[2:23 AM] Govindia: but I am asking people to be realistic too, it is atwo way street. Tatte pointed it out when he spoke to you
[2:23 AM] Wintermoot: So if you feel you're treated unfairly here, then I'm sorry, but I think you've been treated very fairly and even graciously. If you're not happy with things here, you're free to go to another region.
[2:24 AM] Govindia: You had just said you would keep in mind what I was saying.
[2:25 AM] Govindia: I said I was willing to make amends and work on what I need to do on my end. I would like people to cooperate and work with me as well please.
[2:25 AM] Wintermoot: I said, 'we'll see'. That was contingent on seeing actual change from you.
[2:26 AM] Govindia: it's not going to happen instantly. i also have shit to deal with too.
[2:26 AM] Govindia: you're not the only one that has stuff going on outside of NS.
[2:27 AM] Wintermoot: From where I stand, you have a long, long way to go. I'm not optimistic
[2:28 AM] Wintermoot: Especially in light of this discussion.
[2:28 AM] Govindia: Like I said, it's a two way street, but Iwill do what I can to keep my side in order.
[2:29 AM] Wintermoot: I certainly hope so
[2:31 AM] Govindia: and same with you
[2:36 AM] thechurchofsatan: So I decided against the desktop I had my eye on and bought a gaming laptop the other day. I can resume my former internet presence at long last!
[2:36 AM] Govindia: wb @thechurchofsatan
[2:37 AM] Govindia: Happy Mew YEar
[2:37 AM] thechurchofsatan: Even better, Allods Online is still around after all these years and I can play where I left off!!!!!!!
[2:37 AM] Govindia: Happy Mew Year @thechurchofsatan
[2:37 AM] thechurchofsatan: Happy New Years Gov. :smiley:
[2:39 AM] thechurchofsatan: I started playing runescape yesterday again too. Wish I could have got into my old account but it might be best that I start over anyways. So much of it has changed since I last played.
