View Topic

I hate the taggers, I don't understand the point. If I was going to do something, I figure you either go all the way or fucking forget it. Partial conquest to me is like partial surgery, not good enough!

Don't think of tagging as conquering a region, think of it as graffitiing an abandoned building. Additionally occupations can take weeks or months, and constant vigilance from the raider BC officers to turn off defender jumps. Tagging takes only an update and can hit dozens of regions in that short time. They have fundamentally different goals. Occupations destroy regions. Tagging is just putting some promotional material on some already dead stuff. Additionally tagging is a lot more fast paced given they have to contend with fenda chasers. The more people you have the better you are against them, and everyone gets to be active. Occupations require pilers, but the only people who you benefit from being active are the BC officers. imo tagging is much better than occupations. Tagging harms no one, occupations kill communities.

Speaking from experience, taggers do also occasionally target slow-paced communities with low RMB activity as well, oftentimes with activity concealed due to having moved more off-site to forums or Discord (and as a result, founder CTE also doesn't get noticed until it's too late). I would therefore extend your analogy to vandalism of any low-security building rather than just abandoned ones.

To be honest, I'm always a bit worried someone might have a problem with some of my worst decisions in NS, but alas, I might also have been completely forgotten to history so meh, as long as I'm not causing Wintreath a problem, I'm happy with what we decide to do for the most part. As long as I don't have to talk to anyone I don't want to talk to. I might also want to open relations between Wintreath and my own region, but that's just my own selfish hope.

In some ways Wintreath marches to the beat of its own drum, most prominently in accepting people that other regions might have a problem with. Sometimes that's just people who are disliked. In other cases it's people who have been banned elsewhere. In that latter case, of course we don't just take in anybody of course...it depends on what exactly they did, whether they recognize their behaviour was wrong, and whether they're committed to improvement or have already improved. Unfortunately, there's also cases where regions exaggerate or make up claims against people, and so we have to make our own judgements based on the evidence that's available to us on a case by case basis.

That being said, sometimes other regions may not agree with our judgement. When that happens, hopefully those differences can be navigated, but it's also possible they're irreconcilable. But even then, I don't think it's an issue of any one person causing a problem.

In terms of Wintreath's foreign affairs, I think having embassies with other regions, even if there is minimal activity between us, is a good thing. Even if we don't have active relations with a region, having an embassy open with them shows that there is still an amount of friendliness between our regions. For an embassy to be closed I think it should require someone to request a review of said embassy. Routine reviews of embassies would also be fine, but should be significantly less stringent than any investigation coming from a specific request to review. Routine reviews should only serve to clear out regions that are very clearly dead.

I'm not concerned with minimal activity, but no activity at all over the course of a long time. Sometimes regions have emergencies that prevent them from conducting FA, just as we've had, and that's understandable. But in other cases it feels like there's just no interest on either side and no informal relations that would justify holding on...kinda like something thrown in the closet that we haven't used in ages, but don't want to get rid of because what if we could use it in the future?

I read some advice a few years back that if you haven't used something in a year, it's time to let it go. It's proven to be good advice in my life, and I suspect it would be good advice here too.

However, I don't think we need to resolve this issue to restart a FA program. It's possible that things would change once we sent ambassadors, or at the very least we'd have additional evidence where relations are dead beyond any interest in reviving. We could review things in spring, see where things stand, and then return to this particular aspect of discussion.

In terms of reviewing citizenship, I think that would be a good thing, although there are many many ways to do it that would be undoubtedly poor. I think one way we could clear out inactive citizens would be to have routine checks where citizens must respond to show a wish to retain citizenship. Having it on a consistent schedule, like requiring a simple response on the first week of every month or something would allow people to easily maintain it while clearing out inactive people. I think that frequent announcements for it would be needed so that way active people don't miss it (and perhaps responding to said announcement if it's on discord would count too), but I don't think anyone should be pinged for it, that way we don't summon inactive people who don't actually care. Pinging people on these forums would probably be fine though imo, because people aren't likely to see a ping here unless they're active. I think that missing two responses in sequence would then be the threshold of losing citizenship.

I definitely agree with not pinging people. What happened a lot of times with Citizenship checks in old Wintreath was that people were pinged for inactivity, revived their NS nation, then went inactive again until the next time they were pinged. The truth is, they weren't interested in Wintreath anymore but felt obligated to maintain their Citizenship. And we shouldn't consider having Citizenship or maintaining it to be an obligation...it should be a natural byproduct of their interest and care. I want people to be here because they want to be, not because they feel obligated to be.

That's why basing it on having made a single-post on the RMB, Discord, or the forums is probably the best way to hone in on people who have lost interest without punishing people who are busy or who are only around once in awhile (which is ok!). It's based on what people are already doing anyways and doesn't create an obligation. It's not something that's going to punish anyone if they happen to be away the wrong week. And it should be easy to manage too...a script would let me know if someone hasn't posted on the RMB or forums, and doing Discord searches for the number of Citizens we have should take less than 15 minutes. We could add something inviting people to respond if they want to maintain Citizenship, preferably in addition to this, but if they haven't made a post anywhere in 6 months or a year I'm not sure they're going to do it here either unless they're pinged (which goes back to obligation)...but we could experiment and see.

Nice idea, that reminds me of a micronation I'm in that maintains citizenship by emailing everyone once a year to confirm that they still want to stay citizens.

Not related at all, but that sounds cool! It'd be interesting to hear more about your experiences with micronations and what led you to join one.

I get emails for pings here so I see them easily. Was surprised to learn that this seems uncommon, did I turn that on myself or was that changed as a default setting after I joined?

I get emails for pings here so I see them easily. Was surprised to learn that this seems uncommon, did I turn that on myself or was that changed as a default setting after I joined?

I don't know...it's hard to remember everything over the course of 11 years.

Years back I created notification option settings in the New User CP, and you may have opted into them at that time. They could have been by default at one time too. Over the years email providers have come to look down on automated emails that aren't opt-in, and we've had a few cases where our notification emails were reported as spam, so it's possible I could have changed it based on that.

I get emails for pings here so I see them easily. Was surprised to learn that this seems uncommon, did I turn that on myself or was that changed as a default setting after I joined?

I don't know...it's hard to remember everything over the course of 11 years.

Years back I created notification option settings in the New User CP, and you may have opted into them at that time. They could have been by default at one time too. Over the years email providers have come to look down on automated emails that aren't opt-in, and we've had a few cases where our notification emails were reported as spam, so it's possible I could have changed it based on that.

I do remember it took some effort to get those emails to stop going to spam haha

I do remember it took some effort to get those emails to stop going to spam haha

We used to send a happy birthday email to people who had put their birthday in the forums...eventually stopped cause there were quite a few people who were not happy about our happy birthday email lol.

In fairness, I get it. At one point I'd get 20 of those emails from sites I hadn't been a part of for years...it was a little annoying. I think websites have stopped sending those in general, cause I don't think I get them anymore.

So in a nutshell, how would foreign affairs work for modern Wintreath?

Well it'd need to be something that benefits an agenda for the community/region - and if there's no such motivation that requires an external facing presence then you have your answer: you don't need a foreign policy, presence or anything related to it.

You don't even need to maintain embassies, consulates or a diplomatic service if your aim for the community is to be a relaxing place to chill out, game and be a safe space for its members then you can do all of that without needing a foreign policy.

Do you even want the workload that comes with a foreign policy and all it entails? I can't imagine having to do all of that again, gone are the days where I could plot the foreign policy of a feeder, sinker or anywhere else and I had quite the impressive resume. Eventually I realised that unless it benefits the community you want to build, and your community understands why and actively wants an external presence, there isn't any reason to have one.

I don't think Wintreath needs a foreign policy, or presence; and that includes no embassies or consulates. 

Let visitors come, and let them join the Discord, post on the RMB, or post on the forum - but don't give them a special section. By all means give them a mask or group on the forum, but I don't see why you should as it's just admin work. In the same vein, don't maintain a diplomatic service because there's no point to it - Wintreath doesn't need to maintain one, and it formalises something that should be better spent on recruiting and integrating new people in different avenues not spent in the game on a thankless task that ultimately wouldn't benefit Wintreath at all.

A foreign policy is only for a region which craves acceptance and approval from those around it, and Wintreath has shown it can stand on its own merits with or without the approval of fair-weather and often capricious third parties who are jealous of its longevity and bonds that few communities can form naturally. I've seen both good and bad in politics heavy communities, and I vastly prefer the communities where political systems are roleplay only and the general community exists to be chill, relax and enjoy each other's company with no expectation of anything else.

So in a nutshell, how would foreign affairs work for modern Wintreath?

Well it'd need to be something that benefits an agenda for the community/region - and if there's no such motivation that requires an external facing presence then you have your answer: you don't need a foreign policy, presence or anything related to it.

You don't even need to maintain embassies, consulates or a diplomatic service if your aim for the community is to be a relaxing place to chill out, game and be a safe space for its members then you can do all of that without needing a foreign policy.

Do you even want the workload that comes with a foreign policy and all it entails? I can't imagine having to do all of that again, gone are the days where I could plot the foreign policy of a feeder, sinker or anywhere else and I had quite the impressive resume. Eventually I realised that unless it benefits the community you want to build, and your community understands why and actively wants an external presence, there isn't any reason to have one.

I don't think Wintreath needs a foreign policy, or presence; and that includes no embassies or consulates.

Let visitors come, and let them join the Discord, post on the RMB, or post on the forum - but don't give them a special section. By all means give them a mask or group on the forum, but I don't see why you should as it's just admin work. In the same vein, don't maintain a diplomatic service because there's no point to it - Wintreath doesn't need to maintain one, and it formalises something that should be better spent on recruiting and integrating new people in different avenues not spent in the game on a thankless task that ultimately wouldn't benefit Wintreath at all.

A foreign policy is only for a region which craves acceptance and approval from those around it, and Wintreath has shown it can stand on its own merits with or without the approval of fair-weather and often capricious third parties who are jealous of its longevity and bonds that few communities can form naturally. I've seen both good and bad in politics heavy communities, and I vastly prefer the communities where political systems are roleplay only and the general community exists to be chill, relax and enjoy each other's company with no expectation of anything else.

I agree that we don't need to make press releases or necessarily send ambassadors to others, but if there are people who want to make them (because they find it fun, not out of a desire to involve wintreath in interregional politics) then it's not something we shouldn't allow.

Embassies allow others to post in our RMB and participate in our community, and allow us to post in other region's RMB. Even without the desire to have foreign policy this contributes to our ability to have a more open and welcoming community. 

There is no harm in having friendly relations with others. Like you said we aren't here to jump through hoops to get approval from others regions, so regions that impose such hoops expecting people to jump through should be ignored. However, we can still have friendship with other regions without necessarily seeking out their approval.  If maintaining a friendly relationship requires nothing of us beyond simply having an embassy open then there's no reason not to.

I agree that we can stand on our own merits, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we should or have to.

Foreign affairs for a small, uninvolved UCR community like Wintreath is nowhere near as demanding as foreign affairs for a feeder/sinker or even a prominent UCR. Most of our relations are with other small to mid-sized UCRs with no involvement in NSGP, with a few exceptions...they're in the same place as us, so the expectations are minor. I ran FA mostly on my own for over a year, and it wasn't much effort...just the occasional appearance at an event or answering a DM.

It's been claimed to me...though I have a hard time believing it...that some people in other regions have a fascination with Wintreath, in a good way. We get visitors to our community that I don't think we would get without our links, and if we were to do things like start games or do events it would be a good venue to build on those relations. The key is to make sure the regions we have relations with fit with who we are and what we're doing, and I think most of them do.

In terms of reviewing citizenship, I think that would be a good thing, although there are many many ways to do it that would be undoubtedly poor. I think one way we could clear out inactive citizens would be to have routine checks where citizens must respond to show a wish to retain citizenship. Having it on a consistent schedule, like requiring a simple response on the first week of every month or something would allow people to easily maintain it while clearing out inactive people. I think that frequent announcements for it would be needed so that way active people don't miss it (and perhaps responding to said announcement if it's on discord would count too), but I don't think anyone should be pinged for it, that way we don't summon inactive people who don't actually care. Pinging people on these forums would probably be fine though imo, because people aren't likely to see a ping here unless they're active. I think that missing two responses in sequence would then be the threshold of losing citizenship.

I've been thinking more about this proposal and increasingly find it unappealing. We used to do monthly citizenship checks and I feel like removing them was a good thing which both freed up busywork for Wintermoot and helped make Wintreath more welcoming, as well as making citizenship feel less like an obligation which had to be renewed. Doing some sort of monthly thread where people have to remember, without any pings to remind them, to check in, seems to up the obligation feeling even more than the old system IMO.

On Discord we are currently discussing privileges for ex-citizens (eg hangout participation) and making citizenship a natural byproduct of inactivity. I think that if reapplying for citizenship is as it was previously, then this just creates a two-tiered citizenship system. Instead, building off the naturalness idea, what if losing and regaining citizenship is fully automated? Let's say, two months after your last forum post or Discord message, you automatically get masked to Former Citizen. And upon making another post/message you automatically get remasked back to Citizen. This makes things fully seamless and natural, makes citizenship a true marker of activity, and continues to make things welcoming to anyone who has lost citizenship and wants to come back.

On Discord we are currently discussing privileges for ex-citizens (eg hangout participation) and making citizenship a natural byproduct of inactivity. I think that if reapplying for citizenship is as it was previously, then this just creates a two-tiered citizenship system. Instead, building off the naturalness idea, what if losing and regaining citizenship is fully automated? Let's say, two months after your last forum post or Discord message, you automatically get masked to Former Citizen. And upon making another post/message you automatically get remasked back to Citizen. This makes things fully seamless and natural, makes citizenship a true marker of activity, and continues to make things welcoming to anyone who has lost citizenship and wants to come back.

I really like this idea, and fully support it if it can be feasibly implemented. The big problem with it is that someone has to program it.

On Discord we are currently discussing privileges for ex-citizens (eg hangout participation) and making citizenship a natural byproduct of inactivity. I think that if reapplying for citizenship is as it was previously, then this just creates a two-tiered citizenship system. Instead, building off the naturalness idea, what if losing and regaining citizenship is fully automated? Let's say, two months after your last forum post or Discord message, you automatically get masked to Former Citizen. And upon making another post/message you automatically get remasked back to Citizen. This makes things fully seamless and natural, makes citizenship a true marker of activity, and continues to make things welcoming to anyone who has lost citizenship and wants to come back.

I really like this idea, and fully support it if it can be feasibly implemented. The big problem with it is that someone has to program it.

The forum potentially has this feature built in already, but there won't be any communication with the Discord site of things unless it is specifically coded. Granted, I don't particularly like this idea - one of the reasons behind having these checks etc is so someone is able to keep a rough idea who is actively involved, who is new, who isn't etc.

We do collect RMB and forum stats...the forums do this out of the box, and since we've been importing RMB posts into Wintreath's database for years for the old forum newsfeed it's easy to do RMB stats as well. However, everything with Discord has always been manual, and there's no automated maskings.

When I checked on doing it with Discord some years ago, there didn't seem to be a great way to do it. If memory serves, the only way was to collect all posts for each month channel by channel and then create stats from that, and I decided it was just easier to do it manually through Discord searches. It's possible Discord has made this easier at this point, but I'd have to look into it.

I estimate it'd take about 20 minutes a month to do a Citizenship check, including using current scripts to detect Citizens who haven't posted on the RMB or forums and doing manual Discord searches, then handling the masking. I'm not sure how much time it'd take to code Discord stats, much less automated functionality, but I imagine it'd be at least a number of hours. I doubt it's something I could put together in the next few months with what I'm already doing with my job.

I would prefer to do manual checks at this time, with the option to switch to automated if it becomes timely/feasible.

If I'm remembering correctly the issue with existing free bots was that they don't count messages in private channels, is that correct?

There was an issue where bots weren't wanted in some private channels.

The bigger issue is that the free version of Statbot only keeps data for 30 days, which is why we had a subscription at one time. I also don't remember if you could look at everyone at a glance or if you had to look at them one by one, which would potentially be no better than doing manual Discord searches.