Poll

Do you want to start lynching by majority this round?

Yes
7 (87.5%)
No
1 (12.5%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Voting closed: February 24, 2021, 10:57:44 AM


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Werewolf 24: Attack on Titan
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Legacy of Smiles
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  • alright back to the game; again, sorry if I upset anyone

    A lot of people appear to be focusing on meta reads a good deal this game and this concerns me. Once players start becoming aware of their own meta, they can use it to enter the towncore as a wolf. Wolves can also leverage meta as an easy way to push a mislynch and look blameless after (it's fairly likely that this almost happened already with Minish almost being lynched D1 and Hapi actually being lynched).
    Meta is probably one of the most important tools in more vanillaish setups since mechanical information provided by roles is limited, tbh. People might say vote analysis is the key, but you need some mets to know if a person never busses or always votes last second to break ties as town, or any stuff like this. So in the end it boils down to the context of Meta in a way.

    Also, do you mean Michi almost being lynched? I remember people trying to throw paranoia shade on Minish but I don’t remember votes on her.
    I absolutely agree that meta is important and I use it myself (for example, my EME read is meta from their tone) but I'm just worried that people have been over-relying on it a bit. Meta is extremely useful but if a lot of our arguments are just meta and not much substance then what stops somebody from going "hey, X (townsperson) isn't acting like their last town game" and wolves getting a mislynch with zero accountability? Also the validity of a person's meta reads is really hard to tell so it's often hard to tell if the person making the reads is genuine or not.

    Just to reiterate: my point is never not to use meta, I would just support please making sure you don't forget to add in-game reasonings for reads/pushes if you can find any in addition to meta. I know it would certainly make my life easier.

    Sorry, I did mean Michi and got the two names confused in my head. Super sorry about this.
    2 people like this post: ExLight, TGN
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    TGN
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  • im getting good vibes from Legacy of Smiles
    I would say leaning town
    I’m probably on NS lol
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    Gerrick
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  • Like Legacy said, it's interesting how easily BSR is gaining traction for seemingly no reason. A BSR lynch would actually give me some decent info I think. It's interesting that he's had 4 posts according to Gerrick, since he didn't vote d1 and voted Vro d2. I need to check when exactly he voted for Vro. Because if it was when Silver's wagon was taking off then that looks not good. I could see an inactive scum being pinged by his scumbuds to come in and try to help save one of them.
    At the time BSR voted, here was the vote count:
    Vroendal (3): Doc, Gerrick, BSR
    TGN (6): cozmikrae, Sapphiron, Minish, Ruguo, TGN, Vroendal
    Sapphiron (1): Melehan

    So it was at the height of the TGN wagon and before the Ruguo wagon. I think his vote at that point is NAI since it could be just to get a vote on the second largest wagon while so many are jumping on TGN's or because he really thinks Vro is scum.
    2 people like this post: Minish, ExLight

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    NyghtOwl
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  • alright back to the game; again, sorry if I upset anyone

    A lot of people appear to be focusing on meta reads a good deal this game and this concerns me. Once players start becoming aware of their own meta, they can use it to enter the towncore as a wolf. Wolves can also leverage meta as an easy way to push a mislynch and look blameless after (it's fairly likely that this almost happened already with Minish almost being lynched D1 and Hapi actually being lynched).
    Meta is probably one of the most important tools in more vanillaish setups since mechanical information provided by roles is limited, tbh. People might say vote analysis is the key, but you need some mets to know if a person never busses or always votes last second to break ties as town, or any stuff like this. So in the end it boils down to the context of Meta in a way.

    Also, do you mean Michi almost being lynched? I remember people trying to throw paranoia shade on Minish but I don’t remember votes on her.
    I absolutely agree that meta is important and I use it myself (for example, my EME read is meta from their tone) but I'm just worried that people have been over-relying on it a bit. Meta is extremely useful but if a lot of our arguments are just meta and not much substance then what stops somebody from going "hey, X (townsperson) isn't acting like their last town game" and wolves getting a mislynch with zero accountability? Also the validity of a person's meta reads is really hard to tell so it's often hard to tell if the person making the reads is genuine or not.

    Just to reiterate: my point is never not to use meta, I would just support please making sure you don't forget to add in-game reasonings for reads/pushes if you can find any in addition to meta. I know it would certainly make my life easier.

    Sorry, I did mean Michi and got the two names confused in my head. Super sorry about this.

    This is somewhere along my own reasoning, mind you I'm not familiar with most player's meta which leaves me naturally suspicious of claims dealing with it. But it seems like a player who is aware of their own meta could easily influence the general view of them using well established patterns to deflect suspicion.

    I'm especially not fond of it as a defense. It's probably one of the most obvious things one could say.

    Now I could be wrong but I haven't seen anything from BSR defending his general lurkiness outside of his claim that his wolf meta is far more aggressive. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm still catching up but I wanted to contribute before days end.

    I'm still leery of Vro as well. But his reasoning has been more based in gameplay strategy.
    NyghtOwl
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    Minish
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  • Analysis of Ruguo's posts

    Spoiler
    Starts off with rvs vote on Doc.

    Some fluff posts.

    Says he gets the feeling we need to vote Michi off for meta after what Vro pointed out and votes Michi.

    Questions Ogun's post and says it feels off. Puts some suspicion on Ogun.

    Town reads Mele.

    Says that he can't read people when he hosts games referring to someone questioning his suspicion of Ogun for playing how he always does.

    Questions what info Vro was holding onto regarding BSR.

    Says Red's defense of cozmik is NAI and Red defending himself with his own meta is something he'd do as either alignment.

    Says Wintermoot's post looked like it reeked of ""I have no idea what's going on but really tried to make an informed effort". Soft defends Wintermoot saying he can vouch that he's been busy. Says he does make some good points but does what Silver himself does which is read up and note small odd things then expand on them a lot for no reason.

    Says that "Minish is playing like Minish", discusses how he saw my vote for Michi as coming from a place of one scumspect lynched is better than no scumspects lynched. Thought my switch to Red laid out my reasons well, even if he didn't believe in them.

    Someone mentions Gerrick being quiet and Silver agrees and says Gerrick is quiet as scum and that him and BSR lurking doesn't sit right with him.

    Makes a joke post blaming the Valerians for no one dying.

    Joke post about Doc being scum.

    Says hi to Kane and asks why he doesn't remember a single of his posts from d1. Then says it's because he's inept at remembering who is playing.

    Explains what he meant by the Valerians post and says it houses some of the best scum players. Names BSR, Hapi, and Michi.

    Some fluff.

    Asks TGN not to just randomly vote after he placed a vote for Wintermoot. Tries to prod him a bit about the vote.

    Mentions he can't tell scum Minish from town Minish.

    Doesn't think it odd that Vro tied a wagon, but didn't like his vote jumping.

    Addresses ENE (prods to post more or he'll assume he's lurking scum), Wisch (says they're useful and tells them to keep poking things, and that Sapph could use a good prod), Mele (jokes that he needs more walls from her, but also says she's right about looking into the wagons and smart scum wouldn't all jump on one wagon especially when two were viable), Doc (asks him to state something useful if he's going to drop in), and Nyght (says that watching lurkers is a good play but that there are probably active scum around, then asks for his perspective on anyone who's posted more than Doc/Cozmik or anyone that's posted recently).

    Says if he's hearing things right either Michi or Vro are the best options for the day. Michi as potential info lynch from d1 but that meta reasons shouldn't play as big a part in d2. Vro because of his own risky moves. Says he's not as info rich as Michi but he would prefer to lynch Vro.

    Addresses a post by BSR - says he had his order of events wrong with Silver's joke about the Valerians and that it came after Hapi's lynch. Also that he admits he jumped on the Michi wagon but hardly created it, just agreed with the meta reason and that was the best we had d1 but now we had the flip-flopping of votes. Also questions how town doing nothing is ever good for town (regarding BSR's post). Asks if BSR wants to banter, says that BSR had a bad argument about just sitting back and doing nothing.

    Questions my suspicion about him not scum hunting by saying in his defense when has he ever scum hunted. Talks to TGN trying to prod him some more. Asks his thoughts on the players of interest that day - TGN, BSR, Vro, somewhat Michi, and Silver himself. Says he thinks Red could be considered interesting if he also wanted to talk about him.

    Says he'd like to take a closer look at Sapph. Something feels off, used to more frustrated yet cheerful headvoice from him, getting more blase feeling and not sure if that's good or bad. Guesses he'll ISO to see if something feels off.

    Says he wasn't sussing Moot just trying to connect to his shoes and that Moot has a tendency to pick out stranger things than others.

    Replies to Moot asking what makes the strange things he picks out different than the strange things anyone else picks out and Ruguo jokes that he doesn't know but maybe he just has a guilty looking face. Says would be good to hear from Michi but in his defense he did drag him and Laur into something out of game.

    Votes TGN for pressure. Says he knows he can do better, will remove if he gives any useful posts but if he doesn't he'll be okay lynching him.

    Replies to TGN basically trying to help him out, says he doesn't want to lynch him because he has potential but can't help him if he won't help himself.

    Replies to another TGN post saying he can work with that reply. Says why he thinks his wagon took off. Asks him his thoughts on Vro, BSR, Ruguo, Sapph, Red, and Michi. Encourages TGN some more.

    Disputes Red's post casting suspicion on him and says he's putting words in his mouth and he doesn't like that. Unvotes TGN because he gave him what he wanted. Says he's okay with a Vro lynch but would prefer a BSR lynch even though that's not on the table.

    Liked Mele's observations about me, says there are parallels between my play this game and the previous ZD one we just played together where I was scum.

    Didn't like Michi's post about lurkers, said felt like he was trying to avoid the major wagons.

    Says Sapph is still coming up short and uncomfy to him, but promised an ISO before he moved on with that, and wasn't worth starting a wagon with so little time. Says his options seem like Doc, TGN, Vro, and himself. Votes Vro. Says Vro's lynch will give us information though he's not his first choice but hardly his last.

    Cozmik asks why she shouldn't jump on the Silver wagon and Silver gives his reasoning and defense why. Asks if scum would work so hard to get TGN to prove his innocence.

    Says can't defend against Mele and her voting patterns. But says he gave he gave his reasons for voting Michi and Vro.

    Mele says he could vote someone other than Vro and he says to assure his death, seems like the best idea ever. Doesn't wanna chance a tie and dying from it, and unless someone helps make BSR viable he's staying where he is.

    Last post says for us to do the right thing when he's gone and tells TGN to remember what they talked about, he knows he has it in him and so does everyone else.


    I don't know if Silver distances this hard from BSR. Though he never did once vote him even though he said he preferred his lynch. I feel like his posts about Sapph may be more in line with distancing. It was just light suspicion that he gives himself the option to back out of by claiming he'll do an ISO that he never does. His interactions with TGN do seem a but scum coaching scum. So I guess that option is still on the table. His constant bringing up of Red seems to make Red look even townier now. His random addressing of Wisch pings me a bit, but it's very small.


    Annnnd I just went and look where Sapph's vote fell on the Ruguo wagon and it was actually the cause of the tie. Fuck I was really feeling like a BSR/Sapph contending wagons could be good for the day but that made me less certain. Unless Sapph was going with a distancing plan but he could have voted Vro there. I dunno, this BSR lynch doesn't feel great but I'm at a loss of where to go from here.
    3 people like this post: Vroendal, Gerrick, Red Mones
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    ExLight
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  • Sapph is definitely experienced enough to know what his vote implied and I can really see him doing it as scum.

    I wouldn’t mind TGN/Sapph wagons uwu
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    TGN
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  • why is that?
    I’m probably on NS lol
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  • why is that?
    I don’t buy your LAMIST act specially with people telling us that you’re more than capable of playing seriously, which also makes me question your “derp”.

    I feel like Silver was frustrated at you not pushing people around as his scumbud and saw an opportunity to maybe bus you if people gave up on Vro, but that backfired.
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  • As for Sapph I really don’t like his tone as a whole, and I feel like Silver’s attempt of throwing shade at him feel unnatural in a distancing way. I’m going to reread the interactions now, but it’s mainly that and how I just really despise that post Sapph made that I quoted in a compilation a few pages back.
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    Minish
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  • Anyone know what the vote count is looking like?

    BSR gives a lot of info.

    Sapph similarly I feel would give info because I'm kinda feeling like him and BSR aren't aligned.

    TGN kinda gives some info on Doc. I really wanna feel like Doc is town but his insistance on the TGN/Vro connection after yesterday feels like it could be scum trying to setup a mislynch. Similarly he could just be tunneled.
    1 person likes this post: ExLight
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    Vroendal
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  • I would greatly like to hear ExLight's thoughts on Minish.
    Now that you've had interactions, are you able to analyze Minish more?

    Minish, would you perhaps be willing to make a new reads list? If we proceed in thinking that you're town, I'm curious to see where you would lead us next. I want to believe you, but it would help me if you led a charge against scum today, ya know?
    Friendly reminder that I did ask about this at one point.

    I have much reading to do. I will post later.
    Please do so sooner rather than later, your perspective helps me.

    @BraveSirRobin you are being voted, do you have any contributions you want to make?
    Vroendal
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  • Oh right, sorry Vro I did forget about the reads list thing. Not sure if I can do a very extensive one before eod at this point but I could do a basic one of how I'm feeling at the moment if you'd like.
    1 person likes this post: Vroendal
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    Vroendal
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  • Current D3 Vote Count -
    Ordered chronologically

    Gerrick - (Red Mones)
    BraveSirRobin - (Sapphiron, Gerrick, Vroendal)
    2 people like this post: Minish, ExLight
    Vroendal
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    ExLight
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  • Vote: Sapph

    Why are you townreading Red again, Minish?
    I had a feeling he was townie but I couldn't really explain why so I'm kinda on the fence about him too.
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    Minish
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  • Town
    Nyght
    Red
    HumanDawn
    Legacy
    Cozmikrae

    Town lean
    Anubhav
    Vro
    Michi
    Kane (this one is very very light based on one thing I don't want to mention at the moment)

    Null
    Wintermoot
    Doc (want to lean town)
    Ex (it's unfortunate he replaced in late because I get my best reads of him during d1)
    Gerrick
    BSR (could go either way, depends on other's alignments)
    TGN (really could go either way with him)

    Scum Lean
    Sapphiron
    Wischland (Due to the ease of town reads they're getting when they don't feel similar to last game, as well as Silver's odd post mentioning them.)


    The scum lean section is pretty bare, but at the moment quite a few reads depend on info about others. TGN, BSR, and Doc could end up there.

    (Note that this is all based on just how I'm feeling at the moment when I went down the player list and thought about each player, more in depth reads would rely on me rereading some things.)


    2 people like this post: Vroendal, ExLight
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