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Hey guys,

Over the years, Wintreath has always been the sort of place that people could count on to chill, unwind, and have fun with their friends here in the region no matter what was going in in their lives and in the world...more than anything, that’s what has always made our community so special. We were able to build this special community because of our belief in our regional principles of hospitality, warmth, personability, openness, and civility.

However, over the last few weeks, we’ve had a lot of drama in the community that has caused people to feel like they can no longer give their opinions, open up personally, or be themselves out of fear that they’ll be bashed or made out to be bad people by those who disagree with them. Even more people just can’t stand the drama period. Even worse, they feel unable to even voice their feelings about this in public because they’re afraid that they’ll be thrown into the drama or targetted by others for doing so. Worst of all, some have simply decided that the best thing to do is to quietly leave or reduce their involvement in the region to avoid being drawn into it all. I can’t say I blame them...even I’ve been left feeling the same way, to the point where I seriously considered closing the region, a true first.

So it’s left to me to point out the obvious: that this situation is intolerable, and that we cannot allow a dynamic of drama that is destroying our community to continue.

It’s perfectly alright to disagree with each other, or to not be happy with how this community is being governed and want to propose ideas. Those have been things since the founding of the region. However, I will no longer allow these things to devolve into the sort of drama, personal attacks, snark, and hyperbolic arguments that we’ve seen over the past several weeks. Disagreements will be discussed respectfully and civilly, and the ops team will intervene quickly and decisively when drama raises its head. If someone consistently proves to be unable to disagree with others civilly and respectfully, they will no longer be part of our community.

I understand that this statement in itself will likely stir up disagreement, but I feel it is necessary and required not only to return Wintreath to a place where people feel they can let loose, relax, and be themselves, but to remain a place that I am personally passionate about wanting to continue to build. I hope and believe that this is what is wanted by most people in our community, but if this causes some people to want to leave, then I have accepted that possibility. If we do not change course, we are going to continue to lose good people anyways. It’s ultimately my decision as Founder to determine what needs to be done to uphold our regional values and continue our community as the peaceful, chill, awesome place that we all know and love, and I would rather people leave over a decision I made than to continue to see people leaving because they can neither be themselves or avoid drama otherwise.

Best Regards,

-Wintermoot
-Monarch and Founder of Wintreath

The following is my individual opinion.

For two weeks now a select few pushed the ops team around. For two weeks now they've chased people out of the server and out of the region with no remorse. They have pursued their agendas and Wintreath has paid the price for it. But no more. One way or another THIS ENDS NOW. They have refused to be reasonable and so I draw the line here. Their destructive and toxic methods END NOW. Others who were driven away by them and their destructive and toxic behavior unfortunately can't be here for this. So this ends now. However there are those among them that do not approve their methods. So this paragraph is not directed at those individuals. To those among them that approve of their methods so far; I will not allow you to tear this community apart any longer. We are the ops team. We are tasked with protecting this community and enforcing the rules. So we will do just that. You are not above the rules.

Now that I've went cold, logical mod on this it's time I get a little personal. A little down-to-earth about it all. This select few has spent its time turning friends against friends. They've handed out pitchforks and torches to you and told you that you are in danger. That you face an enemy. And that that enemy is the very people you've gotten to know for so long and become very close with. That among others that enemy is me. I sat back while they (and you) said what I meant. That I meant one thing as opposed to another. That they know my mind better than myself. That in some way I had acted as a bad person. And some of you believed them. I can't begin to express how hurt I was to see my friends turn on me so quickly. So viciously.

I was even more hurt to see that select few attack me even more viciously. I've known them for so long. I've helped them with so much and they in turn helped me. Admittedly I've lost all respect for one of them. How could I not? It may be a long time before I can respect them again. If not ever again. I'm not sure if or when I can consider that select group of friends my friends ever again. They'll have to earn that back. But that's not on the rest of you. Their actions have consequences and those consequences are on them. Not you.

This is probably less heated than CoS' response, but I agree this needs to end.

I understand and appreciate the other side on this matter.  Pronouns were removed which upset people, the beginning response wasn't that great as a followup.  But not only has this been discussed in depth by those involved, it's been apologized for both as a whole by the current ops team at the time as well as individually by people who made the remarks that led to the whole fight in the first place.

At this point, what is it even anymore?  It's bickering, plain and simple.  It's not even about the topic at hand anymore outside of a select few people that have remained level headed and calm about their disagreements, and more about the most vocal members speaking for them and turning it into constant toxic grudge matches at every opportunity.

The ops are receptive to listening in a civil, friendlier setting away from the chat.   The only reason for the dismissals is because it's happening in public chat, where members have left because they came here for fun, not for drama.  We literally just had another member leave today because she didn't want to deal with the drama that was happening yet again.  How many more have to leave before people realize that this isn't the right way?  How many people have to leave before those vocal few realize that their voices are not helping anyone and in fact are hurting everyone?

Wintreath should be a place for people to get away from the drama and unwind, not bring it to the forefront.

That being said, I fully support Wintermoot's statement that things need to change, because it's obvious what we're trying to work with isn't working, and it's threatening the core of the region and tearing people away from it.

now, this is a bit less heated then what they are saying but..... I miss the great debates in our discord and honestly why don't we just kick the guys causing all the problems right now?

Because Wintreath is an inclusive region, a safe refuge for all. Tolerance is at the very core of the regional identity. It’s supposed to be as free from drama, toxicity and politicisation that a community sprouted from a Nationstates region can be. It’s unfortunate that as a result of tragic events occurring in real life, anger has flowed into this virtual safe haven, creating a tense environment ripe for argumentation and antagonism. Any issue, minor or major, immediately becomes a highly contentious fight. This region has always been a place where I can share my joys and sorrows with friends, to celebrate and commiserate, and it’s saddening to see the region devolve into this state within 2 weeks. Call me selfish, but I actually agree with the removal of the politics / great debates channel. The immediate to-and-fro just creates an unhealthy environment where people just getting personally attacked and return them with the same fervent reciprocity. I don’t see why a private channel can’t be created to resolve major interpersonal conflicts that involve a substantial number of members, instead of flaring everything in the public areas and making those who don’t want to be involved comfortable.   I hope this confrontational approach that has become the preferred option in the past 2 weeks will dissipate and the region will recover.

I would just like to point out that things only escalated to public confrontation after the other less public avenues were shut down. As a third party who happened to observe some of the more explosive events, the timeline I've pieced together goes something like this:

1) A bunch of members' names were all changed to bob, which affected a trans woman who had her pronouns in her username. She was understandably upset at being misgendered, but when this concern was brought up in the chat, her feelings were dismissed. Logs under spoiler with emphasis mine.

Spoiler

[5:02 PM] April🌈:
also who changed my nickname?
[5:02 PM] April🌈:
i had my pronouns there for a reason
[5:02 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
The malware in this case disables 2fa.
[5:02 PM] April🌈:
oof
[5:09 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
Heck this watch
[5:09 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
Somehow it extended 20 mins on rotations
[5:11 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
I’m astonished how many bobs are left
[5:11 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
Why by the way are there so many bobs?
[5:12 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
Silv said yesterday everyone is bob, so I changed everyone I could (basically cabinet and citizens since I couldn’t change ops or moot, and didn’t bother with the un-roled folks) to bob
[5:13 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
>_>
5:16 PM] Katie:
@AntiBreadMoot that may not have been the best choice
[5:17 PM] Katie:
I don't think some of the folks here wanted their nicks changed
[5:17 PM] Dawcreek, The Ghost of Karma:
Exactly.
[5:17 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
It’s simple to change it back
[5:17 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
I see no problem
[5:17 PM] Katie:
I've already received a complaint
[5:17 PM] Katie:
and I can't even do anything
[5:18 PM] Dawcreek, The Ghost of Karma:
This is why I said last night that consent should be asked for before doing something like that.
[5:18 PM] 🐟Wolf Noxy🐟:
ring ring ring ring ring ring ring ring, Banana Phone!
[5:19 PM] Katie:
I personally wouldn't have appreciated it because bob is a masculine name
[5:19 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
The reason it was bob was because of Silv’s comment ‘we are all bob.’
[5:19 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
Hence changing people’s nicks that were online to ‘bob’
[5:19 PM] Katie:
I don't think the joke landed
[5:19 PM] Katie:
not everyone here saw that comment
[5:20 PM] Katie:
and even then, using admin powers to change the nicknames of people on the server without their consent?
[5:20 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
Please don't take the change as some sort of malicious misgendering thing. Not everything is about gender identity politics. >_>
[5:20 PM] Katie:
Some people took it that way
[5:21 PM] Katie:
but I don't think anyone thought it was malicious
[5:21 PM] Katie:
just irresponsible and insensitive
[5:21 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
Attention all bobs, past and present, not all bobing is about gender identity politics. Sometimes a joke is just a joke. >_<
[5:21 PM] Sir Bagel of Stirlingshire:
I found it funny
[5:21 PM] Katie:
why don't you get the point?
[5:21 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
I get the point.
[5:21 PM] Katie:
nobody asked us if we wanted that
[5:21 PM] Katie:
someone made that decision on their own
[5:22 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
It
[5:22 PM] Katie:
and they had the power to do so
[5:22 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
Was
[5:22 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
It's just that it's am isunderstanding. Nothing more.
[5:22 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
A
[5:22 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
Joke
[5:22 PM] Katie:
No
[5:22 PM] Katie:
I don't care if it was a joke
[5:22 PM] Katie:
that's not an excuse
[5:22 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
It wasn’t an attack on anyone
[5:22 PM] Katie:
I don't care
[5:22 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
It wasn’t meant to be insensitive.
[5:22 PM] Katie:
It doesn't matter
[5:22 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
It. Was. A. Joke.
[5:22 PM] Wintermoot 👑 [I voted]:
Nobody got hurt, at most some people were mildly inconvenienced.
[5:22 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
It’s changing your nickname.
[5:22 PM] AntiBreadMoot:
That’s it.
[5:22 PM] Katie:
someone was legitimately annoyed because their pronouns were removed from their name and replaced with a masculine name
[5:23 PM] Katie:
and that bothers me immensely
[5:23 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
Exactly. Would you have AJ beg each bob for their forgiveness because they missed the joke? It's an irrational expectation.
5:23 PM] Katie:
no, I would have him admit that it was an impulse decision that may not have been well-thought-out
[5:24 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
What if each person's name were changed to Reptar? Would you take it as a malicious mis-identification of their species to that of a dinosaur?
[5:25 PM] Katie:
Oooof that is not a good comparison and I've seen that sort of sentiment way too often
[5:25 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
It's more applicable than you think. There are many people who "identify" as animals.
[5:25 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
And for whatever reason they expect people to respect that.
[5:26 PM] Katie:
No, don't try to disguise that sort of trans erasure as social liberalism
[5:26 PM] Wintermoot 👑 [I voted]:
I knew people once who identified as vampires...otherkin, I think they called it technically.
[5:26 PM] Sir Bagel of Stirlingshire:
Let's all just chill?
[5:26 PM] Katie:
that's very offensive to me
[5:26 PM] Katie:
"I identify as an apache attack helicopter"
[5:26 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
-sigh- I will just shut up then. There's no reasoning with this.
[5:27 PM] Katie:
You couldn't ever understand how personal this is to me
[5:27 PM] Satania Grá Emoticonius:
I'll be back in a few hours when things have calmed down.
[5:27 PM] Wintermoot 👑 [I voted]:
In any case, I highly, highly, highly doubt that AJ meant to 'trans erase' anybody.
[5:27 PM] Katie:
someone was upset by this decision and the person who did it is acting so nonchalant and everyone is defending them
[5:27 PM] Katie:
it's INFURIATING
[5:27 PM] Katie:
I don't think he did
[5:27 PM] Katie:
but the fact that y'all can't see why someone would feel that way
[5:28 PM] Katie:
and instead of admitting you could have thought it through, you act like they're the crazy one
[5:28 PM] Katie:
I'm not even the one that was affected by this
[5:28 PM] Katie:
I'm arguing on behalf of another citizen
[5:28 PM] Katie:
but it matters to me
[5:28 PM] Katie:
Maybe I'm being an SJW about this
[5:29 PM] Sir Bagel of Stirlingshire:
:(
[5:29 PM] Katie:
but that doesn't matter
[5:29 PM] Katie:
It wasn't that big of a deal, and I've had to make it a big deal because instead of saying "oh my bad, I'll be sure to keep that in mind next time" I hear "it's a joke, chill out"
[5:29 PM] Katie:
the most gaslight-y thing I've ever heard
[5:30 PM] Katie:
and that bothers me, that that kind of sentiment would exist here
[5:30 PM] Katie:
so yeah, I made a big deal out of it because of that
[5:31 PM] Wintermoot 👑 [I voted]:
I can understand how people would be annoyed at having their name changed and having to change it back...not to mention trying to figure out who is who in a sea of bobs on the online list. But I think in this case people are reading a little too much into it...had he only changed the names of people with a gender listed I could see that argument, but he didn't mean anything by it. It's not like he was motivated by some kind of transphobia or something. He was just funning around.
[5:32 PM] Katie:
But that's not the point. The point is that someone was annoyed by this, and I said "that may not have been the best choice, I don't think some of the folks here wanted their nicks changed"
[5:32 PM] Katie:
but apparently that's reading too much into it
[5:33 PM] Sir Bagel of Stirlingshire:
Points snowball into arguements
[5:33 PM] Vroendal:
Imo it's just a matter of perspective. Some need to just see the perspective of the joke. People who didn't see Silv's comment don't get it, and may be angry. But the name change wasn't malicious, even if it was unecessary.
[5:34 PM] Vroendal:
I get called Vroe by other people, which sounds more feminine to me. But I can take it. People are overreacting a bit.
[5:39 PM] Wintermoot 👑 [I voted]:
I apologize that anyone was annoyed by this antic...like I said, I can see how people could be annoyed by it.
[5:40 PM] Katie:
Okay
[5:40 PM] Katie:
that's all I wanted to see
[5:40 PM] Katie:
I wasn't even annoyed by it until someone told me they were
[5:40 PM] (っ◔◡◔)っHapi:
...
[5:40 PM] Sir Bagel of Stirlingshire:
:)
[5:40 PM] Katie:
and if it's for like, pronoun or misgendering reasons, whether intentional or not, I get a bit upset
[5:41 PM] Katie:
I apologize for making a big ruckus about it but I just wanted to hear something other than "it's a joke" or "you're taking it too seriously"
[5:42 PM] (っ◔◡◔)っHapi:
I honestly think everyone is being ridiculous
[5:44 PM] Katie:
and to think just a few days ago I was praising Ricky Gervais internally for how little he cares about people getting offended
[5:44 PM] Katie:
I feel a little ashamed now
[5:44 PM] Sir Bagel of Stirlingshire:
Don't
[5:45 PM] Sir Bagel of Stirlingshire:
If someone got offended it's important to defend them and I think your point kind of just ended up snowballing into a full blown arguement.
[5:45 PM] Katie:
I guess when it comes to transgender issues I get a bit heated
5:45 PM] Katie:
it gets personal
[5:47 PM] Sir Bagel of Stirlingshire:
Of course no one here is trans-phobic and you should defend things you care about but I'm sure no one intended for this to turn into a full blown arguement
[5:47 PM] Katie:
I'm sorry
[5:50 PM] Vroendal:
I think, though I haven't experienced it myself, I understand why you felt that way. I for one wasn't offended by your standing up for someone. I think it was admirable to do. The situation just devolved too much.

2) After the initial mishandling of what is now referred to as the "bob incident", other trans members were upset and left the Wintreath server, among them April and Chanku. Katie noted that a lot more people than she initially realized were upset by the name change, and brought it up as a concern in #tavern. Logs begin here, with some pertinent messages featured beneath the spoiler.

Spoiler

[1:31 PM] Wintermoot 👑 [I voted]:
In any case, was there something new about those recent events that was brought up?
[1:32 PM] Katie:
wdym
[1:33 PM] Wintermoot 👑 [I voted]:
I mean, something that wasn't brought up when it happened
[1:38 PM] Conflagration Individual:
Sometimes, whats needed for something to become worth addressing isn't 'new evidence' but just 'more people finding it concerning'
[1:40 PM] Katie:
Yeah it's nothing new that came up
[1:40 PM] Katie:
just more people are upset about it than I initially thought
[1:41 PM] Katie:
and it seems that it's become a problem
[1:41 PM] Katie:
(even though it already was one imo)
[1:42 PM] Wintermoot 👑 [I voted]:
Well, I guess I'll repeat myself then. I can see how it's annoying to have your name changed, especially as part of a joke that people weren't in on, but I think beyond that people are reading more into it than what is really there.
[1:42 PM] Wintermoot 👑 [I voted]:
Had it not been for one person with pronouns in their name out of a dozen or so people changed, we would not be having this discussion.
[1:44 PM] Katie:
It doesn't really matter if it was just one person, and at this point it isn't the initial event that's even upsetting people
[1:44 PM] Katie:
it was everyone's response to it
[1:45 PM] Katie:
"it was just a joke", "you're looking too far into it"
[1:45 PM] Katie:
Someone was legitimately upset about the initial event and yet their opinion was almost completely invalidated by the whole community
[1:46 PM] Katie:
and it continues to be as well

---

[2:04 PM] Katie:
I only wanted to hear from AJ "I apologize that my actions offended some. This was not my intention and in the future I will ask for permission of those I am changing the names of"
[2:04 PM] Katie:
but then people got so defensive about it
[2:04 PM] Katie:
"it's just a joke, you're taking this too seriously" or whatever
[2:05 PM] Katie:
and now it's kind of too late because it's going to take alot of effort to convince me that any apology at this point is borne of anything aside from appeasement

---

[2:43 PM] Laurentus:
And for crying out loud, if you were in any way online at the time, your name was changed. It's a shitty joke, but it was not motivated by taking your gender identity away. No one was barred from changing it back. The real argument to be had here is that people's names probably shouldn't be changed for any reason, because it's rather annoying, but there was nothing more to it.
[2:43 PM] Vroendal:
I agree with Lau's position.
[2:51 PM] Tau Valeria:
The intent of the name change doesn't matter if the effect was dysphoric or otherwise negatively invalidating. Actions, including jokes, often have unintended consequences, and we should be able to recognize those and own up to those errors.
[2:53 PM] Laurentus:
Are you familiar with the term mens rea?
[2:55 PM] Tau Valeria:
(To clarify, by "doesn't matter" I don't mean there isn't a distinction, just that it is still an issue even if the intent was good-hearted)
[2:55 PM] Laurentus:
He's apologised as far as I understand. I don't see what the problem is.
[2:55 PM] Katie:
People continue to miss the point by saying that "it was not motivated by transphobic sentiment"
[2:55 PM] Katie:
also I don't remember seeing him do so
[2:57 PM] Laurentus:
Then what is the point?
[2:57 PM] Katie:
The point is not that it was motivated by transphobic sentiment, but that it made people upset nonetheless and then those who spoke up about it were shoved aside by members of this community
[3:00 PM] Laurentus:
So are you protesting the fact that it happened, or the insensitivity in the response?
[3:01 PM] Katie:
the insensitivity in the response
[3:02 PM] Katie:
The people who are upset that it happened: I guess I can see where they're coming from (?) but it's the response that infuriated me

---

[3:09 PM] Laurentus:
So what's this about then?
[3:10 PM] Tau Valeria:
Rather, my understanding of the issue is that people's concerns seemingly don't matter to other members of the community, including Ops, simply because the instigating incident was intended as a joke
[3:12 PM] Laurentus:
I think there's something being left unspoken here, so I'm just gonna say it. I think some of the people complaining knew it was just a joke, but chose to read more into it.
[3:12 PM] Tau Valeria:
Basically, "it was just a shitty joke", even if true, isn't a reason to dismiss people out of hand
[3:13 PM] Laurentus:
When people are making much more of it than is there, I would say it is.
[3:13 PM] Tau Valeria:
Something being intended as a joke doesn't change the real impact it may have, and therefore using that as justification for saying that there is no issue is an issue
[3:13 PM] Tau Valeria:
Something being intended as a joke doesn't change the real impact it may have, and therefore using that as justification for saying that there is no issue is an issue
[3:15 PM] Laurentus:
An issue that no one seems to have a remedy for, since apologies apparently aren't good enough.
[3:17 PM] Tau Valeria:
I think all people are wanting (or at least me) is for us, especially those who dismissed the concerns, to collectively recognize the issue and move on
[3:17 PM] Katie:
So now you're accusing people of purposefully making more of this? That's uh...
[3:17 PM] Laurentus:
If one of those people is Chanku? You betcha.
[3:17 PM] Katie:
You're not really one to judge what "is there" for people to be going beyond
[3:17 PM] Katie:
because it's subjective
[3:18 PM] Katie:
Apologies, good sincere apologies, would be satisfactory to me
[3:18 PM] Laurentus:
Except you won't even believe it.
[3:19 PM] Laurentus:
So what's the point?
[3:19 PM] Tau Valeria:
I think all people are wanting (or at least me) is for us, especially those who dismissed the concerns, to collectively recognize the issue and move on
Especially since just above in this chat we have many people, including Moot, just saying "it was a shitty joke there was no problem"
[3:19 PM] Katie:
I mean at this point can you see why it'd be hard to?
[3:19 PM] Katie:
Considering how annoyed y'all seem to be at the situation?
[3:19 PM] Laurentus:
So then again, what is it that you actually want?
[3:19 PM] Katie:
I literally just said it
[3:20 PM] Laurentus:
And then I literally just pointed out that you said you likely wouldn't see it as genuine.
[3:20 PM] Laurentus:
That's like the Definition of a catch 22.
[3:20 PM] Katie:
No it isn't
[3:20 PM] Katie:
it just has to be truly genuine
[3:20 PM] Katie:
I want to see that an understanding has been reached
[3:21 PM] Katie:
that even though intentions were good, this bothered people and instead of reacting to it maturely first, they brushed it aside
[3:21 PM] Katie:
that's what I want them to realize
[3:21 PM] Laurentus:
And if the person who made the joke doesn't see it as a problem, by virtue of it being a joke, what then?
[3:21 PM] Katie:
Then that's honestly a big problem
[3:21 PM] Laurentus:
Why?
[3:22 PM] Katie:
because it means they don't care
[3:22 PM] Laurentus:
Why should someone care if they never intended offense?
[3:22 PM] Katie:
Because they caused it anyways
[3:22 PM] Tau Valeria:
Why shouldn't people care about unintended consequences of their actions?
[3:22 PM] Katie:
If I accidentally offended someone, the first thing I would say is "I'm sorry"
[3:23 PM] Katie:
and I wouldn't qualify it with "but it was just a joke"

---

[3:25 PM] Katie:
when you say "it was just a joke" it implies that their reaction was incorrect
[3:26 PM] Laurentus:
Whatever. You know as well as I do that Chanku doesn't like AJ, and that probably has a lot more to do with the complaint than anything else.
[3:26 PM] Katie:
That's a very bad take
[3:26 PM] Katie:
I don't think this is about rivalries
[3:26 PM] Katie:
in fact I know it isn't
[3:27 PM] Katie:
and I think the fact that you would deflect and say "oh it's because of personal vendettas"
[3:27 PM] Katie:
is honestly a bit disgusting
[3:27 PM] Katie:
because you remember who said that?
[3:27 PM] Katie:
in November?
[3:27 PM] Katie:
about AJ and Marz and the lot?
[3:27 PM] Mathyland:
in fact I know it isn't
@Katie How do you know that?
[3:27 PM] Mathyland:
(Just an honest question)
[3:27 PM] Sir Bagel of Stirlingshire:
Why is everyone fighting?
[3:28 PM] Katie:
Because Chanku wasn't the first person to tell me they were bothered by this

---

[3:43 PM] Wintermoot 👑 [I voted]:
I don't think it's productive to continue the conversation at this point with everyone up in arms. That's all I meant.
[3:43 PM] Katie:
Okay I agree with that

3) The first discussion, in #tavern.
4) The moratorium was issued.
5) Hapi leaves. Logs in spoiler.

Spoiler

[5:12 AM] (っ◔◡◔)っHapi:
chugs drink I don't think this violates moratorium. I want this to be known but not blasted you everyone which is why its here. I love you all. I really do. You mean a lot to me all of you. This place became my home. My sanctuary my safe place in a crazy world. My family. But for my own health and safety I cannot stay in this region anymore. I shouldn't have to feel unsafe in my own home and I realized today that its exactly how I feel. I had to beg to leave tavern because I felt unsafe in my home. Its nobodies fault but I don't feel that remaining here is in my best interest. I hope those of you who see me as a friend will remain in contact because you all do mean a lot to me. This is the first discord where I've felt accepted and able to be myself and you all helped me realize that I'm probably a girl and explore that. So thanks forever thanks I love you all forever and always Love ya <3 ~ Hapi
[5:14 AM] (っ◔◡◔)っHapi:
PS make sure Monkey implements my integration ideas
[5:16 AM] The Aquamatic Pengu:
Hapi, I'm sorry that you feel like you have to leave since this region has always tried to make an impression on feeling like a safe haven for people to get away from the ugliness of the world outside. The fact that you don't feel like you can feel safe in this region is an absolute failure on the whole of the region, and I really do hope this can be remedied some day to where you feel like you can come back to the bubbly region that you once joined.
[5:30 AM] Dawcreek, The Ghost of Karma:
Farewell, Hapi. I’m kind of sad now.
[5:34 AM] Dawcreek, The Ghost of Karma:
I had a bit of an urge myself to leave, but it’s not worth mentioning since I’d be abandoning the very place that’s been helping me to improve, so I decided to stay.
[11:11 AM] Mercury 'trader' Kestar:
Hapi, I'm sorry that you feel like you have to leave since this region has always tried to make an impression on feeling like a safe haven for people to get away from the ugliness of the world outside. The fact that you don't feel like you can feel safe in this region is an absolute failure on the whole of the region, and I really do hope this can be remedied some day to where you feel like you can come back to the bubbly region that you once joined.
I'm sorry to see you go. you were a good presence and I hope you consider coming back one day! The ops are seeing how the culture of wintreath has changed in the last while, and we've had some discussions about how to improve. I quote pengu cause he's put it rather well. We'll work to improve this.
[11:17 AM] Crushita Telcontar:
I look forward to seeing what the OP team has to tell us.
[11:18 AM] Chanku:
And I look forward to continued discussion hopefully after I get off work
[11:19 AM] Arenado:
I was going to share my thoughts and my opinion but, frankly, it hardly matters at this point
[11:25 AM] Chanku:
I disagree. I firmly believe this discussion is important and everyone should voice their thoughts and position.
[11:35 AM] Arenado:
You misunderstand me, my opinion is not really going to do much because saying "I am profoundly disappointed in several people and here is why" is pointless, especially since I doubt any of you want to listen to me at this point
[11:37 AM] Chanku:
It is still important in my opinion. Regardless I can not force you to speak or share that which you do not want to.
[11:45 AM] Mercury 'trader' Kestar:
Hello everyone.
[11:46 AM] Katie:
heyo
[11:46 AM] Mercury 'trader' Kestar:
How about we leave discussion about the discussion for closer to the lifting of the moratorium

5) Discussion in #tavern about hosting the second discussion in #great-debates.
6) The second discussion, in #great-debates.
7) #great-debates is archived.
8) Chanku inquires about when the third discussion will be held.

At this point, I wasn't around (because real life has zero chill atm), but I was given the impression that 1) official discussions had been moved to private channels and 2) Chanku was removed from those discussions. The latter point concerns me immensely because Chanku was one of the people directly and negatively affected by the initial incident, and to my knowledge is the only one such person still present on the server (as the others have left because their concerns had been dismissed).

Coupled with the antagonistic responses above, particularly that of @Emoticonius, I am very concerned as a citizen that members of the ops team are not acting in good faith and are instead fostering personal dislike and mistrust of select members in order to discredit said members.

That is unacceptable.

At the very least, there is a severe breakdown of communications between members of the ops team and members of the community which must be addressed, and as private channels have only appeared to exacerbate the communications issues, I feel it's necessary to have those discussions in a more public arena. I propose that a forum topic be opened for that purpose so that all parties can take the necessary time to 1) cool down before responding and 2) clarify their phrasing to avoid misunderstandings before they can occur.

Moreover, I think the community as a whole needs to come together to have some honest discussions about what behaviors and topics are and are NOT acceptable.

Before I post a few thoughts, something needs to be cleared up for me. Did AJ ever apologize? Whether it was a simple "sorry" or a lengthy apology letter, it doesn't matter to me right now. I don't see it in the logs (except for a mention of it in a quick back and forth between Katie and Laurentus).

Some announcements and comments:

I removed CoS/Emoticonius from the ops team last night. His post in this topic and his defense of it in the ops channel showed me that he’s let his anger over recent events control his public judgement and actions. It’s not that I don’t sympathize with his feelings...in the span of two weeks, he’s had his character attacked, been made out to be a bigot, lost friendships, and been the target of an angry mob, but as an op he had to rise above those things. His response wasn’t appropriate for anybody, much less an op whose duty is to counter such behaviour from others. In my own statement which he replied to, I called for disagreements to be discussed respectfully and civilly, and it’s safe to say his post is the polar opposite of that.

He let his anger control his actions, he lost perspective of this situation, and he behaved in a manner that I had just tasked the ops team with preventing...in a reply to my own post doing so, no less. For those reasons, I do not believe he can effectively carry out the duties of an op, and I have accordingly removed him from the team.

@Butter: Because this is a community of friends, even though I admit it hasn’t seemed that way of late...we don’t just throw members of our community out like that. I hope that it doesn’t come to that at all...I hope it will be a matter of people taking a step back and realizing that the manner in which things are being said is hurting each other and hurting our community. I don’t think anyone has intended to be hurtful to either, I think it’s a matter of a lot of people getting carried away, and the ops team failing to point out when it has gone too far (both externally and internally).

@Sapphiron: As we discussed over DM, trader has been leading discussions with many of the people that are involved, and at least from what I’ve been told from people on all sides it’s been very helpful and productive.

@Melehan: I will reply back to you when I have a bit more time to dedicate to a comprehensive response, due to the grave nature of your accusation against the ops team (“members of the ops team are not acting in good faith and are instead fostering personal dislike and mistrust of select members in order to discredit said members”), but needless to say it’s an accusation that I don’t agree with and feel is unfair.

Chanku was excluded from such talks because she has been radical and entirely unopen to compromise to the point of zealotry. Others that share her concerns have proven themselves to be more open to discussion rather than total surrender. She approaches it as a hostage situation and uses the community as a bargaining chip while others have been willing to negotiate.

For the record I don't regret a single word in my statement. I said what the ops team isn't allowed to say. They haven't been allowed to express their anger while the group driving people out of our community have acted like children and rabid dogs. Someone had to say it and I am happy to have expressed that anger which the ops team has had to bury.

"Even worse, they feel unable to even voice their feelings about this in public because they’re afraid that they’ll be thrown into the drama or targetted by others for doing so. Worst of all, some have simply decided that the best thing to do is to quietly leave or reduce their involvement in the region to avoid being drawn into it all. I can’t say I blame them...even I’ve been left feeling the same way, to the point where I seriously considered closing the region, a true first."

If i did show my opinion publicly i would be muted or kicked so i left. Then came back then left again. I wont come back till its fixed. But i doubt it will be.
Im keeping my involvement to a minimum and dont want anything to do with this place unless i can or someone else does something about it.
    At this point, wintreath is becoming the opposite of what it wa meant to be and what it was just a few months ago. Its tearing itself apart.

Chanku was excluded from such talks because she has been radical and entirely unopen to compromise to the point of zealotry. Others that share her concerns have proven themselves to be more open to discussion rather than total surrender. She approaches it as a hostage situation and uses the community as a bargaining chip while others have been willing to negotiate.

For the record I don't regret a single word in my statement. I said what the ops team isn't allowed to say. They haven't been allowed to express their anger while the group driving people out of our community have acted children and rabid dogs. Someone had to say it and I am happy to have expressed that anger which the ops team has had to bury.

as a citizen, i agree entirely, and its like the operators have more control than you do, moot. Please do something.

Before I post a few thoughts, something needs to be cleared up for me. Did AJ ever apologize? Whether it was a simple "sorry" or a lengthy apology letter, it doesn't matter to me right now. I don't see it in the logs (except for a mention of it in a quick back and forth between Katie and Laurentus).

if it were my choice, i'd remove him from the operators entirely.

Chanku was excluded from such talks because she has been radical and entirely unopen to compromise to the point of zealotry. Others that share her concerns have proven themselves to be more open to discussion rather than total surrender. She approaches it as a hostage situation and uses the community as a bargaining chip while others have been willing to negotiate.

For the record I don't regret a single word in my statement. I said what the ops team isn't allowed to say. They haven't been allowed to express their anger while the group driving people out of our community have acted like children and rabid dogs. Someone had to say it and I am happy to have expressed that anger which the ops team has had to bury.

Please stop. With all due respect, you don't speak for me or any other member of the ops team.

Edit: Actually, on reading it again I'm giving you an unofficial warning for flaming ("rabid dogs"). Again, please stop...you're better than this.

If i did show my opinion publicly i would be muted or kicked so i left. Then came back then left again. I wont come back till its fixed. But i doubt it will be.

Exactly what is it that you think you would be muted or kicked for?

Chanku was excluded from such talks because she has been radical and entirely unopen to compromise to the point of zealotry. Others that share her concerns have proven themselves to be more open to discussion rather than total surrender. She approaches it as a hostage situation and uses the community as a bargaining chip while others have been willing to negotiate.

For the record I don't regret a single word in my statement. I said what the ops team isn't allowed to say. They haven't been allowed to express their anger while the group driving people out of our community have acted like children and rabid dogs. Someone had to say it and I am happy to have expressed that anger which the ops team has had to bury.

Please stop. With all due respect, you don't speak for me or any other member of the ops team.

Edit: Actually, on reading it again I'm giving you an unofficial warning for flaming ("rabid dogs"). Again, please stop...you're better than this.

If i did show my opinion publicly i would be muted or kicked so i left. Then came back then left again. I wont come back till its fixed. But i doubt it will be.

Exactly what is it that you think you would be muted or kicked for?

as cos said, their not allowed to express their emotions like some sort of cia agent. They'e been using us. Even people like chanku for example refuse to open up about the whole thing.

As I have previously mentioned, I am not getting involved with this drama. However, I would like to openly state that my expectations for this community have plummeted to the point of disappointment. I joined this region not only to seek improvement, but to seek a kind and compassionate community that I felt safe around. Did this region live up to that? Yes it did. But to witness a once proud community slowly begin to fall apart is unacceptable and I will not tolerate that. Once this drama began, I’ve started to not only have second thoughts, but gloss over the very flaws in this community. However, I know Wintreath is more civil than this, and I do believe we can resolve, learn from our mistakes, and move on.