[4:53 AM] Elbbsas 🥝: I question why there's a part about the Monarch picking the Speaker for a solo election and the floor being opened only iff* that initial nomination doesnt get the majority vote in 24 hours. The fact that the cliff notes version only labels it as "Changes the way the Speaker is selected" and is at the end of the cliff notes and you can only find out what the changes are iff you open the spoiler is also bugging me. Sounds like the most important part, is all.
(*if and only if)
The way I see it, having our Monarch pick the Speaker for a solo election won't ever have the Underhusen not give them a majority vote in, unless someone has royally screwed up in the past. That would be impolite. Plus, it doesn't seem like a fun idea. What if, say, our Monarch picks someone who really doesn't want to be the Speaker? What if someone new wants to try it out, but doesn't want to "speak" up? I dunno, it just sounds like a bad idea all around.
(Love you, Mootles, but this seems really counterproductive).
[5:02 AM] Elbbsas 🥝: Or it might be insomnia getting to me and I'm misreading things, I don't know.
[11:23 AM] taulover: Yeah, I made similar comments to Chanku when he showed me his draft
[11:23 AM] taulover: If I'm not mistaken, Wintermoot wasn't that keen on the idea either
[12:27 PM] Chanku: @ Elbbsas 🥝 first off it is closer to a return of the original way the Speaker was selected, which was just being appointed by the monarch
[12:30 PM] Chanku: Further, with the new authorities and powers of the Underhusen the Speaker should be able to also lead the Underhusen. I have trust that the Monarch would have decent judgement in picking a Speaker. The purpose of the vote is to give the Underhusen a chance to review the candidate. If they disagree, or think a different person would be better they are free to vote against.
[12:30 PM] Chanku: Further, it makes it harder for a situation to occur like just happened
[12:31 PM] Chanku: Where the Speaker election ended up tied until I talked to Taulover and we arranged a deal so a Speaker could be selected.
[12:33 PM] Chanku: Also the bar is higher regardless, which is because the Monarch is expected to have greater discretion wrt this. If the Monarch chooses badly then the Underhusen can signal to the Monarch.
[12:34 PM] Chanku: Further, if the person doesn't want to be Speaker they can always resign or say to vote against them.
[12:34 PM] Chanku: And while it does make it harder for a new person to be Speaker, I would argue the Speaker position does require someone to be a bit more familiar with our laws.
[12:35 PM] Chanku: Especially with the authority the Speaker is gaining.
[12:36 PM] Chanku: Further the bar is different for the Monarch speaker anyway
[12:36 PM] Chanku: They don't need a simple majority
[12:36 PM] Chanku: They need an absolute majority of the Underhusen.
[12:37 PM] Chanku: So voting abstain or not voting is voting against a candidate
[1:41 PM] Crushita: @ Chanku What is the point of this entire bill? Is there an attempt to create a more Prime Minister-like position in the form of the speaker? Also I must reiterate the previous concerns about the selection of the Speaker. While I'm sure we all trust Wintermoot to make the right choice, it seems rather odd to have the Monarch make the choice first. The only cases we need to worry about ties is if the Underhusen is of an even number of seats, and this session is the exception rather then the rule in this case.
[1:42 PM] Chanku: If there are more low-seat sessions, which I do think will occur more often now-a-days
[1:42 PM] Chanku: at the very least we need to be cognizant of that possibility, as generally election participation is on the downswing (especially for UH elections)
[1:43 PM] Chanku: Also the allowing the Monarch to make the first choice generally seemed like the best option. It's not that far-fetched for the Underhusen (the Speaker was initially appointed by the Monarch), and also I do somewhat trust the Monarch for choosing the Speaker properly, and if Wintermoot does screw up it goes to an open nomination
[1:44 PM] Chanku: Further it allows the UH to get to work quicker, if the Monarch chooses someone that is agreeable, it should lead to the UH getting to work in 24 hours, or less.
[1:44 PM] Chanku: If the person is not agreeable then it will take up 48 hours or less.
[1:45 PM] Chanku: Further the point of the bill is to allow the Speaker some more leeway in the running of the Underhusen.(edited)
[1:46 PM] Chanku: It acts as a way to attract people to the Underhusen, in addition to allowing the Underhusen to show it can handle work and responsbility.
[1:46 PM] Chanku: Also the Monarch is the only real permanent position that will always exist (unless something changes, somehow)
[1:47 PM] Chanku: Also it allows for the Speaker/Speaker PT to be recalled.
[1:47 PM] Chanku: and allows the Underhusen to have people dedicated to doing a specific task
[1:48 PM] Chanku: IE: Grammar Checking, Record Keeping, ect.
[1:48 PM] taulover: The Speaker is mandated by the Fundamental Laws actually, though the name/duties/etc of the position can change
[1:48 PM] Chanku: The Speaker position is vacated at the start of each session
[1:49 PM] Chanku: As such after the election of the next UH the Speaker Position is automatically vacant
[1:49 PM] Crushita: I mean in terms of time, if not having three extra days in a three month session is what causes failure I have some severe questions on what the heck you're doing. Speaker recall I have no problems with personally. You mention that this will show that the Underhusen can handle work and responsibility, what do you have in mind in that vein? If this bill passes what is your greater vision for these offices of the Underhusen?
[1:50 PM] Chanku: I've been talking with the Monarch over ways to invigorate the Underhusen/Storting, however the Monarch has expressed apprehension over the ability for the Storting/Underhusen to actually be able to handle and do what it would be given to do.(edited)
[1:51 PM] Chanku: Additionally the extra day to three extra days doesn't lead to failures
[1:51 PM] Chanku: however it does give more time to the Underhusen, and more time able to discuss bills and to discuss ideas
[1:53 PM] Chanku: My general hope is to return some semblance of respect to the Underhusen, and the Storting as a whole. The Speaker's powers allows the Speaker to steer the Underhusen and if people wish to be elected and become Speaker they can lay out a plan that they wish to lead the Underhusen forward, allowing for a more concrete agenda for the Underhusen each session.
[1:55 PM] Chanku: My hope is to also cut down on the people being elected because of memes, and to try and push the Underhusen into a direction that is more meritocratic and more active.
[1:56 PM] Crushita: So is the Monarch's apprehensions towards the Storting being able to handle what it would be given to do a reaction to your bill or is this bill a reaction to that apprehension? I'd also appreciate some more concrete answers on the offices. You mentioned Grammar checking, but Mathyland does that by his own volition anyway. If I'm correct, record keeping is already a responsibility of the Speaker no? While I appreciate attempting to change the direction of the Underhusen, beyond a few procedural things that already seem to be addressed the only direction for these offices to take in my mind are towards areas already covered by the Riksrad.
[1:56 PM] Chanku: the bill is a reaction to that apprehension
[1:57 PM] Chanku: additionally such offices are at the discretion of the Speaker, Taulover, however I have discussed more concrete offices with him.
[1:58 PM] taulover: The Procedural Rules actually don't explicitly assign any record keeping duties to the Speaker
[1:58 PM] Chanku: Additionally record keeping by the Speaker is...spotty at best
[1:58 PM] Chanku: If the Speaker is great at it, then it works fine
[1:58 PM] Chanku: otherwise we fail to get records actually updated, which is the more often result.
[1:59 PM] taulover: An alternative solution is to make record keeping an actual duty of the Speaker, as it had been in the past
[2:00 PM] taulover: Since if we only assigned it to an officer, that office could be dissolved or ignored
[2:00 PM] Chanku: That would still apply to the Speaker though
[2:00 PM] Chanku: Also Officers have standing to speak within the UH Halls, which does mean that an Office of Grammar Checking would allow Mathyland (or whoever is the Officer) can directly speak to the UH
[2:00 PM] Chanku: Also taulover(edited)
[2:01 PM] Chanku: the UH can make it a 'Permenant' Office (which I might rename to 'Standing' Office)
[2:01 PM] Chanku: which has to be filled by the Speaker
[2:01 PM] Chanku: and can only be dissolved by a vote
[2:01 PM] Chanku: additionally the Speaker can't just dissolve it or change it
[2:01 PM] Chanku: and the UH can just appoint someone by a vote
[2:01 PM] Chanku: (Or dismiss someone if they plain ignore it)
[2:01 PM] taulover: That doesn't solve the issue of the position's duties being ignored though, see: secretary
[2:02 PM] Crushita: Out of curiosity then, Chanku and taulover, what are your ideas then that you have discussed?
[2:02 PM] taulover: Chanku proposed a few offices
[2:02 PM] Wintermoot: watches the work of the Wintrean Senate and People
[2:03 PM] Chanku: :stuck_out_tongue:
[2:03 PM] Chanku: In any case
[2:03 PM] taulover: Wait Wintermoot what are your thoughts on Chanku's proposal for your new role in Speaker selection?
[2:03 PM] Crushita: ^
[2:04 PM] Crushita: Wintermoots opinion would be very helpful here, after all this directly involves him.
[2:04 PM] Chanku: Wintermoot was eh about it
[2:04 PM] Chanku: I discussed it with him prior to proposing it
[2:04 PM] Chanku: He doesn't seem to necessarily be for or against it
[2:04 PM] Chanku: (IIRC) moreso that he would do it if it was passed
[2:04 PM] Chanku: Albeit he may speak for himself more if he so desires.
[2:04 PM] Wintermoot: As I told Chanku, it seems awfully bureaucratic, but if it's what the UH wants then I don't oppose it
[2:05 PM] Crushita: The entire thing seems to be setting up a bureaucracy for an unknown purpose.
[2:05 PM] Chanku: I've stated my reasons prior
[2:06 PM] Wintermoot: Obviously it's to be rid of me :frowning: :stuck_out_tongue:
[2:06 PM] Chanku: If it was to be rid of you Wintermoot, it wouldn't give you power over Speaker Selection.
[2:06 PM] Wintermoot: Maybe that's so I lower my guard! :stuck_out_tongue:
[2:06 PM] Chanku: In any case, Taulover beyond the things I've proposed, you can't do much to ensure an office is doing what it is supposed to do at this time.
[2:07 PM] Wintermoot: In any case, the Storting is a vexing problem, indeed
[2:07 PM] Chanku: The solution I've proposed is to allow the UH to select someone who is better for the job, if it is being ignored
[2:07 PM] Chanku: if the entire UH is so unwilling to act in that matter, then the UH has a bigger problem on its hands
[2:07 PM] Crushita: Honestly my biggest concern at this point is probably how much I've had to ask about. You've apparently talked a great deal about this in private but haven't given the public this information despite it being quite pertinent to the bill in question.
[2:07 PM] taulover: Right, I'm just saying that an alternative is to simply make it a responsibility of the Speaker de jure
[2:08 PM] Chanku: My main issue is that the Speaker changes each session
[2:08 PM] Chanku: as such the Speaker's performance of duties can be...sometimes lackluster.(edited)
[2:09 PM] Chanku: Offices exist and Officers remain in their position until dismissed, which introduces stability into the workings of matters of the Underhusen
[2:09 PM] taulover: Ah right, you want Underhusen Officers to be filled by non-Skrifa
[2:09 PM] Chanku: Not all of them, but some of them.
[2:10 PM] Crushita: Also you haven't told me any solid plans for Underhusen officers despite tau himself saying that you have proposed a few. And I think this is the third time I've asked this question?
[2:10 PM] Chanku: Additionally the Offices I would like to see established is the Office of Information and the Office of Legal Counsel
[2:10 PM] Crushita: Oh perfect timing on my part
[2:10 PM] Chanku: The latter would be intended to be held by a non-skrifa
[2:10 PM] Chanku: The position is intended to provide impartial legal advice on a bill or action of the Speaker/UH
[2:11 PM] Chanku: Or provide legal advice regarding things that the UH is unsure of
[2:11 PM] taulover: I notice that you've left out the record keeping office
[2:12 PM] Chanku: and, in the very unlikely chance the UH/Speaker/Officers of the UH are sued for actions taken in the commission of their duties, they would represent them in the court.
[2:12 PM] Chanku: and taulover I'll get to that :stuck_out_tongue:
[2:12 PM] Chanku: The Office of Information would be an evolution of the Secretary of sorts
[2:12 PM] Chanku: The Office would be charged with making sure the public is informed, along with raising the profile of the UH/Storting
[2:13 PM] Chanku: they would, ideally, assist in the drafting of Orendi Articles involving the UH, as well as putting out dispatches and information regarding actions of the UH.
[2:13 PM] Chanku: There can also be an Office of Records, which would deal with record keeping duties
[2:13 PM] Chanku: Things like the Law Archives and the like
[2:14 PM] Chanku: Although that could just be given to an Officer within the Office of Information
[2:15 PM] Crushita: Well thats nice to know. My final question is if you could provide all this information in the citizens platform thread that Mathyland has made?
[2:16 PM] Chanku: I would be willing to do so.
[2:16 PM] Crushita: Thank you.
[2:44 PM] Chanku: @ Crushita I hope this is to your liking:
http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=5233.new#new[3:10 PM] Doc: seems a bit undemocratic, don't you think, to have skrifa essentially vote themselves into permanent positions, particularly since, as you've noted, people's interest in running for office seems to be on the decline
[3:11 PM] Chanku: I'm not sure I follow
[3:11 PM] Chanku: Additionally the majority of our system is undemocratic
[3:13 PM] Chanku: However, if your concern is of people just using the UH to vote themselves into an Officer position, the UH voting someone into an Officer position isn't permanent. Additionally if people don't like that person they can elect someone who will appoint (or at least vote for) someone better.(edited)
[3:14 PM] Chanku: and my hope is to be able to use the positions to increase interest, however I am trying to prepare for the worst case (four seat sessions for a while), while hoping for the best.
[3:27 PM] Chanku: @ Doc if you could elaborate on your objections, that would be great
[3:33 PM] Doc: perhaps i misread the 'permanent offices' part
[3:33 PM] Doc: are these not positions that are to be filled until such time as the UH sees fit to vacate them
[3:33 PM] Chanku: The Offices refer to the Offices themselves, not the Officers
[3:34 PM] Chanku: The Offices are to be filled by the Speaker, and are only able to be dissolved or amened by a vote of the UH(edited)
[3:34 PM] Chanku: The Officer serves at the discretion of the Speaker (and technically the Underhusen)(edited)
[3:35 PM] Chanku: A 'Standing Office' (the 'Permanent' Offices established by a vote) is simply an Office the UH deems as important enough to remove from the purview of the Speaker entirely