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So I know we got kind of burned out after the failure of the Open Assembly, and the Underhusen is pretty busy with the citizenship revocation deal, but I’ve been thinking about solutions to our Constitutional Convention. I’m not giving up on the Open Assembly model if that’s the way people want to go, but I figured it doesn’t hurt to give other options. Read the following in the broadest way you can, meaning everything can be tweaked to make it the way we want and that I’m just giving a very general idea of an option.
This form of government would be similar to the British Parliament. There would be two houses: the House of Lords and House of Commons (we of course could use names to better fit our theme (maybe even just OH and UH); these are just the ones the UK uses).

The upper house would consist of the nobility, aka Dukes, Counts, and Knights (referring to this http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=1223.msg14091#msg14091 (credit goes to Weissreich for bringing it up)). First of all, this would mean we would have to revamp this system, but I don’t think it would be too difficult. Wintermoot is the only one who can give out these titles, so the upper house would only consist of those he trusts and knows are experienced members. I would assume then that the current Overhusen (and probably most of the Jarls) may be knighted as they were already people previously appointed by him. The Storting could probably have the influence to recommend Wintermoot to having someone knighted to join the upper house (maybe by awarding someone a Wintreath Commendation?). To be clear, the two houses are technically equal, but the upper house is more exclusive and is put in place as a check so the experienced can block or amend the bills presented by the lower house.

The lower house would obviously consist of non-nobles. It would be something that citizens have to apply for, meaning not necessarily every non-noble citizen is in the lower house. There may be some minor requirement (like 15 posts or require 5 members to support their joining) to make it so that the lower house isn’t just everyone who isn’t a noble and to prevent inactive citizens from joining. When a member of the lower house is knighted/made a noble, they probably would then apply to join the upper house (and there could be a vote or the Speaker could just formally announce them).

Both houses would each be presided over by a Speaker and SPT/Vice/Deputy Speaker (again, the names could be changed… The two houses should probably have different speaker titles to prevent confusion). More officer positions could be created if needed – perhaps a secretary, whip, or devil’s advocate, though these could also be fulfilled by the speaker/vice. These Speakers would lead discussion, moderate threads, present the bills to the other house/Monarch, etc. They would be elected by their respective houses probably every 4 months or so. In my opinion, the elections should use ranked-choice voting, and the second most voted for candidate would have the option to accept the Vice Speaker position (if not, then the next candidate; and if not them, then one can be appointed by the Speaker).

The legislative process would be that either house can draft, debate, and vote on a bill, which (if passed) would then move to the other house for voting or debate, depending on their motion. If the second house does not pass the bill, then they may make amendments to the bill, then send it back to the first house for the same process. Once an identical form is passed by both houses, then the bill is presented to the Monarch for Royal Assent. If no agreement can be had between the two houses, then the bill fails.

Debates and voting would have specific default timeframes (with the ability to motion to extend or expedite) -- probably quite similar to the current UH procedure – to prevent drawn out discussions and make sure everyone gives input by knowing exactly when they are able to do so.

There would be two separate chambers (boards) for the houses, though a common board where members of both houses could talk about bills or whatever would also exist. This could be particularly useful in the instance where a bill needs to be negotiated. I would also assume that the speakers of both houses would interact a lot more than in the current model.

The judiciary could work by having the Monarch select a chief justice from either house of the Storting, then the speakers each select a member from their respective house to serve as associate judges (though, again, this doesn’t necessarily need to be the case). The judges would all need to be people who have no business in the case and are known to be able to act impartially.
The pros of this model:

• The point of this model is so that more people may be brought into the political process to give their own opinion (as we would see in an Open Assembly), but it separates the more experienced members from everyone else to allow them to not be drowned out in an Open Assembly.
• People would not need to worry whether their voice would be heard or have to reach out to a representative to give their idea otherwise.
• It gives people something to work towards: new citizens to get into the lower house and members of the lower house to get into the upper house (as well as reinvigorating the noble titles concept).
• The point of the two houses being equal and have to work together is to prevent the lower house from working on a bill, then the upper house just vetoing it; the upper house would make amendments then send it back until it looks acceptable by both sides.
• The elections would be less frequent and consist of fewer positions to lessen the elections for elections’ sake bit (making inactivity less of a problem), yet would also give them more meaning (and likely more turnout) as they would be more competitive and would be voted on by people who would be actively working with the elected.
• Separating the more experienced members also allows newer members to get a better chance at getting a spot since they both aren’t running for the same positions. These new members would probably have to prove themselves a little bit to get elected into the fewer positions, but they would be actively taking part in the debate and voting of bills, which would allow them to do so.
• By having two separate houses, tyranny by majority is also less likely to happen since there would be two separate majorities.
• Royal Assent would make the current Overhusen unnecessary and would allow the current OH members to take more part than serving in the interest of the Monarch as the Monarch would have that ability himself in the Royal Assent/veto.
• As most citizens would most likely be in either house of the Storting, when a ratification is put before the citizenry, we’d already have a good idea on the outcome and not be blindsided ( I’m not jaded). The citizens who would vote on ratifications would probably be in the Storting already anyway.
• This model is ultimately supposed to be a compromise between the Open Assembly and current bicameral models, and I hope it’s seen as such.

Thank you, and let me know what you all think.

Let me start off by saying I love almost every part of this.

I have one question though: how would new citizens go about proving themselves to be inducted into the House of Commons? Could they have some sort of fast-track application process where both Houses of the Assembly ask them questions and test their activity and merit? Because that would seal the deal for me to support this completely, not just as a compromise to end the convention.

I also very much like that the upper House has to amend a bill too, not just fail it. While I understand the reasoning for having things happen that way, in recent weeks we've seen that such a system can inspire quite a bit of bad blood between the two chambers.

I think this may well be a viable alternative to the Open Assembly that has the core aspects I think the region was interested in moving towards whilst retaining enough of the current system and its protections to appease the OA's critics. I'd really like to get the thoughts of my fellow Skifra on this: @Pengu @HannahB @Point Breeze @North @Barnes.

If possible, we could take some of the suggestions I collated in my discussion thread and see if any of those would fit into this, for added appeasement value? :p


And of course, I am absolutely and ardently in favour of anything and everything that makes use of the House system in new and interesting ways. This would, imo, be a boon for cultural activity and involvement in the House system, giving our region yet another truly unique aspect. Bravo, Gerrick, bravo!

RIP my inbox.  Mentions everywhere, several by @Weissreich in the past 12 hours.  I feel so loved.

Anyway, I like this idea and if I imagine it in action, it seems like a very fun way for people to get involved and a way for us to RP up what is normally seen as dry and tedious work.  However, I feel like the # of nobles residing in Wintreath has gone downhill lately, so I feel like we'd have to have a fairly broad ascension of several families or individuals into nobility or into titles to have a sustainable number in the upper house.  Further, what if the nobles don't wish to participate in the legislature? Can they opt out, or are they duty bound to participate as a condition of accepting their title?

I think an opt-out clause would be a sensible inclusion, imo. Also, if I'm understanding Gerrick's suggestion rightly this would allow the elevation (and hopefully encourage the use of) Knightly positions in our regional politics and roleplays

All round I think this has a lot of potential. Soz PB, we just love you too much

I think that it's a wonderful idea!!  Especially because I'm a pretty big Anglophile. 

We keep the Overhusen and we make the Underhusen the lower, OA house.  It also would make it easier for people interested in politics to be hooked into the region, considering that usually an election is at least a month away from when they apply for citizenship!!

My big question is: can people be involved in the upper-house and the legislation without being involved in the House RP? While people in the Upper House and the government can engage in the RP aspects (and I would even encourage them to ) I think that it should be possible for those who don't wish to participate in both at the same time to be able to.

I also don't want to see the problem the real House of Lords has were a few small families and groups dominate the entire body.

Beside that I like this idea, I like a fairly open and yet still limited lower house, which can get lots of people involved. I actually really like this proposal, a lot more than any of the other previous proposals, even my own.

The House RP is by no means required for people who're part of a House, it simply rose out of Mootle's original suggestion and the collaboration that came from it betwixt us It'd serve as a good way to get people interested in RP, but it doesn't force them into it.

I'm glad you guys like it Damn, you guys respond fast, though.

I have one question though: how would new citizens go about proving themselves to be inducted into the House of Commons? Could they have some sort of fast-track application process where both Houses of the Assembly ask them questions and test their activity and merit? Because that would seal the deal for me to support this completely, not just as a compromise to end the convention.

Yeah, that absolutely could work.

If possible, we could take some of the suggestions I collated in my discussion thread and see if any of those would fit into this, for added appeasement value? :p

And of course, I am absolutely and ardently in favour of anything and everything that makes use of the House system in new and interesting ways. This would, imo, be a boon for cultural activity and involvement in the House system, giving our region yet another truly unique aspect. Bravo, Gerrick, bravo!

Definitely, we want this to work with everyone. And integrating those RP aspects was something I aimed at

However, I feel like the # of nobles residing in Wintreath has gone downhill lately, so I feel like we'd have to have a fairly broad ascension of several families or individuals into nobility or into titles to have a sustainable number in the upper house.  Further, what if the nobles don't wish to participate in the legislature? Can they opt out, or are they duty bound to participate as a condition of accepting their title?

Yeah, as I stated, it would require Wintermoot to knight certain individuals (dukes and counts would be much more rare, I'd think), though as I understand it, knighting someone does not make their family a noble family, and everyone in a noble family is not necessarily a noble (though that could be the case if Wintermoot wanted it).

And, as Weissreich suggested, they could opt-out if they want (or just not apply to join). They couldn't be forced to vote/debate since they could just abstain anyway.

We keep the Overhusen and we make the Underhusen the lower, OA house.

I think you're off a little in the understanding. Try to read through it again

My big question is: can people be involved in the upper-house and the legislation without being involved in the House RP? While people in the Upper House and the government can engage in the RP aspects (and I would even encourage them to ) I think that it should be possible for those who don't wish to participate in both at the same time to be able to.

I also don't want to see the problem the real House of Lords has were a few small families and groups dominate the entire body.

Absolutely, only take part in what you want. And my intention was that individuals are given more power rather than families, though I'd assume family members may work together.

Gerrick, if this passes, I'm going to try my damndest to get you elevated to the rank of Paragon, and I won't rest until there's at least a Commendation.

Gerrick, if this passes, I'm going to try my damndest to get you elevated to the rank of Paragon, and I won't rest until there's at least a Commendation.

Haha, oh you.

This is going to require significant buy-in from the Monarch.  I'm interested to hear what he'll think.

Let me just say as someone who wants to eventually be as involved with the regional politics as i can, I love this idea! It's great for someone like me to start small yet still be involved. I also like that from what I understand this idea can give me and people like me involved. A++

This is going to require significant buy-in from the Monarch.  I'm interested to hear what he'll think.

That it does. I appreciate Gerrick's well thought-out proposal and the support that it has, but in evaluating proposals for new legislatures, I have to look at different criteria than what most of the region has to look at. I have to look at the impact that it will have on the balance of legislative power, it's potential impact on the non-political state of the region, and whether the ideas are in-line with regional principles and values.

That being said, I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea of politicizing our regional nobility...as a non-political region, I am uncomfortable with the potential politicization of anything. However, to adopt this proposal would be to determine that one portion of the Citizenry, a portion that's arbitrarily determined, to have their own separate representation from the rest of the Citizenry. I'm concerned the idea could give rise to a Wintrean aristocracy, where people covet titles of nobility not for the recognition of merit it currently represents, but for their own political prestige in the region.

Additionally, it's not necessarily true that I would recommend everyone with a title to serve in the legislature...not that I'm talking about anyone that currently holds a title, but for example had Alterra or Denth Kasten held a title prior to the events that led to their departure, I would not have revoked it. As a merit-based recognition, they would have deserved to keep their titles in the event that they ever came back, while at the same time they obviously would not be people who would have my confidence or who I would recommend in general.

I'm also uncomfortable with the idea that the Storting should pressure the Monarchy into granting more titles, or into granting titles to specific individuals, or into granting titles for political purposes or for the purposes of making a political system work. Overall, I don't believe that titles should become so...casual, not even the non-noble titles.

On a more minor note, the original Constitutional Convention intentionally designed the current system so that legislation would not have to be reconciled between chambers...I think it the idea of reconciliation was rightly seen as a time consuming and messy process, especially on a forum. I personally think that was a good call back then, and I don't see much cause to reverse that now, to be honest.

It's never fun to be the person expressing doubt in something that seems to be universally liked, but I have concerns about one of the fundamental aspects of this proposal...hopefully at least my reasons are understandable, and this is a debate we can still have from here...

Well, if we take away the part about the nobility serving as the upper house, would that change your view of this?

And I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that the OH is fine as it with just passing and failing bills, instead of more directly being involved by amending it and sending it back the UH. The latter approach would make the good minds in the OH much more useful to the legislature, increasing activity in a way that requires very little effort, and increasing the harmony between the two chambers.

I also don't completely understand the criticism about politicisation. This would be no more political than our current system, or the Open Assembly we'd considered for so long.

Lastly, this system would bring some much needed fun to the legislature.