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This was not a personal attack by North. And I'll be requesting that people outside the UH and OH leave Gov alone, unless they wish to speak in his defence. Please contact us privately if you wish to contribute your own evidence, or if you post it here, post just the evidence without making comment to Gov. I think we may have gotten a feel for the reasons people are for this. Those who are against it may make their voices known too.

I am for various reasons against revoking Govindia's citizenship, but I admit that in my absences I must have missed several incidents that contribute to the evidence against him. Whilst I believe punishing someone for their personal issues isn't appropriate, neither is their not working to do something about said issues.

As such, I'll probably keep my hand out of this one.

I'll weigh in fully when I'm off work...however I wanted to clarify that a revocation doesn't ban someone.  It strips them of citizenship, but still allows them to post around the forums.  An actual ban would have to be followed up after a revocation/trial via a PnG (Person(a) Non Grata, it's early, so the correct name escapes me) or other means.

Can it not technically be included in the same Act?

That said, I've said I'm leaning in favour of a revocation, but not a PnG declaration, depending on what Gov does after a revocation, so it might be wise to make those two separate bills anyway, and to work on the Revocation bill first.

This will have to wait until we actually have a Speaker, though, but I suppose we can introduce a bill in the Platform before one has been selected.

Personally, I will oppose any Persona Non Grata declaration if we don't give revocation of citizenship a shot first. It's the same basic principle that led me to oppose granting Pengu Paragon status before giving him the Wintreath Commendation.

My reasoning differs slightly, but overall I agree.

Also just a little bit of information here....technically one may be declared PnG with citizenship, as there is no explicitly declaration otherwise in our laws, generally it's viewed that a Citizens can not be declared PnG, until they no longer have Citizenship.

So a PnG would have to come after a successful revocation...

Govindia, please quit abusing the report system. Quite frankly, Daylen isn't doing anything with dislikes that you haven't done a dozen times. If you believe that it's actionable by admin, I'll apply the same punishments to you for each time you've done it in the past.

Otherwise, I know this is a sensitive topic that invites drama, but let's please keep it civil...for the sake of the community and the principles we were founded on if nothing else.

Govindia, please quit abusing the report system. Quite frankly, Daylen isn't doing anything with dislikes that you haven't done a dozen times. If you believe that it's actionable by admin, I'll apply the same punishments to you for each time you've done it in the past.

Otherwise, I know this is a sensitive topic that invites drama, but let's please keep it civil...for the sake of the community and the principles we were founded on if nothing else.

Point noted, Your Majesty.

Snark from Gov? Never thought I'd see the day.

Snark from Gov? Never thought I'd see the day.[emoji14]

That wasn't snark.  I was acknowledging his point.

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The "Your Majesty" bit came off as very snarky.

The "Your Majesty" bit came off as very snarky.[emoji14]

Not at all.  I was addressing him with his title

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With regards to all this... I agree something has to happen the current status quo is untenable...

We have given Govindia chance and chance again, though I believe his behavior is not actively malicious; it does often come off that way. He has (however unintentionally) harassed numerous members and citizens here and been a general nuisance, often provoking people and being provoked into flaming and general disorder. Is this so bad... probably not, his worse offences are agreed to have been on the IRC, where he is now banned from. This begs the question why revoke his citizenship and possibly make him PnG... well we've got to make the decision as a community, is this what we want to do? That's not for me or any one person to decide...

In general we have actually been very supportive of Govindia while he has been here (despite what he says); I recall a few nights on the IRC where numerous people, (sometimes up to half the channel) were talking to him, trying to give him advice and support, I and a few others have done this numerous times, even VoiPing with him a few times when he was sad.
Additionally while he says he never receives support in elections I have voted for him in a few and for example he has been very close to being elected a few times in the past. As he also stated he is apparently "discriminated against" in terms of other government (ie. OH and Cabinet positions) But he has been given ample opportunity to attain these positions, in-fact the only people given the chance to become the Jarl of Defense were him and Chanku; however he failed to prove himself for the position, the same for all the positions; you get them from merit and doing something positive for the region.

As I said in my opening sentence the current situation is untenable... there are a few ways it can reach a state of equilibrium though; Gov could try to meet the people who have extended the olive leaf halfway; if he can admit and see when he has done wrong by someone else, and why... If he can back down and take it easy sometimes and leave other things be when they don't need to be pushed. As I say there are quite a few people willing to help him, but he has to be willing to help himself and help us help him...

The other option of course is the stick, instead of the carrot; we can do this and parade the evidence against him in-front of the entire region, revoke his citizenship and hope that in doing that he will realize what's going on, and be able to be a better person. Which is a big reason I don't support PnG...

Quite a few people here have been persecuted or discriminated against before in communities, and we seriously want to keep everything here as fair and open as possible. And that's what I (and no doubt others) intend to make sure happens.

Addendum: To Clarify my position; as at the current time it seems Govindia is not going to meet us halfway, as he shows little remorse for his actions, and there is little little to no sign of him changing anytime soon, a revocation may be out only solution.

While I agree overall, I'm going to mention that @Emoticonius and I tried to help him privately after the revocation attempt a year ago. I actually thought it was working, but then Gov displayed the exact same behaviour again, that led to him getting perma-banned from IRC.

I'm afraid Gov is beyond our ability to help him, and he's been given countless chances. I am of the belief that the only way Gov might improve this behaviour is by seeking professional help that we cannot provide.

This isn't punishment to Gov, but an attempt to get him to see just how bad the situation has become.

That said, the talk of a PnG declaration (and thus the words "ban," "banned" and all things similar) might be taking this too far. The whole point is to send a message that this behaviour can no longer be overlooked, but also our wish for him to endeavour to improve said behaviour.

It will be very difficult to convince me to back out of supporting a revocation, but it will be nigh-on impossible to convince me of supporting a PnG declaration at this time as well.

EDIT: A part of the reason Gov doesn't typically receive much sympathy when action has been taken, is precisely because of his habit to fail to see just how badly he has behaved, and to deflect the blame onto his victims.