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Oh, my apologies.

Still, the points stand. People are more likely to respond to that with another PM and having a customs like this that relies on Wintermoot doing everything himself may not be ideal.

If the key here is encourage people to interact with the community, it would be really healthy to look into ways how crushing majority of their initial contact with the community is not just Wintermoot (regardless of how great and awesome he is).

It's the 4 least intimidating threads that don't require any specific requirements, and likewise are very relaxed as far as posting lengths, since the first is up to them on how long it is, the 2nd is literally just saying they want to be adopted, the 3rd is literally just saying what they want, and the 4th is literally just telling people to ask questions.

With the current trend for people hosting forum games and stuff, it's never been easier to get involved. It's not like we're asking people to reach 500 posts or something. 5 posts just makes Wintermoot's job so much easier, and all the gruntwork that goes into reviewing citizenship applications, and then later having to revoke their citizenships, could finally be cut out and the energy expended in that thankless task could be put to much more efficient use elsewhere.

I wasn't saying 5 was a difficult goal to reach; I was saying that when I joined I was very nervous about posting and the idea that every post I made was being watched with the critical eye of the government might have put me off...

Also thinking about the logistics of this, would it be between them posting an application and that application getting accepted, because sometimes that's really quick? So would we add a margin where they can make posts, I remember I myself posted my app and then didn't log back in for like a day. And quite a few people are really quiet for a while before becoming very active and others are very loud for a few days and then completely disappear.

I think the minimum post thing is a solution to one problem (stopping people with only an application getting made citizens and then needing to be revoked) but it's net casts too wide, not everyone is the same and this might deter other people from joining. I think a more lax approach would be better suited (to Wintreath especially) one where you aren't pressured to interact even if at the time you don't want to that much. A longer time-frame so that you can get involved at your own pace, and are already secure in thinking your a citizen (the same as everyone else) when you are interacting with people.
I like tatte's idea as well, it would be more effective to add the ability to revoke and approve citizenship to more than just Moot or at least a dedicated person to help keep track of everything involved in the process.

And the idea that something could be sent to try and get people more involved... though I am less sure about a PM and think that the "welcome" responses on the topic are the best place for this, because it is the forum and is right there for the citizen in question to see as well as anyone else considering joining.

I agree that having multiple able to do the masking would be the most efficient, but if that's not something Moot wants, then it's a bit of a moot point.

I agree that having multiple able to do the masking would be the most efficient, but if that's not something Moot wants, then it's a bit of a moot point.

Can I just say... that was a fantastic pun

And yeah, I know that it's all up to Wintermoot, everything is really, but I think he listens to us all, so it's important to keep his options open, and that's why I was trying to be broad, suggesting that they didn't necessarily have to have the powers, we could cut out half the work with what's basically an assistant role(s) who would keep track of things for him.

Moot will like what Moot likes; but I think if we don't make loads of suggestions then he might not be able to find the avenue which bests suits him.

(PS: The whole tone of this makes it seems like Wintermoot is god and we are all praying to him )

I agree that having multiple able to do the masking would be the most efficient, but if that's not something Moot wants, then it's a bit of a moot point.

Can I just say... that was a fantastic pun

And yeah, I know that it's all up to Wintermoot, everything is really, but I think he listens to us all, so it's important to keep his options open, and that's why I was trying to be broad, suggesting that they didn't necessarily have to have the powers, we could cut out half the work with what's basically an assistant role(s) who would keep track of things for him.

Moot will like what Moot likes; but I think if we don't make loads of suggestions then he might not be able to find the avenue which bests suits him.

(PS: The whole tone of this makes it seems like Wintermoot is god and we are all praying to him )

I'm glad you understand 

In all honesty, I think you are overestimating the effect a post requirement has on citizenship. I'm also concerned about giving masking powers to other people. How will we decide who gets it? A potential recipe for disaster.

I'm glad you understand 

In all honesty, I think you are overestimating the effect a post requirement has on citizenship. I'm also concerned about giving masking powers to other people. How will we decide who gets it? A potential recipe for disaster.

Well I don't think it will have that big an effect, I just don't like the idea of cajoling people into posting I think they should be free to post however much they want as they want. I myself overthink things, and I overthought things when I joined the region, though I understand I am my own person, I still think a requirement for posting sets an unfortunate precedent with the applications.

I did try.

And I actually suggested something along similar lines (though not for this particular application, but to make it easier for the RP area to be kept up to date), but it ended up not happening. I can't recall exactly what the reasons were, though.

A possible reason I would be hesitant to give other people such power were I in his shoes is the possible security risk it entails, but that's just me, and simply appointing people I trust implicitly should do the trick. It's not fool-proof, though.

There's also a lot to be said for simply posting in new citizenship application threads, imho - I've noticed some of us have started to do this more often in recent months, but by engaging people in conversation right off the bat, asking what they're interested in, pointing them in the right direction and generally being friendly leaves a better first impression.

Perhaps we should have a small team of people with citizenship masking ability, rather than just one?

On the posting requirement itself, I don't think a 5 or 10 post minimum is going to put people off. Maybe we need to make it clear that off-site forums operate at a more measured pace? I think a lot of people expect it to be as busy as the RMB often is, and don't come back because there's no immediate response.

I personally think a small post requirement would be good for citizenship if we keep the current legislature model. If people are put off from posting 5/10 times, then they weren't going to stay here in the first place. I just joined a few months ago, and I had enough just in my citizenship application and intro AMA, so I don't think it'd deter those who plan on doing more than just applying for citizenship then leaving. If anything I think it'd create more activity by encouraging new people to get involved, especially if we point them to some areas where they might be interested.

To go off that, we might want to have mentors actively mention them in certain threads they might be interested in just to get the conversation started for them, so they aren't afraid to post something themselves. Also, if the welcome message is very friendly and not pushy (accompanied by all the people who welcome the new person on their citizenship application), I think they wouldn't be scared by the post requirement.

Then again, if we have a different legislature model that requires an opting-in or other requirement, then it would still be helpful, though not as necessary.

I agree that having multiple able to do the masking would be the most efficient, but if that's not something Moot wants, then it's a bit of a moot point.

I think what people don't really understand is that it's a bit more complicated than that.

The different masks include Administrators in that, so logically only an Administrator would be able to do the masking.

So Moot would have to find someone that he trusts to:

*Not abuse the masking system
*Not destroy the forums in any way (deleting forums, fucking the system by changing/deleting any of the coding)
*Not ban people willy nilly

And the like.  If the system here is like any that I've worked with, there's no way to restrict one's access to the Admin CP in specific ways (IE making it so someone could ONLY mask citizens) except for Global Moderators who, if I recall, have access to the smallest features that wouldn't be able to really damage the forums.

So the person would really have access to the ENTIRE Admin CP.

Apparently there IS a way to code it, so this post is essentially null now. 

It's the 4 least intimidating threads that don't require any specific requirements, and likewise are very relaxed as far as posting lengths, since the first is up to them on how long it is, the 2nd is literally just saying they want to be adopted, the 3rd is literally just saying what they want, and the 4th is literally just telling people to ask questions.

I wasn't saying 5 was a difficult goal to reach; I was saying that when I joined I was very nervous about posting and the idea that every post I made was being watched with the critical eye of the government might have put me off...

Hence why I chose the 4 least intimidating threads.    Some threads in other regions actually require that you post a welcome thread on top of a citizenship thread.  But on top of that, they require that those threads be a paragraph or longer.  I think that's quite a bit much, honestly...even though I myself would be fine writing a paragraph.

Here, a welcome thread could literally just be a title and then you saying hi.  And likewise, the other threads don't ask anything of anyone at all, and are very relaxed in how you can go about them.

I appreciate all the thoughts and opinions expressed about my idea and the issue behind it...there were a lot of good thoughts and perspectives.

Hannah brings up a good point...I remember when I was new in NS and Spiritus that I was nervous for a good while. I was nervous about being a newbie to a game that obviously had a lot of history and meta-game that wasn't easy to understand for someone that was new. I was nervous about being in a new community and doing something stupid. I was nervous that I'd go on for too long and annoy people. I'm not sure that a five-post requirement would have kept me from applying, and Wintreath has many more areas open to guests than Spiritus did (and does), but I can understand that some people might feel intimidated. The question then is, how do we go about making them feel less intimated?

On the other hand, to get to the point that you apply for Citizenship, you have to jump through a lot of hoops...a new player has to create a nation, receive our telegram, move to the region, apply to the forums, and post their application. Other then cases where someone found another region and moved, which is the exception rather than the rule, it seems odd for anyone to go through all that and then disappear. I don't think someone would register to the forums and apply without planning on using their Citizenship. But they aren't...why? Are they not finding what they wanted once they become one, or do they get confused on the forums and don't get the help they need?

Another thought comes to mind...are we over-emphasizing Citizenship and all the benefits of becoming one over joining the forums and the community? Would it be better if we focused more on getting people to join and take part in conversations before bringing up becoming a Citizen?

It seems there are many questions that need to be answered. I still don't think that a small post requirement would be a bad idea...it could encourage people to interact with the community and give them the push they need to get started. But there could be a number of issues at play, and it's obvious now that a requirement won't be the entire solution if we really want to convert those one-post CTEs into active members of the community.

I definitely think there's a risk that we're pushing people into citizenship a little early, before allowing them to really find their legs in the community. That said, I kind of see it as understandable behaviour - being a citizen usually implies a higher level of activity within the region, even if it is all NS-based activity, whereas a Village Drifter straight up states they're not here to stay.

If we could somehow work around this, get people to actively participate without signing up for citizenship, then sure, we'd end up with a far larger member base. However, a lot of them wouldn't be citizens; I think the best thing to do is promote forum activity IN GENERAL as much as we can, and simply encourage active members to sign on for citizenship as and when we can.

Another thought comes to mind...are we over-emphasizing Citizenship and all the benefits of becoming one over joining the forums and the community? Would it be better if we focused more on getting people to join and take part in conversations before bringing up becoming a Citizen?

No, to me it's no different than validating members before they join, which is a big thing that most message boards I join end up doing.  The only difference is that instead of waiting for your email to be validated/you going through the process yourself, you're posting an application.

So @Weissreich, how would you handle promotion of the forums on the region page? Remove the Citizenship stuff and just promote what we're doing on the forums?