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Laurentus
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  • The sith, at least if we ignore anything before episode 1, always followed the Rule of Two: one master, one apprentice. Ren and Snoke (yeah, his name is weird), as far as I could tell from episode 7, have a force called the Knights of Ren, which sounds like a bunch of Force-users. Ren's reverence for Vader might simply be because of his legendary power, and the fact that they got incredibly close to bringing order to the galaxy. Evidently, the Sith and this new order both use the Dark Side, but that doesn't make them the same.

    And you get drawn into arguments because, as far as I can tell, you like to argue. :P

    EDIT: But as far as can be surmised (since analysing movies that run for two hours doesn't leave much room for depth, compared to actual history), the Death Star would serve pretty much the same purpose. The war with the rebels must have been long and bloody for both sides.

    I'll just quote what the wiki has to say:
    Quote from: Wookieepedia on the Destruction of Alderaan
    From the very beginning of its design process, it was intended that the first Death Star be capable of destroying entire planets, but most Imperial strategists were certain that the threat alone would be enough to keep most worlds in line.

    Tarkin felt differently; as he saw it, the Rebels were growing bolder, and only a very public demonstration of the battle station's power— against a Rebel target—would succeed in giving them pause. His argument convinced Palpatine, and so the Emperor approved, in advance, the destruction of the peaceful world. In addition, Alderaan was already considered a priority target for providing political or strategic aid to the Rebel Alliance.

    They don't sound as neutral as you seem to think.

    Don't get me wrong, it's a completely despicable action, but in my mind, none more so than the a-bomb.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 01:28:24 PM by Laurentus »
    In die donker ure skink net duiwels nog 'n dop, 
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    Gerrick
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  • Can I just say how much I enjoy reading your guys' debates?
    2 people like this post: Laurentus, Ashton Mercer

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    Laurentus
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  • Take part, goddammit! :P
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    In die donker ure skink net duiwels nog 'n dop, 
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  • Can I just say how much I enjoy reading your guys' debates?
    who are you rooting for
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    Laurentus
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  • I don't think Gerrick is the type to take sides.
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    Gerrick
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  • I don't think Gerrick is the type to take sides.
    Quite true. Unless I've really researched a topic, I prefer to listen to what others have to say.

    BUT for the spirit of debate: I think the Sith are a HELL of a lot worse than the Jedi, though of course the Jedi have their faults; also, regardless of what might have been, I think the nuclear bombs should not have been dropped.
    3 people like this post: Laurentus, HannahB, taulover

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    Laurentus
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  • That may be true, but I'm having a hard time imagining you joining either side if we lived in the Star Wars universe. :P
    In die donker ure skink net duiwels nog 'n dop, 
    Satan sit saam sy kinders en kyk hoe kom die son op. 
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  • That may be true, but I'm having a hard time imagining you joining either side if we lived in the Star Wars universe. :P
    grey jedi 4 life
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  • That may be true, but I'm having a hard time imagining you joining either side if we lived in the Star Wars universe. :P
    grey jedi 4 life
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    taulover
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    Laurentus
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  • I am an anarchist at heart, but my nature is such that I definitely would have been seduced by the sheer power of the dark side.
    1 person likes this post: Ashton Mercer
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    Gerrick
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  • That may be true, but I'm having a hard time imagining you joining either side if we lived in the Star Wars universe. :P
    I don't know, the Jedi have so much knowledge of the universe just ready to be ingested that that might tempt me.
    grey jedi 4 life
    Church.
    I am an anarchist at heart, but my nature is such that I definitely would have been seduced by the sheer power of the dark side.
    I don't think I would be seduced at all by the dark side as I don't really want power. Power, ambition, and passion are like the opposite of me, so there isn't really anything there for me. Sure, some dark-side abilities would be great to use, but I don't really want to rule the galaxy, kill a bunch of people, or be feared or anything.

    But I can agree that all of the rules of the Jedi are too much for me. There's a difference between structure and just being overbearing.

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    Laurentus
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  • Oh, I don't think I'd use the power of the dark side to rule over people. I'd just like to have it. Some poor mofo who tried to steal my ship would be incredibly sorry.

    EDIT: Although, now that I think of it, a good number of galactic leaders who annoyed me would find themselves flayed alive by my sick-nasty mind powers. And then I'd just casually go on, spreading anarchy to as many places as I could.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 10:55:36 PM by Laurentus »
    In die donker ure skink net duiwels nog 'n dop, 
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  • Oh, I don't think I'd use the power of the dark side to rule over people. I'd just like to have it. Some poor mofo who tried to steal my ship would be incredibly sorry.

    EDIT: Although, now that I think of it, a good number of galactic leaders who annoyed me would find themselves flayed alive by my sick-nasty mind powers. And then I'd just casually go on, spreading anarchy to as many places as I could.
    Oh, well in that case. :P The Dark Side corrupts, though, so I think if you got that powerful with it, it'd be too late for you to really just use it recreationally.
    1 person likes this post: taulover

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    Laurentus
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  • What evidence is there for that, actually? The same thing that led Anakin to betray the Jedi, also led him to betray the Sith: his intense love for, and need to save his family members.

    EDIT: The Jedi would have had him basically become a murder monk, not allowed to feel anything. The Sith just seemed to get caught up in the wrong emotions: hatred, greed, and lust for power.

    As far as I can tell, the new order that has risen up in Episode 7 seems to embrace the Jedi creed a lot more than the Sith one. It was a test of Obi-Wan's devotion to the Jedi order (and in their mind, the light side) when he had to kill Anakin. Likewise, something similar seemed to happen when Ren killed his father.

    So if the Jedi would deny all emotion, and the Sith are governed by the wrong ones, what's to stop someone from bringing balance by focusing on the positive?
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 11:17:26 PM by Laurentus »
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    taulover
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  • 1. Japan refuses to surrender even in dire odds. No matter what the Emperor thought during this time (all evidence indicates he had zero desire for peace until maybe unfortunately close to the bombings), his military leaders would refuse the idea of a surrender if it were proposed (it wasn't).
    2. The USA drops two atomic bombs after sending a vague warning to the Japanese government (which it promptly ignores). The bombs fall on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, two industrial cities that probably would have been targeted by the equally destructive firebombing campaigns that already ravaged Tokyo and that had killed double the number of people that the atomic bombs would.
    3. Directly because of this, the Emperor forces the military command to obey him and Japan surrenders. There's a reason the sentence "The enemy has, for the first time, used cruel bombs" leads Hirohito's speech to his own people on Japan's surrender, and it's not because he just found out what an incendiary bomb is. The bombs ended the war, plain and simple.
    I'm not going to debate the morality of the atomic bombings right now (we already had a whole discussion about it a few months ago), but I would like to challenge the narrative you present here.

    Japan's surrender was not solely due to the atomic bombings. The Soviets declared war on Japan and invaded Manchuria, breaking the Non-Aggression Pact signed in 1941, on the same day that the Americans bombed Nagasaki. Some historians, such as Tsuyoshi Hasegawa, argue that, much like it had borne the firebombings, Japan would still fight on in the face of the nuclear bombings, and that the atomic bombings were largely an act of strength against the USSR. Others, including James Maddox, support the traditional narrative you described. I personally cannot claim expertise in this field, but I think the Soviet declaration of war had at least some impact on the Japanese decision to surrender, even if it's debatable how much of a role it played.

    Like in the above thread, I'll also link here this rather excellent read about the surrender of Japan, especially with regards to the atomic bomb.
    However, this doesn't account for Rey's enslavement in the very beginning of Episode VII, nor does it account for the atrocities that the Sith have (maybe? Canon is confusing) committed in the past while fighting the Jedi (although the Jedi do have their fair share of child soldiers and brainwashing).
    Could you elaborate on why Rey's peonage is relevant here? I don't quite see the connection. In particular, the current vagueness regarding how she got abandoned on Jakku makes it difficult to ascribe the actions there to any particular sect, whether it be First Order, New Jedi Order, or something else.
    For the sake of convenience, let's ignore everything "canon"
    before Episode I and focus on what we can see in/deduce from the movies.

    Are you sure about that? They're not the Empire, but they definitely seem pretty Sith-y to me, especially with that Snopes guy and Kylo's reverence for Vader.
    There is nothing canon before Episode I currently. The canon wipe of April 25, 2014, means that anything published before that date, with the exception of the six films and TCW, is non-canon and under the "Legends" branding. The old canon has as such been shoved off into an alternate universe (though I personally prefer Legends).

    Also, Dark Siders and Sith are two different things. The Sith are a group of people who follow a particular set of ideologies, in addition to practicing the Dark Side of the Force. In the new canon, from what we know, the Rule of Two is also a key part of being Sith.
    EDIT: But as far as can be surmised (since analysing movies that run for two hours doesn't leave much room for depth, compared to actual history), the Death Star would serve pretty much the same purpose. The war with the rebels must have been long and bloody for both sides.

    I'll just quote what the wiki has to say:
    Quote from: Wookieepedia on the Destruction of Alderaan
    From the very beginning of its design process, it was intended that the first Death Star be capable of destroying entire planets, but most Imperial strategists were certain that the threat alone would be enough to keep most worlds in line.

    Tarkin felt differently; as he saw it, the Rebels were growing bolder, and only a very public demonstration of the battle station's power— against a Rebel target—would succeed in giving them pause. His argument convinced Palpatine, and so the Emperor approved, in advance, the destruction of the peaceful world. In addition, Alderaan was already considered a priority target for providing political or strategic aid to the Rebel Alliance.

    They don't sound as neutral as you seem to think.
    You say you're analyzing the movie, but you quote a Legends Wookieepedia article that is clearly drawing information from the EU. Huh?

    In any case, if we use Legends canon as a source, we come up with lots of nice things, including: a secret military base operated by the Royal House Organa, a rebel fleet showing up to defend Alderaan against the Death Star, Alderaanian funds clearly going to the Rebellion, etc.
    What evidence is there for that, actually? The same thing that led Anakin to betray the Jedi, also led him to betray the Sith: his intense love for, and need to save his family members.

    EDIT: The Jedi would have had him basically become a murder monk, not allowed to feel anything. The Sith just seemed to get caught up in the wrong emotions: hatred, greed, and lust for power.

    As far as I can tell, the new order that has risen up in Episode 7 seems to embrace the Jedi creed a lot more than the Sith one. It was a test of Obi-Wan's devotion to the Jedi order (and in their mind, the light side) when he had to kill Anakin. Likewise, something similar seemed to happen when Ren killed his father.

    So if the Jedi would deny all emotion, and the Sith are governed by the wrong ones, what's to stop someone from bringing balance by focusing on the positive?
    Palpatine manipulated Anakin's love for his wife by convincing him that the Dark Side of the Force was the only way to save her. As he did so, however, he "fell" to the Dark Side, ensuring that Palpatine would have control over him as Palpatine provided his only avenue towards the power he now needs.

    The Jedi also weren't emotionless robots. We see them in the prequels: they advocate compassion, they show humor, etc. Nevertheless, it's pretty clear that their philosophy has been warped by millennia of complacency and turned into something hypocritical.

    Like some people argued in the /r/MawInstallation thread I linked above, I feel that Sith philosophy definitely works for non-Force users, but it is highly dangerous for Force users. There's nothing truly evil about the Dark Side, but, much like a drug, it seems to be highly seductive in the way it behaves. Also like a drug, it becomes much more difficult to not destroy your life and others' when you're harnessing its power to greater heights.

    Shit, I just spent an hour writing this up. I really need to start doing some work.
    2 people like this post: Gerrick, Laurentus
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    Vice Chancellor of the Landsraad: 26 May 2021 - 15 September 2022
    Arena Game 8 Host: 10 June 2021 - 19 July 2021
    June 2021 Wintreath's Finest: 5 July 2021
    Regional Stability Squad: 28 February 2023 - present
    Minecraft Server Admin: 8 March 2023 - present

    Aura Hyperia/New Hyperion:
    Plebeian: 16 April 2014 - 21 July 2014
    Patrician: 21 July 2014 - present
    Adeptus Mechanicus: 24 October 2014 - 16 November 2014
    Co-founder of New Hyperion: 29 October 2014 - present
    Lord of Propaganda: 16 November 2014 - present
    Mapmaker for Official Region RP: 27 November 2015 - present
    WACom Delegate: 11 November 2017 - present
    Other positions: Hyperian Guardsman, Hyperian Marine (Rank: Scout)
    taulover
    • Seeker of Knowledge
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