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Why do we allow current Jarls to hold office in the Underhusen?

I know this might provoke some controversy especially since I'm new here but here's my reasoning:
Jarls are already a pretty high governmental position. Currently we have two current Jarls serving in the Underhusen. Does it make sense to keep allowing this? Shouldn't the Underhusen be for newer people trying to enter the government rather than people who are already in high positions in the government gain more influence and position in the government?

I just see this as clogging up governmental positions for people who are already in the system and not beneficial to those trying to get into the system.

This has been brought up before and I will respond the same way that I always have: "Let the voters decide.". If they decide to not elect Jarls then that's the wish. Further if you looked at the election results topic and looked at it (the side bar has yet to be updated), this entire session has only Riksrad members serving in the Underhusen, with the only Non-Jarl being Laurentus (whom is a thane).

Further the Underhusen isn't meant to get new people into Wintreath, in fact it's the most interesting post because of the fact that it requires a LOT of activity to do. Further people are elected to the UH partially on popularity and partially on their abilities in the current and past Underhusen. Further Wintreath just isn't a political region really. Sure we do have internal politics but the main draw is our community.

Also it's not like the rest of the Government, in which one is appointed, it's elected. New people have about the same ability to get in as Jarls and thanes. Hell the Storting positition requires the most knowledge because of the fact that you have to be familiar with writing the laws, with the political system Wintreath employs, with the laws that are currently in effect, and the reasoning for the laws. Besides last term there was someone brand new to the region, Aragonn. We had a new-comer, Hugsim, nearly elected with all but one vote (which was his own).

Edit: Also it's a lot easier to enter the Government through other positions, like through the Ministries, than through the Storting.

Edit 2: accidentally said Point Breeze was the thane when Laurentus was.

Well we actually have 4 current Jarls serving in the Underhusen, and 1 thane Laurentus... In fact the entire new UH is in the Riksråd. Though I see the confusion as the elections just finished.

I see where you are coming from, I understand the concerns . But I will say that I think the best people for the job should have the positions in the Underhusen, those who will do the best. Unlike Jarls and the Overhusen who are selected by the monarchy the Underhusen is selected by the citizenry via democracy and we hope will do the best job. So with that being said doesn't it make sense that if the majority of citizens believe that a Jarl or several Jarls would be best as Skrifa, shouldn't it be allowed?

This is just how it seems to me, I am sure the topic is up for much debate!

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Further the Underhusen isn't meant to get new people into Wintreath...

I'm not necessarily saying new people to Wintreath, but new to the government.

New people have about the same ability to get in as Jarls and thanes.

That is not true simply because Jarls and Thanes have influence and popularity over someone who's fairly unknown.

link=topic=2653.msg42717#msg42717 date=1439419610]
Further the Underhusen isn't meant to get new people into Wintreath...

I'm not necessarily saying new people to Wintreath, but new to the government.

New people have about the same ability to get in as Jarls and thanes.

That is not true simply because Jarls and Thanes have influence and popularity over someone who's fairly unknown.

This isn't necessarily true.

Jarls are appointed because of the amount of effort they put into the forums.  Rarely these days has anyone been appointed for anything less than putting 110% effort into anything, and that goes for activity as well.

The UH elections are still completely democratic.  This last election, for example, had a good number of candidates both in the Riksrad and not.  The ones voted for are some of the most active members on Wintreath.  Chanku may be the Jarl of Defense, for example, but he's also very adept at writing bills.  Laurentus may be the Thane of FA, but he's very adept with law and is very excellent with legislature.  Hannah and Point Breeze may also be Jarls, but they're also insanely active members who put a lot of effort into the region.

And likewise, I may also be a Jarl, but everyone here knows how much I care about the region and how much effort I put into what I do.

Look at it this way: Wintreath legislature is essentially like Theater.  You'll get all sorts auditioning for a play, but who is most likely going to get the part?  The experienced actor that has worked with that director before.  Does that mean new actors don't stand a chance?  Of course not.  If the new actor puts in a hell of an audition that makes everyone turn their heads to see, then it's highly likely he'll get a call back and then the role.

Elections are the same.  People will almost always vote for the familiar face that they've seen before over the unknown.  Even if it wasn't Jarls that were elected, it'd still be members that have been on the UH before, because they're candidates that the people know their work ethic already.

Each person who was elected this term isn't just a Jarl, but they're also all people that have been in the UH in the past...and fairly recently as well (Chanku from several terms, Laurentus from the last two, Hannah from the last, and Point Breeze and myself from the term before last). So people have an idea of how we work, which can always be either a good or bad thing depending on how we were in that term.  But it was deemed that we did at least a semi-decent enough job to warrant being re-elected.

However, I'll never say that new members will never have a chance to be elected, as that's quite untrue.  HannahB, for example, while being a Jarl, is still relatively new to Wintreath, and she was voted into the UH for a second time, the first being in July, two months after joining.  If new members campaign and campaign well, they have just as much a chance to be elected as anyone else, so it's not impossible at all for new members.  They just have to show that they'd be a good person to have in the UH, much like every other candidate has to do.

And like always, new members are always encouraged to take part in our elections.  This time, we had no new members even run (the newest being 2 months old).  If you have an interest in our small, but still existing political side, it's always greatly encouraged, and even asking for help in building your campaign is alright as well.  Just because you're a new person doesn't mean you won't get elected, nor does it mean you have to do it alone.  Almost anyone here is happy to help new members get into the groove of elections and campaigning if you have the interest.

The UH elections are still completely democratic.  This last election, for example, had a good number of candidates both in the Riksrad and not.  The ones voted for are some of the most active members on Wintreath.  Chanku may be the Jarl of Defense, for example, but he's also very adept at writing bills.  Laurentus may be the Thane of FA, but he's very adept with law and is very excellent with legislature.  Hannah and Point Breeze may also be Jarls, but they're also insanely active members who put a lot of effort into the region.

Not doubting any of that, but what I am saying is, is it helpful for the region to have the same people on multiple different platforms serving positions? Does seeing the same people not clog the system?

Wintreath legislature is essentially like Theater.  You'll get all sorts auditioning for a play, but who is most likely going to get the part?  The experienced actor that has worked with that director before.  Does that mean new actors don't stand a chance?  Of course not.  If the new actor puts in a hell of an audition that makes everyone turn their heads to see, then it's highly likely he'll get a call back and then the role.

Actor and play are separate. It doesn't necessarily fill what is going on here. It would be like saying a really good actor should have multiple roles in the same play. IF they're good why shouldn't they have multiple roles over someone who's new or isn't as experienced? That's what the situation is.

People will almost always vote for the familiar face that they've seen before over the unknown.  Even if it wasn't Jarls that were elected, it'd still be members that have been on the UH before, because they're candidates that the people know their work ethic already.

This is entirely different. People who serve one position per term, even if it's repeated, is different than someone having multiple positions per term. If someone wants to run for UH again, fine then let them. Just not UH and another position.

Also just pointing out, people can get involved with the UH even if they aren't in it. Look at last session, I was rather involved even though I wasn't even IN the session. So being elected isn't a zero-sum game.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "clog up the system."  The Riksråd and Storting handle vastly different areas of government and there is very little, if any, overlap between the two.

If you're worried that activity in our individual ministries will suffer because of our UH obligations, then I must admit that this is a possibility - its even a reasonable assumption to make. However, and I'm speaking subjectively here, I haven't noticed such a phenomenon in my year and a few months here. I submit that had this ever been a significant issue, we would have some sort of ineligibility law, but that's just not the case.

I'm glad you brought this up, and I would invite you to monitor the government for the next two months and see for yourself how this impacts the Riksråd.

@Chanku, not everyone has a standing invitation to speak to the UH

The UH elections are still completely democratic.  This last election, for example, had a good number of candidates both in the Riksrad and not.  The ones voted for are some of the most active members on Wintreath.  Chanku may be the Jarl of Defense, for example, but he's also very adept at writing bills.  Laurentus may be the Thane of FA, but he's very adept with law and is very excellent with legislature.  Hannah and Point Breeze may also be Jarls, but they're also insanely active members who put a lot of effort into the region.

Not doubting any of that, but what I am saying is, is it helpful for the region to have the same people on multiple different platforms serving positions? Does seeing the same people not clog the system?

Again, no.  Because for one, as I said, EVERYONE who joins is encouraged to take part in elections if they have the desire.  And again, it just goes for the will of the people.  If the majority who voted in the last election didn't want to see the same people in multiple positions, then we wouldn't have been voted for, and we'd have a perfect 5 candidates who have absolutely no other affiliations with our government. 

However, that's not the case.  The people decided that they wanted to see us in the UH regardless of us being in the Riksrad.  If the people are wanting experienced people they know about already, regardless of other affiliations, should we really say "No, sorry, they're not allowed to run because they're in the Riksrad and it'd clog the system," ?  That'd take away from the actual democratic process since we'd be denying them the chance to vote for who they'd actually think was the most appropriate for the job.  If we get more candidates that want to take part, then that's awesome.  The more people wanting to take part, the merrier, and the less likely people would be to vote for us because they'll want to see fresher faces in the government...which is something I'm always on board with.

But again, with that not being the case, it is what it is.  I'm not going to support any law regulating what people can take part in aside from keeping current OH members out of the UH (which is never going to happen).  Jarls are appointed positions, and that shouldn't deny them being in the UH if that's what the people want.

Wintreath legislature is essentially like Theater.  You'll get all sorts auditioning for a play, but who is most likely going to get the part?  The experienced actor that has worked with that director before.  Does that mean new actors don't stand a chance?  Of course not.  If the new actor puts in a hell of an audition that makes everyone turn their heads to see, then it's highly likely he'll get a call back and then the role.

Actor and play are separate. It doesn't necessarily fill what is going on here. It would be like saying a really good actor should have multiple roles in the same play. IF they're good why shouldn't they have multiple roles over someone who's new or isn't as experienced? That's what the situation is.

Again, this is not necessarily true.  In plays, it's completely unsurprising to, see, say the Choreographer also have one of the lead roles, or even to see the director themselves have a lead role.  Just because some people consider them to be separate things doesn't mean they are (and I will say it's also NOT unheard of to see actors with multiple parts in a play, it actually happens quite often).  Technically Jarls and the UH are separate, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get the chance to run for a UH spot.  The only reason they shouldn't is if they're in the OH...which that's when it'd go into being unfair since they're in both branches of legislature.

People will almost always vote for the familiar face that they've seen before over the unknown.  Even if it wasn't Jarls that were elected, it'd still be members that have been on the UH before, because they're candidates that the people know their work ethic already.

This is entirely different. People who serve one position per term, even if it's repeated, is different than someone having multiple positions per term. If someone wants to run for UH again, fine then let them. Just not UH and another position.

It's not different at all.  You're just seeing it this way to make a point.  If someone wants to take on a second job on here, why should that be denied to them?  People have seen all of the current UH in those positions before, they've seen us in our Jarl duties, and they've seen us on the forums when we're not partaking in either.  The term before last, three of us that were elected ended up making one of the most active terms of the UH since I joined here, and we got a lot of shit done.  One of the members has been insanely active since her 4 month start date, and was appointed VERY recently into being our Jarl of Information because of how much she puts into the region.  And the other, as I said, is very adept with making laws, puts effort into keeping our military going despite the challenges of it, and is one of our more outspoken members on issues.

And you're going to say that none of us who would make a powerhouse of the UH by putting our efforts together should be allowed to take part simply because we're Jarls?

What's next? Are you going to say that Nobility shouldn't be allowed either because they've been elevated to a rank above the regular citizens?

I apologize if I'm coming across in a less than nice way, but I actually take a bit of offense to this argument.  If someone is putting a strong effort into the region and wants to do so in another way as well, then denying them the chance to do so simply because it "clogs the system" is completely unheard of.  As I said before, ANYONE who wants to take part in elections should be allowed to do so, and denying anyone the right takes away from our democratic nature, regardless if they're a Jarl, a former OH member, a Count/Countess/Duke/Archduke/The Prince/Princess, or a citizen.

@Chanku, not everyone has a standing invitation to speak to the UH

I think he means in the sense that we pushed for in our term, Point Breeze.  Meaning posting actively in the Citizen's platform and discussing current and past bills, and proposing new ones for the UH to look at.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "clog up the system."  The Riksråd and Storting handle vastly different areas of government and there is very little, if any, overlap between the two.

If you're worried that activity in our individual ministries will suffer because of our UH obligations, then I must admit that this is a possibility - its even a reasonable assumption to make. However, and I'm speaking subjectively here, I haven't noticed such a phenomenon in my year and a few months here. I submit that had this ever been a significant issue, we would have some sort of ineligibility law, but that's just not the case.

I'm glad you brought this up, and I would invite you to monitor the government for the next two months and see for yourself how this impacts the Riksråd.

Chanku, not everyone has a standing invitation to speak to the UH

@Point Breeze
I actually didn't do much in the UH last term, a lot of what I said was in the Citizen's Platform. I did comment here and there within the UH. however I mainly participated in the Citizen's Platform.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "clog up the system."  The Riksråd and Storting handle vastly different areas of government and there is very little, if any, overlap between the two.

If you're worried that activity in our individual ministries will suffer because of our UH obligations, then I must admit that this is a possibility - its even a reasonable assumption to make. However, and I'm speaking subjectively here, I haven't noticed such a phenomenon in my year and a few months here. I submit that had this ever been a significant issue, we would have some sort of ineligibility law, but that's just not the case.

I'm glad you brought this up, and I would invite you to monitor the government for the next two months and see for yourself how this impacts the Riksråd.

@Chanku, not everyone has a standing invitation to speak to the UH

That is one point but what I mean by clogging up the system is we have quite a few positions in the government and having the same select people filling up all these positions clogs it with the same people doing many different jobs when they could go to newer active people.

For instance, we had 11 people nominated for 5 positions.
4 of those are Jarls and 1 of which is a Thane. Beating 6 non-Jarls and Thanes.
How does that seem right?

I'm curious as to what you mean by "clog up the system."  The Riksråd and Storting handle vastly different areas of government and there is very little, if any, overlap between the two.

If you're worried that activity in our individual ministries will suffer because of our UH obligations, then I must admit that this is a possibility - its even a reasonable assumption to make. However, and I'm speaking subjectively here, I haven't noticed such a phenomenon in my year and a few months here. I submit that had this ever been a significant issue, we would have some sort of ineligibility law, but that's just not the case.

I'm glad you brought this up, and I would invite you to monitor the government for the next two months and see for yourself how this impacts the Riksråd.

@Chanku, not everyone has a standing invitation to speak to the UH

For instance, we had 11 people nominated for 5 positions.
4 of those are Jarls and 1 of which is a Thane. Beating 6 non-Jarls and Thanes.
How does that seem right?

Campaigning.

One of those six people is a member many still don't get along with, and his campaign was considered one of the more controversial.

Two of those six people posted short campaigns that apparently made little impact.

Two of those six people didn't even campaign.

And the other posted an interesting campaign, but again it apparently didn't make much impact on the voters.  It happens.

Now look at those who were elected.

Three of the five had lengthy campaign threads that spoke of everything they wanted to accomplish.

Two of the five had less lengthy, but still stated everything they wanted to accomplish.

One of those two even made a thread for all of the candidates to answer questions, and some of those candidates were active in asking questions to other candidates.

So in the end, even if we overlooked the fact that it was past experience and being Jarls, it still all falls down to the campaigns that made the most impact.

Again, no.  Because for one, as I said, EVERYONE who joins is encouraged to take part in elections if they have the desire.  And again, it just goes for the will of the people.  If the majority who voted in the last election didn't want to see the same people in multiple positions, then we wouldn't have been voted for, and we'd have a perfect 5 candidates who have absolutely no other affiliations with our government.

How do you expect someone new and not in the government to compete with Jarls and thanes? 9 times out of 10 the Jarls and thanes beat the newer people. Which is why I fundamentally say it's flawed. Because the system will always be stacked for the jarls and thanes and the same people will just be elected into almost all the government positions.

If we get more candidates that want to take part, then that's awesome.  The more people wanting to take part, the merrier, and the less likely people would be to vote for us because they'll want to see fresher faces in the government...which is something I'm always on board with.

11 candidates. 4 jarls. 1 thane. 5 spots. 4 jarls and 1 thane were elected.

It's not different at all.  You're just seeing it this way to make a point.

Having one job per term and two jobs per term i s absolutely different. My objection is to people holding two major government positions in one term.

And you're going to say that none of us who would make a powerhouse of the UH by putting our efforts together should be allowed to take part simply because we're Jarls?

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying. You're already taking up a major governmental position. I don't know how active last term was, I don't know how many people were nominated and elected..etc. But what I do know is that 11 ran this time and only the jarls and thanes got in.

If someone is putting a strong effort into the region and wants to do so in another way as well, then denying them the chance to do so simply because it "clogs the system" is completely unheard of.

No it is not. In Region Inc we banned CEOs from being in legislature or director. Directors were banned from being CEOs and in legislature...etc. We did it for a reason, to keep the same people taking up multiple different governmental jobs.

Again, no.  Because for one, as I said, EVERYONE who joins is encouraged to take part in elections if they have the desire.  And again, it just goes for the will of the people.  If the majority who voted in the last election didn't want to see the same people in multiple positions, then we wouldn't have been voted for, and we'd have a perfect 5 candidates who have absolutely no other affiliations with our government.

How do you expect someone new and not in the government to compete with Jarls and thanes? 9 times out of 10 the Jarls and thanes beat the newer people. Which is why I fundamentally say it's flawed. Because the system will always be stacked for the jarls and thanes and the same people will just be elected into almost all the government positions.

If that was really the case, why would anyone campaign outside of Jarls and Thanes?  Look at the beginning of this election:  Before Laurentus, Point Breeze, and myself stepped in, we already had a good base of people despite Chanku and HannahB, two Jarls, stepping in at the beginning.  And we still had two members join in even after the other three turned around and accepted their nominations.  If people actually cared or thought they were going to automatically lose to Jarls/Thanes, then they wouldn't have accepted in the first place...not to mention you'd see people dropping out of the race because they'd feel like they had no chance.

Being as that's not the case and everyone who had accepted stayed in, a fear of losing automatically to a Jarl isn't something that's real, because everyone here aside from apparently you knows that they have a chance to win regardless of whether or not they're a citizen, jarl, or other title.

If we get more candidates that want to take part, then that's awesome.  The more people wanting to take part, the merrier, and the less likely people would be to vote for us because they'll want to see fresher faces in the government...which is something I'm always on board with.

11 candidates. 4 jarls. 1 thane. 5 spots. 4 jarls and 1 thane were elected.

Grasping at straws.  Stop it.  It makes you look bad.  It's not like the Jarls even got ALL of the votes, they just got the majority.  If you were someone that has been here for more than just recently, you'd know exactly why we got the most votes.  As you don't, please stop throwing in this argument for the sake of trying to keep us out of the UH.  It's really getting quite offensive to me now.

It's not different at all.  You're just seeing it this way to make a point.

Having one job per term and two jobs per term i s absolutely different. My objection is to people holding two major government positions in one term.

And I'm saying if they want to shoulder that burden of having a cabinet position and UH position, and can do it effectively, they should have that right.  Apparently our voters feel the same, otherwise they wouldn't have voted for us.

And you're going to say that none of us who would make a powerhouse of the UH by putting our efforts together should be allowed to take part simply because we're Jarls?

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying. You're already taking up a major governmental position. I don't know how active last term was, I don't know how many people were nominated and elected..etc. But what I do know is that 11 ran this time and only the jarls and thanes got in.

And I'm saying that what you say means little against the will of the people.  If they think we'll do a good job, then why argue against them?

If someone is putting a strong effort into the region and wants to do so in another way as well, then denying them the chance to do so simply because it "clogs the system" is completely unheard of.

No it is not. In Region Inc we banned CEOs from being in legislature or director. Directors were banned from being CEOs and in legislature...etc. We did it for a reason, to keep the same people taking up multiple different governmental jobs.

And our region is different.  Deal with it.  We're not Region Inc.  We're Wintreath.  If you don't like the way we do things, then that's your issue.