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TECHNICALLY this can still be debated as long as it is wanted here, because it only matters in the halls of the Underhusen.

TECHNICALLY this can still be debated as long as it is wanted here, because it only matters in the halls of the Underhusen.

This is true, this is more in the fact of saying that if you really want to be heard in time before the UH takes it to a vote (since they tend to vote pretty fast), then this is the best time to discuss.

No one said that it can't be debated here after the deadline though. Pengu just meant that after the deadline, voting will begin.

Edit: That's fast.

@Pengu:

In a few messageboards including TNP, the Mods and Admins all got together to discuss Govindia's citizenship, and their conversations fell along similar lines as ours.  In fact, I'd like to say that our PM is practically identical to what other regions have done as well.

TNP situation is not relevant nor does it concern things here.  This is an internal Wintreath matter.

Actually, that's not entirely accurate.  It's not relevant in the case against you, and no, I don't urge the UH and OH to use that against you in their voting...however it's still highly relevant in an overall sense.

If this was a matter of one or two regions banning you, then it could be attributed to many things: Bad behavior from you, overly-strict mods/mods with an agenda, and so on and so forth, and likewise it could be something very easily discarded.

However, this isn't the case.  The fact is that you've been banned from a list of regions, and CoS has already stated that there's a process happening to get you banned from yet another region.  And this has been going on for as early as 2007, and possibly earlier if one were to dig deep enough.

Considering this is something that has been happening for years and the list is still growing, that's when it becomes a pattern, as well as a problem.  And when things are starting to get sour here like it did in those other regions, then it only makes sense to look into them and see what happened, see if there were any distinguishing things that stood out the most that may have happened in other regions as well has here, and talk to those who once supported you in those regions only to turn completely against you at some point and ban you from the region.

It's relevant because there's obviously something happening here, and the last thing anyone wants to see is Wintreath become another piece in that possibly continuing pattern.  While Wintreath is a place for second chances and I completely agree with this philosophy, we're talking the fact that others gave you as much if not more chances to change than Wintreath has, and within just a 7 year period, something was neglected since there hasn't been practically any progress.

So yes, while talking about your time in other regions isn't relevant to the present since it's more about your actions here, it's still relevant nonetheless

Deviating from the premises of the act is highly questionable and unrelated matters should not in all fairness be discussed here. Since the act fails to mention other regions Govindia's actions elsewhere should not be held against him in this instance, and bringing them up here only serves tainting opinions and creating unnecessarily hostile atmosphere for Govindia.

This act, while it seems to put together the thoughts of many, is greatly imperfect and would definately leave a scar to our history. There are several more constructive ways this matter could still be handled.

I believe the evidence has already been presented in Pengu's Complaint against Govindia.

Issue here is that the act itself doesn't point to anything concrete which creates very difficult if not impossible position to defend. The discussion could be dragged forever by bringing up new instances should the previously presented be resolved. This may not be relevant from the perspective of our laws, but if discussing this is anything more than a mere formality, there should be honest chance of correcting the situation.

As a concerned citizen I ask the members of Underhusen what they expect from this act. Would the loss of citizenship be intended as disciplinary action or do you view it as the first step of total exclusion? As Wintermoot has pointed out, a mere loss of citizenship doesn't prevent someone from interacting with the community, which is after all the problem stated by the act.

The public deserves to know how an act to resolve an issue it by itself can't resolve is supposed to resolve the issue. It seems clear that what would happen next is critical to the purpose and necessity of this act.

Deviating from the premises of the act is highly questionable and unrelated matters should not in all fairness be discussed here. Since the act fails to mention other regions Govindia's actions elsewhere should not be held against him in this instance, and bringing them up here only serves tainting opinions and creating unnecessarily hostile atmosphere for Govindia.

This act, while it seems to put together the thoughts of many, is greatly imperfect and would definately leave a scar to our history. There are several more constructive ways this matter could still be handled.

It's not questionable.  As I stated, while his ban in other region is unrelated here and shouldn't be used against him in people's voting, it's still highly relevant if his behavior in a list of banned regions is exactly the same here.  Because it means that for as many reasons that we've given him to change and learn from experiences, he's either intentionally or unintentionally refusing to acknowledge those experiences and instead push the blame onto everyone else except himself.

As I said, at this stage, it starts to look like a pattern, and while, again, it's something I don't urge people to use against him in their voting, it's still only logical to look into his history and see if there's other patterns there that we may be missing.

As for other ways to handle this, please enlighten me.  He's gotten chat bans which have had no effect whatsoever since they still keep happening, and as I just mentioned, warning him does nothing since he's more likely to push the blame onto others rather than owning up to his own badgering.

We've got no laws, acts, or anything of the like to give someone a temporary ban, no warn system, and the court system would essentially do the same as an act but in a different setting.  But I vouched for an act because as unfair as it may seem, considering what I've heard nonstop about the state of the courts, I had always assumed that putting him in a court that was potentially unbalanced could also potentially be an unfair trial for him.

But if you have any other alternatives, I'm all ears. 

We've got no laws, acts, or anything of the like to give someone a temporary ban, no warn system, and the court system would essentially do the same as an act but in a different setting.

*sighs*
Not so;

7.3 Justices presiding over a case are free to make RECOMMENDATION verdicts that include punishments outside of those defined by this Act, subject to Monarchical approval of the recommendations.

I'll get round to correcting the other issues you all have with the Court system hopefully this evening

We've got no laws, acts, or anything of the like to give someone a temporary ban, no warn system --

What prevents the creation of new laws to better discipline citizens? Incompetence or unwillingness? Please consider your answer as the speaker of the Underhusen.

// Weissreich beat me to it.

We've got no laws, acts, or anything of the like to give someone a temporary ban, no warn system --

What prevents the creation of new laws to better discipline citizens? Incompetence or unwillingness? Please consider your answer as the speaker of the Underhusen.

// Weissreich beat me to it.

As it stands there is no such law, aside from apparently what Weiss said.  And in the case of now, the concern was going about it in the fairest way available to us.  That being said, I think a law for much lighter consequences so that it doesn't have to go to the extreme is something that very much needs to be addressed very soon so that this issue doesn't occur again, and at the same time gives a progressive cycle to build up to.

I was going to initially quote someone, but decided against it as I have had a headache after dealing with customers today for Mother's Day orders.  That and things were busy with work.

That aside, let me say this.

Skrifa Point Breeze hit the nail on the head with his statement:

What I haven't seen is anyone take the time to sit down and work with him. Whenever arguments arise, it usually blows up with the two parties harboring animosity or outright hostility and nothing improving. Nothing is usually done to correct the issue. I certainly can't put Pengu in that umbrella, since he took considerable action. A brave thing to do, but not the solution I think Wintrean virtues and customs would suggest. I'm not saying Gov is blameless in these incidents, but I also think more could be done for him.

This is an extreme punitive action, nothing that's going to be productive and rehabilitative and an attempt to help me reintegrate into the community. 

This whole issue is a misunderstanding due to a communication issue.  I had been asking throughout this thread for understanding, and more importantly, compassion.  When I first came to Pengu, and then the region for support, I was seeking support and compassion.  I am not perfect, and I have made attempts to improve, but this revocation attempt is an extreme measure and doesn't do anything than place unduly excess blame on someone and does not fix the issue.  Wintreath is based on the ideal of second chances, and it would be ironic and disappointing if my citizenship was revoked, even when taking that into account.

While the Ministry of Mediations was created to assist me, that had little effect, because it did not solve the problems I was fully having with certain people.  Then again, conflicts with Alterra are a different story, and I will not discuss that here, as it is an irrelevant and separate matter.

That aside, I never said I was blameless, nor had I said I was perfect.  I admit when I am wrong.  I have mentioned before that I can understand things better when things are directly communicated to, and directly explained to me.  If I am doing something wrong and I am not realising it, please take me aside and explain to me CONSTRUCTIVELY how I am doing something wrong, and then explain what I can do to correct it.  Direct communication works best with me, and I ask you all to please be PATIENT and UNDERSTANDING.  I do care about this community and I wish to still contribute to this region as a citizen.  I know people may not get along with me, but I have not violated any major laws here, and that does not mean revoking my citizenship just because someone does not like me or is irritated by me.

I did not intend to pester anyone, and I apologise for that.  I came to someone I thought would listen, and they did not. 

That aside, I do have feelings too, and I hope that my feelings still matter, and I still am cared about.

Thank you for your time.

Well, if it makes you feel better Gov, after talking to Tatte about it a bit and coming up with a different idea (hence my previous post you disliked ), I decided to back out of pushing the Revocation.

While at times you do have a tendency to get on my or others' nerves when you press, it really is highly unfair to jump at the idea of revoking your citizenship completely, at least without the proper build up to it first.  Regardless of personal feelings, you're still a citizen nonetheless and as such you do deserve at least a proper cycle rather than a swift kick.

If this bill goes through to the OH, then I'll hope that it doesn't come into law, because throughout this whole thing I've only wanted to do this in the way that was the most fair to you, and I do realize that perhaps I jumped the gun insanely early on pushing towards this and considering it the fairer of the two choices (rather than sitting down and coming up with an even better 3rd choice).

So if this bill does fail (or does pass, which I'll actually hope it doesn't), I plan on discussing with the UH/OH and Wintermoot about creating an actual system outside of the courts to have a more progressive cycle.  That way we don't have to rely on the courts for every little thing even when Weiss perfects the system (since courts should only be invoked for highly serious matters), and also so that we can extend beyond just giving warnings and letting things slide...and as I said in the UH, provide a system that does give consequences for if you (not you specifically, just the outward you) do something negative enough to warrant it, and have it progress if it continues...but at the same time reward you by having it go down if you redeem yourself.

Which essentially to me is the most fair we can get.  That way it's something that's not absolute until you've reached the point to where that's the only alternative...but again, at the same time, it's actually doing something other than giving a slap on the wrist.

Since it's now obvious that this Act isn't going to pass and I won't have to hear an appeal, I'm going to post how I feel about you, this situation, and others like it.

In the time that you've been here, I've seen you do good things...you've been very caring for your pets, you've bought gifts for people when you had no money for yourself, you've been one of the most active people in the Hvitt Riddaral, and you've been a major poster. After a year and a half of interactions with you, I don't believe the more disturbing claims people have about you in regards to sexual harassment and cyberstalking. I think overall you're a good person and I don't think you have malicious intent when you pester people, which I would say is the reason you're still here. It would be easy to be done with you if you were malicious, but it's difficult to take action against someone that doesn't seem to know better, even when he should know better after repeating the same pattern throughout NS for years.

Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that your behaviour drives people up the wall...you expect people to follow your norms and standards, and when they don't, like when they don't respond to you, you begin to hound them until they're forced to follow your norms or lash out, which just pisses them off. As I said when all this started, if people aren't replying to you it's because they're either busy and can't reply to you or don't want to reply to you, and pestering them isn't going to change either of those things. Contacting someone about something once in private or over Zaphyr (if they aren't online) is enough...anything more than that comes off as harassment and understandably pisses people off. Once you've contacted them, if they want to talk to you about it they will eventually reply...and if they don't want to talk about it with you, there's nothing you can do about it...you need to let it go.

That means you're not sending 100 queries, you're not contacting people on IRC AND Skype AND Facebook, you're not contacting people about things that happened months or years ago (this seems to be your problem with people outside Wintreath), and you're not sending messages through bots to get around people putting you on ignore. That means that if someone asks you not to contact them or to stop sending you messages about something or to leave them alone, you do as they ask. I don't know what that is in your book, but to the rest of the world, that's respectable behaviour.

More than anything, that is what you need to learn and understand, because from what I've seen that behaviour is the majority of the reason that people come to not like you. You come off as a bugaboo that tries to force the things you want to talk about on people without regard for their feelings or wishes, and it comes off as disrespectful and irritating, and quote honestly just makes people NOT want to respond to you in the hopes that you'll go away. I promise, just leaving it with one message will have better results for getting people to talk to you AND getting people to like you and enjoy being around you.

I'll echo this as well.  One of the most difficult things about doing this was the fact that  despite everything Gov, I have been trying really hard to push beyond my frustrations towards you and continue to like you as a member since you do a lot of good on here, and in many times that you talk about something depressing, I do feel bad for you.

But like Wintermoot said, it's the excessive force you resort to to get other people to understand/talk to you when they refuse.  When you were bothering Bootsie and talking to me about why he was refusing to talk to you, I told you that he probably felt that it was more respectful to ignore you than to say what was on his mind at the moment, which was exactly the reason he gave.  When someone is not wanting to talk to you, it's about letting it go and moving on.

And the problem that I and others have had with this is not only do you not ever let it go, but you have a problem not understanding their side of the whole equation.  If someone chooses to not talk to you or does respond to you in a way you don't agree with, it's their fault, it's because of them that things went the way they did, if they responded differently it wouldn't have turned out like that, and they should have known better, and they were being disrespectful and not regarding your feelings.  It's the constant blaming and pointing fingers rather than realizing what you're doing and learning from it that causes people to grit their teeth and say negative things to you.

Many times when people choose not to respond, it's because (as I said earlier in regards to Bootsie), they're choosing the better of the two being presented to them: ignore you and not let a negative word be said, or attempt to respond to you and most likely say something negative.  In a sense, they're regarding your feelings because they don't want to get upset at you.  Hell, you saw my responses to you in IRC, and that's what I try to avoid in my ignoring of you.  I get incredibly pissed off when you bother me in that degree, and I would much rather just ignore it completely rather than lash out.

But when you continuously go at someone, it's like backing a dog in a corner: sooner or later, they're going to retaliate against you.

So while I hope this act doesn't pass so that we can work around a better alternative...I really do hope this is a wakeup call for you.  I understand (and yes, I do actually understand) that you have feelings and sometimes you want people to feel for you.  But the fact that this is a revocation that garnered support and actually made it to voting in the UH (and I only wrote the bill, I didn't start the pre-UH/Platform discussion or introduce it into the UH, and even gave them a chance to decide to toss it before it even hit the UH/platform) should tell you that your behavior has rubbed many members outside of myself the wrong way.

You still have people that are pushing for you and are still being a voice in your corner.  As Mooty pointed out, you do have good qualities which is why people are still sticking up for you regardless of how you can be.  I only ask that you please do yourself a favor and don't make them regret sticking up for you.

The OH is free to discuss things here too, but now that it's out of UH hands, I'm not going to say any more on the matter, other than when being referred to directly.