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1) This Act shall be cited as Revocation of Govindia’s Citizenship.

Call for Govindia’s removal from Wintreath
        The Storting recognizes that Citizen Govindia has contributed to the region by actively taking part in elections and showing interest in our political system.

        Unfortunately, throughout his time in Wintreath, Govindia has persistently disturbed Citizens of Wintreath both in and out of the forums. This is evident in his constant harassment of Citizens in threads, PMs and the IRC chat for what he claims to be “disrespectful” to him. Despite polite requests to cease such behaviour, Govindia continues to bait others into starting arguments and flame anyone who disagrees with him despite the fact that he is often the one who starts the conflict by calling out people who he deems to be verbally attacking him when they are not. In this regard, the Storting acknowledges that Govindia has been previously banned from the IRC chat several times for such behaviour. 

        The Storting strongly believes that such behaviour, if remained unchecked, is detrimental to the community as a whole and compromises the very values that Wintreath stands for. It is also recognized that Govindia has been given a considerable number of chances to learn from past mistakes and that he has either willingly or unwilling failed to do so. As a result, the Storting hereby revokes the citizenship of Govindia.

Skrifa may vote AYE, NAY, or may choose to ABSTAIN.

Aye.

I've given this quite some thought, and rather than abstaining from voting, I'm going to vote Nay on this revocation.

You might be wondering why I'm doing this, especially since I authored this bill.

Throughout this whole thing, I wanted to make sure that this was going to be the fairest process possible, since our only two options at the time were this, or a court system that I had assumed was far more unbalanced (and thus potentially unfair) than it apparently was.  However, despite my personal feelings towards Govindia, a Revocation is still a bit extreme considering he's only gotten verbal warnings and chat bans in the past.  But considering it was either A or B or just letting it slide some more, this seemed like the fairest option since it would have to pass the UH and OH unless the supermajority thingy, and it'd still give Gov time to appeal during discussion.

However, the Act alone already exposed problems with other parts of our legislature (the necessity of discussion for appeals for individuals, as well as the definition of expediting issues), and there was a much better alternative to be proposed that I would like to instead explore which would still give consequences, but they'd be much lighter and just get potentially worse if the issue continued...and likewise lighten up a bit if there was progress.  In other words, it'd give a person a chance to redeem themselves before being sentenced to losing their citizenship, or give them consequences to push them further towards it without taking it away right then and there with no build up if they choose to continue.

This alternative is by far the most fair option that I think needs to be explored, and what better person to dive into this and give a chance to explore this on than the one we're getting ready to vote to revoke citizenship from?

Of course, this would require getting with Wintermoot and talking about it and helping with setting up a system, since a warning system would require his technical side for the messageboard.

But anyways, that's my two cents on this.  I want to keep this absolutely fair, and since other ideas have appeared, this revocation doesn't seem like it'd be that route.

I would have appreciated you saying this during the debate period... Woulda been far more useful there.
I respond by pointing out that losing your citizenship isn't actually a huge punishment. Mostly its iconic. He would still be allowed in a great deal of areas in the forum and he would not be required to leave the region or the IRC channel, where he hangs out the most.

I've had serious reservations about this whole thing since Pengu first posted the complaint in the Platform. I understand the harm that Gov has caused many people here and how damn annoying he can be, but I've also seen unnecessary provocations, short tempers, and a tendency to dismiss things he says because "its just fucking Gov." (Not a direct quote, just summarizing the attitude I've observed)  What I haven't seen is anyone take the time to sit down and work with him. Whenever arguments arise, it usually blows up with the two parties harboring animosity or outright hostility and nothing improving. Nothing is usually done to correct the issue. I certainly can't put Pengu in that umbrella, since he took considerable action. A brave thing to do, but not the solution I think Wintrean virtues and customs would suggest. I'm not saying Gov is blameless in these incidents, but I also think more could be done for him.

For that reason, and since the person bringing the complaint no longer supports it, I'll be voting Nay.

What I haven't seen is anyone take the time to sit down and work with him. Whenever arguments arise, it usually blows up with the two parties harboring animosity or outright hostility and nothing improving. Nothing is usually done to correct the issue.

While remaining impartial, I wanted to point out that this is not true...while it existed, the Ministry of Mediations was exclusively used to attempt to resolve issues between Gov and other people until the Jarl of the Ministry, Daylen Phoenix, had had enough. At that point the ministry was dissolved and stricter IRC rules and systems were put in place, resulting in the temp bans that Gov received afterwards. In my opinion, we have attempted to do much to correct the issues, our efforts have just never been particularly successful.

I would have appreciated you saying this during the debate period... Woulda been far more useful there.
I respond by pointing out that losing your citizenship isn't actually a huge punishment. Mostly its iconic. He would still be allowed in a great deal of areas in the forum and he would not be required to leave the region or the IRC channel, where he hangs out the most.

Yes, but you realize most of the time that proposal was talked about was between last night and this morning, and I literally just got off of work. 

What I haven't seen is anyone take the time to sit down and work with him. Whenever arguments arise, it usually blows up with the two parties harboring animosity or outright hostility and nothing improving. Nothing is usually done to correct the issue.

While remaining impartial, I wanted to point out that this is not true...while it existed, the Ministry of Mediations was exclusively used to attempt to resolve issues between Gov and other people until the Jarl of the Ministry, Daylen Phoenix, had had enough. At that point the ministry was dissolved and stricter IRC rules and systems were put in place, resulting in the temp bans that Gov received afterwards. In my opinion, we have attempted to do much to correct the issues, our efforts have just never been particularly successful.

Hmm. I see. I think I came around at the tail end of that era, so I was unaware.

I just didn't want anyone to get the impression that we had just abandoned Gov or anyone else in the region to the wolves in some way. I know Daylen really tried to get through on the issues Gov was having, and I've had a lot of not so fun discussions and arguments with people outside the region in order to protect Gov's rights as a Citizen of this region and member of the Hvitt Riddaral. I feel as a region we've really gone to bat for Gov, and whether people feel it was worth it or not in hindsight is their own choice, but that's the level of protection and support we would give to any Citizen, I would hope.

Anyways...to get this back on topic, we're just waiting on votes from @Laurentus and @Sapphiron.

It was never my intention to push for a persona non grata declaration after this. Mostly, I agree with what Reon is saying about this not truly meaning anything beyond an iconic stand.

In many ways, getting his citizenship revoked is the clearest message we can send that he needs to stop his behaviour.

God help me, but I'd even be willing to act as a middleman between Gov and any issues that arise between him and others in the region, and try to show him how to handle disputes properly.

And if Wintermoot then decides to reinstate Gov's citizenship, I'd be perfectly fine with it.

So I vote Aye.

Alright, that just leaves @Sapphiron to cast the final vote, as well as be everyone's favorite role: The tie breaker. 

I say we throw him out a window if he abstains.

My stance is this, I recognize that Govindia deserves punishment but I also acknowledge that stripping him off his citizenship is bringing it a bit too far.

Pengu, whoever said that I was going to break the tie?

I vote Abstain.

... And I am impressed, Laurentus. However, I do believe that it's stated in the laws that when there is a draw, the proposal will still proceed to the Overhusen.

You are correct about that one, actually.  In the process of a tie, it still goes to the OH for them to make the decision.

So the result stands at 2-2-1-0, with 2 Nays, 2 Ayes, and 1 abstain, leaving this at a tie.  This will proceed to the OH for them to make the executive decision.