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This Is Not Okay
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Svipjoth
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  • For context, this message: https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=8003.msg172381#msg172381

    Just to make it abundantly clear before I say anything, I do not have any issues or problems with the furry community as a whole. I respect their right to their self expression and freedom of identity. 

    That being said, I discovered this post (linked above) earlier today and it has not sat right with me at all. When online trolling against furries is compared to the actual, in real life discrimination against the LGBTQ+ communities and Muslims, I start to have a serious problem with that. Gay people are being killed in the middle east, women's hijabs are being ripped off in the west, and Asians are being beaten because of COVID fueled racism. I'm sorry, but furries are facing nowhere near the same level of discrimination as these religious and sexuality groups are.

    This comparison being made is not okay and honestly insulting. 
    5 people like this post: Holy Spire, Chanku, TGN, taulover, Waggleton
    Svipjoth
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    Waggleton
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  • Thank you, I'm happy some said something, this rubbed me the wrong way too and I thought something needed to be said. I hope they apologize or at the bare minimum reply to the thread, cause ik they can see this thread.
    3 people like this post: Holy Spire, Svipjoth, TGN
    Today's post is sponsored by Raid Shadow Legends, one of the biggest mobile role-playing games of 2019 and it's totally free! Currently almost 10 million users have joined Raid over the last six months, and it's one of the most impressive games in its class with detailed models, environments and smooth 60 frames per second animations! All the champions in the game can be customized with unique gear that changes your strategic buffs and abilities! The dungeon bosses have some ridiculous skills of their own and figuring out the perfect party and strategy to overtake them's a lot of fun! Currently with over 300,000 reviews, Raid has almost a perfect score on the Play Store! The community is growing fast and the highly anticipated new faction wars feature is now live, you might even find my squad out there in the arena! It's easier to start now than ever with rates program for new players you get a new daily login reward for the first 90 days that you play in the game! So what are you waiting for? Go to the post description, click on the special links and you'll get 50,000 silver and a free epic champion as part of the new player program to start your journey! Good luck and I'll see you there!
    Waggleton
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    Holy Spire
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  • Thank you, I'm happy some said something, this rubbed me the wrong way too and I thought something needed to be said. I hope they apologize or at the bare minimum reply to the thread, cause ik they can see this thread.
    Its quite optimistic of you to expect them to answer, some ppl dont have to courage to admit they're wrong.
    3 people like this post: Svipjoth, Waggleton, TGN
    Holy Spire
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    Wintermoot
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  • I'm just going to say this because I think it needs to be said...everybody that's involved in this topic is awesome. Everyone that's involved, whatever their opinion, has made their mark on this community, has been a good friend to others here (including me), and is somebody that I'm glad is here with us in Wintreath. I think the world of all of you. :)

    I just say that because, and maybe it won't even apply here and I hope it won't, but we've had things happen in the past where people had different opinions that offended each other, and they started thinking less of each other and villainizing each other in private spaces, and that led to a lot of strife and conflict that most of the people involved regretted by the end of it. And I'll be honest, even I haven't been immune to that in the past, so I'm saying it as much to myself as anybody else. And maybe it won't even apply here, but I hope that we'll all keep in mind that we're really all friends. It'd be a shame if that changed because people had a different opinion or take on something.

    And I hope we can all agree that discrimination in general is bad and should be fought against, because that's one of the pillars of our community that both Wintreath and the furry club were founded on. We can and should fight back against hate and discrimination against any group that doesn't advocate for hate and discrimination itself. At the end of it, we should all be free to be who we are without fear, and that more than anything is what Wintreath stands for.



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    Svipjoth
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  • I'm just going to say this because I think it needs to be said...everybody that's involved in this topic is awesome. Everyone that's involved, whatever their opinion, has made their mark on this community, has been a good friend to others here (including me), and is somebody that I'm glad is here with us in Wintreath. I think the world of all of you. :)

    I just say that because, and maybe it won't even apply here and I hope it won't, but we've had things happen in the past where people had different opinions that offended each other, and they started thinking less of each other and villainizing each other in private spaces, and that led to a lot of strife and conflict that most of the people involved regretted by the end of it. And I'll be honest, even I haven't been immune to that in the past, so I'm saying it as much to myself as anybody else. And maybe it won't even apply here, but I hope that we'll all keep in mind that we're really all friends. It'd be a shame if that changed because people had a different opinion or take on something.

    And I hope we can all agree that discrimination in general is bad and should be fought against, because that's one of the pillars of our community that both Wintreath and the furry club were founded on. We can and should fight back against hate and discrimination against any group that doesn't advocate for hate and discrimination itself. At the end of it, we should all be free to be who we are without fear, and that more than anything is what Wintreath stands for.
    What part of comparing furry discrimination to 9/11 is not worth even directly addressing? Are you not even going to acknowledge it? I wanted an apology for an offensive statement, not some vague roundabout words that ultimately solve nothing. 
    2 people like this post: Holy Spire, Waggleton
    Svipjoth
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    Waggleton
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  • It'd be a shame if that changed because people had a different opinion or take on something.
    We're still friends, but that doesn't mean we're not gonna call people out if they say something dumb. That's what good friend do.
    4 people like this post: taulover, Svipjoth, Gausburg, Holy Spire
    Today's post is sponsored by Raid Shadow Legends, one of the biggest mobile role-playing games of 2019 and it's totally free! Currently almost 10 million users have joined Raid over the last six months, and it's one of the most impressive games in its class with detailed models, environments and smooth 60 frames per second animations! All the champions in the game can be customized with unique gear that changes your strategic buffs and abilities! The dungeon bosses have some ridiculous skills of their own and figuring out the perfect party and strategy to overtake them's a lot of fun! Currently with over 300,000 reviews, Raid has almost a perfect score on the Play Store! The community is growing fast and the highly anticipated new faction wars feature is now live, you might even find my squad out there in the arena! It's easier to start now than ever with rates program for new players you get a new daily login reward for the first 90 days that you play in the game! So what are you waiting for? Go to the post description, click on the special links and you'll get 50,000 silver and a free epic champion as part of the new player program to start your journey! Good luck and I'll see you there!
    Waggleton
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    TGN
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  • I'm just going to say this because I think it needs to be said...everybody that's involved in this topic is awesome. Everyone that's involved, whatever their opinion, has made their mark on this community, has been a good friend to others here (including me), and is somebody that I'm glad is here with us in Wintreath. I think the world of all of you. :)

    I just say that because, and maybe it won't even apply here and I hope it won't, but we've had things happen in the past where people had different opinions that offended each other, and they started thinking less of each other and villainizing each other in private spaces, and that led to a lot of strife and conflict that most of the people involved regretted by the end of it. And I'll be honest, even I haven't been immune to that in the past, so I'm saying it as much to myself as anybody else. And maybe it won't even apply here, but I hope that we'll all keep in mind that we're really all friends. It'd be a shame if that changed because people had a different opinion or take on something.

    And I hope we can all agree that discrimination in general is bad and should be fought against, because that's one of the pillars of our community that both Wintreath and the furry club were founded on. We can and should fight back against hate and discrimination against any group that doesn't advocate for hate and discrimination itself. At the end of it, we should all be free to be who we are without fear, and that more than anything is what Wintreath stands for.
    What? I’m sorry, but this is just not a good response at all. You can’t say discrimination is bad after COMPARING PEOPLE WHO TROLL FURRIES ONLINE TO 9/11! And rather than actually trying to debate or fight a claim or even respond in general to someone calling out an absolute garbage take, you say “We need to fight discrimination” “We’re all friends.” And “That’s what makes Wintreath.” No, that’s not how you respond. We aren’t in elementary school, we know discrimination is bad. Just respond.
    3 people like this post: Svipjoth, Holy Spire, Waggleton
    I’m probably on NS lol
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    Drexyl Nox
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  • I just think the opinion that it isn't all that valid as discrimination because nobody died is a bad take. Also furries do get murdered a lot. Called zoophiles and reported to law enforcement for it.
    1 person likes this post: taulover
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  • The comparison may have been a little extreme but the point is valid. 
    1 person likes this post: taulover
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    Wintermoot
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  • What part of comparing furry discrimination to 9/11 is not worth even directly addressing? Are you not even going to acknowledge it? I wanted an apology for an offensive statement, not some vague roundabout words that ultimately solve nothing.
    Personally, I don't think anyone was directly comparing 9/11 to furry discrimination. Someone was expressing their opinion that furries face discrimination based on the acts of a few extremists just like other groups have. They have the right to their opinion, and you have the right to yours, and I hope at the end of it we can all agree to disagree if that's what it comes to.

    But my role as Founder is to promote and reinforce the principles and ideals of this community, which is why I posted what I did. It's not my place to apologize when somebody in Wintreath has an opinion that offends somebody else in Wintreath. It's not something I can offer and have it mean anything. Maybe an apology will be forthcoming. I don't know. But I hope you and others aren't disappointed if it's not.

    What? I’m sorry, but this is just not a good response at all. You can’t say discrimination is bad after COMPARING PEOPLE WHO TROLL FURRIES ONLINE TO 9/11! And rather than actually trying to debate or fight a claim or even respond in general to someone calling out an absolute garbage take, you say “We need to fight discrimination” “We’re all friends.” And “That’s what makes Wintreath.” No, that’s not how you respond. We aren’t in elementary school, we know discrimination is bad. Just respond.
    I have no interest in fighting people because they have an opinion, whether I agree with it or not...and beyond that, I think that it would be inappropriate for me to start doing so. Do you really want me to start policing what I think are the *right* and *wrong* opinions everytime people have a difference of opinion?

    Again, what seems to be wanted here isn't something that can come from me. All I can do is try to remind people not to let their anger get the best of them, and that when it comes to the issue of discrimination...we're really all on the same side here. Fighting it out isn't going to do anything but stir up a lot of anger and hard feelings among people who have been friends and virtual neighbors...it's not going to resolve anything here.
    1 person likes this post: taulover


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    Michi
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  • Personally, I don't think anyone was directly comparing 9/11 to furry discrimination. Someone was expressing their opinion that furries face discrimination based on the acts of a few extremists just like other groups have. They have the right to their opinion, and you have the right to yours, and I hope at the end of it we can all agree to disagree if that's what it comes to.
    This is correct, yes.  I wasn't trying to minimize the horrific nature and aftermath of 9/11 in any way whatsoever, but was using an example of how the actions of a few extremists completely warped the opinions of a particular group (in this case both Middle Eastern folks and folks who identified as Muslim) to the degree that it did...and still does today.  While, yes, I could have possibly used a better example, it felt like a perfectly valid comparison to use.  With LGBTQ+ folks, we get almost consistently labeled by Anti-LGBTQ+ folks as pedophiles or groomers because a few bad apples engaged in such horrendous acts and they became known (to which those folks are immediately disowned by the LGBTQ+ community in every way imaginable)...which absolutely resurfaced even in recent years as an alt-right talking point when those bathroom bill talks began in regards to transgender folks. Immediately trans folks were suddenly once again being labeled as nothing but child predators who could just dress up and change pronouns on a whim so they could be in the same bathroom that your kid is in. It's a gross and untrue generalization to do nothing but demonize and invalidate the trans community.

    Yes, there's absolutely much more in depth issues when it comes to LGBTQ+ discrimination, racism, and religious discrimination because they've had nothing but time since before the internet was even a thing to be allowed to grow into the colossal horrendous messes that they are.  What still happens today to folks in these communities is absolutely disgusting, horrible, shocking, and baffling to say the least that humans can act they way they do when it comes to the sheer hatred I see from folks on the levels that I see or read about in even current news.  I was absolutely floored that a large portion of people were totally okay blaming Covid on China and coming up with deragatory names for it to expel that gross propaganda for it, and the rise in hatred towards the Asian community that surfaced because some people are monumentally stupid enough to buy into that propagandic nonsense.  Hell, I'm still trying to comprehend that fact that we (well, not "we" since I didn't vote for him) even elected a president that not only condoned such things, but fueled the sentiment himself by throwing out the racist names for the virus that he did...and there's still people that think he was a fantastic president and want him back (like...I'm sorry, what?).  But it's a 100% undisputable fact that racial/gender/sexual orientation/religious discrimination are absolutely out of control to the point of legitimately frightening how far anti-folks will go to the point of killing someone or joining groups dedicated to the eradication of anyone that isn't a straight white cisgender male/female.  It's terrifying to say the absolute least and I'm absolutely not minimizing these facts in the slightest.

    However, I'd also like to ask that you not do the same to furry hatred in kind and minimize the discrimination to the community by brushing it aside as just "online trolling".  There may be some trolling (as there is for most things these days), but it's definitely evolved into legitimate hatred from folks in various communities who will constantly confuse them as folks who will do horrendous sexual things with animals (or I guess Zoophiles according to Nox).  All because some bad apples decided to do just that, it's been growing problem that more and more folks are under the belief that all furries are into bestiality of that kind no matter how much the community tries to prove otherwise.  While it may not be on the same level as the examples I used in the overall sense since it hasn't had the same amount of time and circumstances to grow into such, my point was that like those other examples all it took was a few bad folks that the community itself 100% disowns to do those horrible things...but it's completely warped enough folks' opinions on the entire community to continually earn derogatory names and remarks to folks who identify as furries, violence toward them and yes, even death to folks in the community...even if it may not be often enough or however you want to look at it to be considered on the same level as other types of larger discrimination. And it's stuff that rather than slowing down, I only see it as continuing until the spotlight will inevitably fall on it and that hatred eventually rises to similar levels as time progresses.

    But if you're looking for an apology, unfortunately all I'm going to say is that I'm sorry if you're looking into it as if I was trying to directly compare the entirety of 9/11 or entirety of LGBTQ+ discrimination to furry discrimination...because I absolutely wasn't.  I even tried making it pretty clear that I was focusing on specific examples, and even ended on this note

    Quote
    Honestly, it's all gross stuff that people try to throw out there to demonize the different communities...all because a couple of folks did stupid shit.
    to emphasize that I was purely focusing on that specific point...in which the point was that generalizing folks because of a few bad apples is gross, but sadly it's a thing that people do and have continually done in examples such as those.

    So I apologize if it didn't translate that way when you read it, but unfortunately I'm not going to apologize for having that opinion since those examples were perfectly valid comparisons to make in that instance.
    2 people like this post: Wintermoot, Aport
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    Michi
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    Svipjoth
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  • I just think the opinion that it isn't all that valid as discrimination because nobody died is a bad take. Also furries do get murdered a lot. Called zoophiles and reported to law enforcement for it.
    I never said that furry discrimination isn't valid. That was never said, at all. No one should be discriminated and all discrimination should be fought against, without argument. That being said, furries are absolutely not being murdered, lynched, or discriminated anywhere near other racial, religious, or sexualities. Countless upon countless historical and modern examples can be found of the "sexually deviant" being denied their rights and freedoms, even killed. Where are the lynchings of furries? Because I haven't found anything about a furry being murdered, let alone a group lynched. In fact, the only thing I did find was the murder of two furries and another by two other furries (source).

    Don't even get me started with zoophiles; Unfortunately, zoophiles have existed and continue to exist in the furry community: SnakeThing, Sephius Rivendare, Kero the Wolf, Sangie... I could go on and on. These people sexually assault animals and that is despicable beyond words or description. The general average furry also don't deserve to be associated with these scumbags, nor be falsely reported. These scumbags, however, are rightfully recognized for their crimes and are incarcerated. Some of them are even free! This privilege cannot be given for so many of the racially profiled that have been wrongfully imprisoned or killed, such as George Floyd and Tyre Nichols. The 40 minute footage of a black man being beaten to death by the police speaks for itself. So this isn't even a fair comparison either.

    What part of comparing furry discrimination to 9/11 is not worth even directly addressing? Are you not even going to acknowledge it? I wanted an apology for an offensive statement, not some vague roundabout words that ultimately solve nothing.
    Personally, I don't think anyone was directly comparing 9/11 to furry discrimination. Someone was expressing their opinion that furries face discrimination based on the acts of a few extremists just like other groups have. They have the right to their opinion, and you have the right to yours, and I hope at the end of it we can all agree to disagree if that's what it comes to.

    But my role as Founder is to promote and reinforce the principles and ideals of this community, which is why I posted what I did. It's not my place to apologize when somebody in Wintreath has an opinion that offends somebody else in Wintreath. It's not something I can offer and have it mean anything. Maybe an apology will be forthcoming. I don't know. But I hope you and others aren't disappointed if it's not.

    What? I’m sorry, but this is just not a good response at all. You can’t say discrimination is bad after COMPARING PEOPLE WHO TROLL FURRIES ONLINE TO 9/11! And rather than actually trying to debate or fight a claim or even respond in general to someone calling out an absolute garbage take, you say “We need to fight discrimination” “We’re all friends.” And “That’s what makes Wintreath.” No, that’s not how you respond. We aren’t in elementary school, we know discrimination is bad. Just respond.
    I have no interest in fighting people because they have an opinion, whether I agree with it or not...and beyond that, I think that it would be inappropriate for me to start doing so. Do you really want me to start policing what I think are the *right* and *wrong* opinions everytime people have a difference of opinion?

    Again, what seems to be wanted here isn't something that can come from me. All I can do is try to remind people not to let their anger get the best of them, and that when it comes to the issue of discrimination...we're really all on the same side here. Fighting it out isn't going to do anything but stir up a lot of anger and hard feelings among people who have been friends and virtual neighbors...it's not going to resolve anything here.
    "it's no different than when, say, 9/11 happened and suddenly all Muslims were awful evil people that couldn't be trusted." - Michi

    Moot, what part of this is not directly comparing the events to 9/11 and the subsequent treatment of Muslims to furry discrimination? There is an incredible, massive difference between the two: Furry travel bans don't exist, anti-fur suit laws don't exist. But you know what does? Muslim travel bans and anti-hijab laws.

    I'm sorry, but this "both sides have the right to their opinion" mindset is solving absolutely nothing. There are members of Wintreath that have to fear for the treatment of not only themselves and their community, but their family as well, and often in circumstances that cannot be reasonably hidden or fairly changed. Let's be real: that comment is not inclusive. At all. Why is it so hard to recognize that and make an apology? Are you not the public figure of Wintreath, who represents how inclusive the community is? Is that post not even remotely close to contradicting this community's values?

    Personally, I don't think anyone was directly comparing 9/11 to furry discrimination. Someone was expressing their opinion that furries face discrimination based on the acts of a few extremists just like other groups have. They have the right to their opinion, and you have the right to yours, and I hope at the end of it we can all agree to disagree if that's what it comes to.
    This is correct, yes.  I wasn't trying to minimize the horrific nature and aftermath of 9/11 in any way whatsoever, but was using an example of how the actions of a few extremists completely warped the opinions of a particular group (in this case both Middle Eastern folks and folks who identified as Muslim) to the degree that it did...and still does today.  While, yes, I could have possibly used a better example, it felt like a perfectly valid comparison to use.  With LGBTQ+ folks, we get almost consistently labeled by Anti-LGBTQ+ folks as pedophiles or groomers because a few bad apples engaged in such horrendous acts and they became known (to which those folks are immediately disowned by the LGBTQ+ community in every way imaginable)...which absolutely resurfaced even in recent years as an alt-right talking point when those bathroom bill talks began in regards to transgender folks. Immediately trans folks were suddenly once again being labeled as nothing but child predators who could just dress up and change pronouns on a whim so they could be in the same bathroom that your kid is in. It's a gross and untrue generalization to do nothing but demonize and invalidate the trans community.

    Yes, there's absolutely much more in depth issues when it comes to LGBTQ+ discrimination, racism, and religious discrimination because they've had nothing but time since before the internet was even a thing to be allowed to grow into the colossal horrendous messes that they are.  What still happens today to folks in these communities is absolutely disgusting, horrible, shocking, and baffling to say the least that humans can act they way they do when it comes to the sheer hatred I see from folks on the levels that I see or read about in even current news.  I was absolutely floored that a large portion of people were totally okay blaming Covid on China and coming up with deragatory names for it to expel that gross propaganda for it, and the rise in hatred towards the Asian community that surfaced because some people are monumentally stupid enough to buy into that propagandic nonsense.  Hell, I'm still trying to comprehend that fact that we (well, not "we" since I didn't vote for him) even elected a president that not only condoned such things, but fueled the sentiment himself by throwing out the racist names for the virus that he did...and there's still people that think he was a fantastic president and want him back (like...I'm sorry, what?).  But it's a 100% undisputable fact that racial/gender/sexual orientation/religious discrimination are absolutely out of control to the point of legitimately frightening how far anti-folks will go to the point of killing someone or joining groups dedicated to the eradication of anyone that isn't a straight white cisgender male/female.  It's terrifying to say the absolute least and I'm absolutely not minimizing these facts in the slightest.

    However, I'd also like to ask that you not do the same to furry hatred in kind and minimize the discrimination to the community by brushing it aside as just "online trolling".  There may be some trolling (as there is for most things these days), but it's definitely evolved into legitimate hatred from folks in various communities who will constantly confuse them as folks who will do horrendous sexual things with animals (or I guess Zoophiles according to Nox).  All because some bad apples decided to do just that, it's been growing problem that more and more folks are under the belief that all furries are into bestiality of that kind no matter how much the community tries to prove otherwise.  While it may not be on the same level as the examples I used in the overall sense since it hasn't had the same amount of time and circumstances to grow into such, my point was that like those other examples all it took was a few bad folks that the community itself 100% disowns to do those horrible things...but it's completely warped enough folks' opinions on the entire community to continually earn derogatory names and remarks to folks who identify as furries, violence toward them and yes, even death to folks in the community...even if it may not be often enough or however you want to look at it to be considered on the same level as other types of larger discrimination. And it's stuff that rather than slowing down, I only see it as continuing until the spotlight will inevitably fall on it and that hatred eventually rises to similar levels as time progresses.

    But if you're looking for an apology, unfortunately all I'm going to say is that I'm sorry if you're looking into it as if I was trying to directly compare the entirety of 9/11 or entirety of LGBTQ+ discrimination to furry discrimination...because I absolutely wasn't.  I even tried making it pretty clear that I was focusing on specific examples, and even ended on this note

    Quote
    Honestly, it's all gross stuff that people try to throw out there to demonize the different communities...all because a couple of folks did stupid shit.
    to emphasize that I was purely focusing on that specific point...in which the point was that generalizing folks because of a few bad apples is gross, but sadly it's a thing that people do and have continually done in examples such as those.

    So I apologize if it didn't translate that way when you read it, but unfortunately I'm not going to apologize for having that opinion since those examples were perfectly valid comparisons to make in that instance.
    So you're not going to take accountability for so recklessly and insensitively comparing the discrimination of furries to the real life systemic oppression and killings of Muslims after 9/11, for both their religion and their color of skin? Got it.

    By your argument, Michi, I'm no different: I'm a Norse Pagan. Norse Pagans are stereotyped as radicalized white supremacists and have had incidents of systemic oppressions, such as US prisons banning Mjolnir pendants for many years. We get treated with discrimination by many people. However, I am not about to say that the discrimination that general Norse Pagans face is even remotely comparable to the treatment of Muslims or POC.
    4 people like this post: taulover, Joslisonoria, Gausburg, Waggleton
    « Last Edit: February 06, 2023, 10:29:57 PM by Svipjoth »
    Svipjoth
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  • This is a terrible representation of moderation.
    2 people like this post: Holy Spire, taulover
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    Waggleton
    • Retribution!
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    Holy Spire
  • Former Citizen
  • This is a terrible representation of moderation.
    But its a good representation of immaturity, as michi says “i will only apologize that you misinterpreted it” basically flipping the blame to us. I’ve never seen someone who pretends to be the pinnacle of maturity be soo immature.
    3 people like this post: Joslisonoria, Gausburg, Waggleton
    Holy Spire
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    Wintermoot
  • Regional Stability Squad
  • The Greyscale Magi-Monk
  • I'm sorry for locking this topic. The advice to went against my better judgement, but I know it came from a place of wanting not to make a bad situation even worse.

    I think after the heated discussion in #wintreath with Svip (which actually did a lot to relieve my frustrations), I've realized this is really a terrible misunderstanding. Nobody in the furry club meant to compare the discrimination and suffering of different groups. It wasn't even on our radar, which is why I think we couldn't understand where you were coming from until we dug into the exact words in the Discord chat. We were just comparing how discrimination is spread, how in each case hatemongers paint an entire group based on the actions of its extremists...terrorists for Muslims, zoophiles for furries, and pedophiles for LGBTQ+ people. It really went no further than that, and I'm sorry if the wording in anyone's post made it sound like we were trivializing anyone's struggle. That's not what we're about at all, and I hate that it looked that way to anybody. =/

    Uniqueness shouldn't be hated on, it should be cherished and celebrated...it's what makes life different and not boring, getting to meet and know so many different people. That's one of the things I love about Wintreath. But that's why we have to fight.

    Again, I'm sorry that the wording made it sound the way it did, and that this whole thing went as far as it did and hurt/stressed so many people out in the process. =/
    4 people like this post: Joslisonoria, TGN, taulover, Aport


    I went all the way to Cassadega to commune with the dead
    They said "You'd better look alive"
    Wintermoot
    • The Greyscale Magi-Monk
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