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Time: Round 9 Day

Root Host: Michi

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Yes select one of the two options that were in play instead of creating a new option. Especially a new option that existed because of a joke made by me day 1. As much as ***I*** hate it no Lynch was an option and you really could've voted that instead if you didn't want me lynched and didn't have a read.

Any tied wagon is scummy but ***YOU*** caused that tie therefore you are scummy.

Why? If it were later in the game I might agree with you, but it's day 1 and we don't have anything to go on. Why is having more options worse by default in that situation?

I moved my vote because I'd rather rand myself dead or get maj'd by someone than leave a 3 way coin flip,  the last second jump on felt scummy so I moved my vote to prevent kiddIan from going over. Mr dying yesterday would thus provide you with info.

So you acted the way you did explicitly to protect Kiddian. Why? Do you know that he isn't actually a wolf? He wouldn't be the first new player to actually be one, you know.

Are you accusing me of TMI? Please I don't get this at all.

You said that you moved your vote to prevent Kiddian from going over. You did so in a way that ultimately raised the odds of your own death, as Gerrick pointed out. Usually when someone puts themselves at greater risk it's for a good reason, so I'm asking you why you did so. So far you've only said that you hate coin flips, but that doesn't seem like a very worthy hill to die on.

The most suspicious thing in that round was your behaviour in response to my vote. On the surface, it was illogical and self-sabotaging. Based on Gerrick's response, now I'm wondering if you're trying to raise suspicions that we're a wolf team so if I'm voted off and revealed as a villager it'll reflect well on you.

None of this makes sense. I moved my vote to protect a lynch candidate who was being wagoned for no reason?

If anyone looks bad here it's you and I can safely assume why

Again, you did so in a way that raised the odds of your own death, and again it's day 1. Is there a good reason that you were a candidate, for that matter?

Which gets to my point, really. On day 1, when there's nothing to go on, what makes one method of voting any more or less valid than another? What makes piling on you or voting no lynch more valid tactics than putting another option out there? What do you think made you a better vote choice than Kiddian, for that matter?

Yes select one of the two options that were in play instead of creating a new option. Especially a new option that existed because of a joke made by me day 1. As much as ***I*** hate it no Lynch was an option and you really could've voted that instead if you didn't want me lynched and didn't have a read.

Any tied wagon is scummy but ***YOU*** caused that tie therefore you are scummy.

Why? If it were later in the game I might agree with you, but it's day 1 and we don't have anything to go on. Why is having more options worse by default in that situation?

I moved my vote because I'd rather rand myself dead or get maj'd by someone than leave a 3 way coin flip,  the last second jump on felt scummy so I moved my vote to prevent kiddIan from going over. Mr dying yesterday would thus provide you with info.

So you acted the way you did explicitly to protect Kiddian. Why? Do you know that he isn't actually a wolf? He wouldn't be the first new player to actually be one, you know.

Are you accusing me of TMI? Please I don't get this at all.

You said that you moved your vote to prevent Kiddian from going over. You did so in a way that ultimately raised the odds of your own death, as Gerrick pointed out. Usually when someone puts themselves at greater risk it's for a good reason, so I'm asking you why you did so. So far you've only said that you hate coin flips, but that doesn't seem like a very worthy hill to die on.

The most suspicious thing in that round was your behaviour in response to my vote. On the surface, it was illogical and self-sabotaging. Based on Gerrick's response, now I'm wondering if you're trying to raise suspicions that we're a wolf team so if I'm voted off and revealed as a villager it'll reflect well on you.

None of this makes sense. I moved my vote to protect a lynch candidate who was being wagoned for no reason?

If anyone looks bad here it's you and I can safely assume why

Again, you did so in a way that raised the odds of your own death, and again it's day 1. Is there a good reason that you were a candidate, for that matter?

Which gets to my point, really. On day 1, when there's nothing to go on, what makes one method of voting any more or less valid than another? What makes piling on you or voting no lynch more valid tactics than putting another option out there? What do you think made you a better vote choice than Kiddian, for that matter?

Tell me Wintermoot. Who is more likely to risk themselves to provide information to the town in a set up like this?


When the wagons provided are myself Kiddian or no Lynch and the kiddian wagon was illogically formed on a joke and I know my own role and don't know kiddians I was free to make a logical choice with the info I had available. In this set up that info was simple my death is a benefit and outweighs the cost of saving myself at the expense of an unknown who could be a power role.

Your choice was easy too if your a wolf as I suspect,  rand the vote between two town wagons since you have no clue which town is a power role but you know your scum buds aren't in danger. 

@Neon Abigail: So what you're trying to tell me is that you were martyring yourself. On Day 1. Over somebody whose role you explicitly say you don't know but go on to automatically assume that they're town ("rand the vote between two town wagons").

If you're going to tell me that Kiddian might be a power role, then you have to acknowledge that he might also be a wolf...unless you have information otherwise. So you can't say my vote for him is invalid as town.

@Neon Abigail: So what you're trying to tell me is that you were martyring yourself. On Day 1. Over somebody whose role you explicitly say you don't know but go on to automatically assume that they're town ("rand the vote between two town wagons").

If you're going to tell me that Kiddian might be a power role, then you have to acknowledge that he might also be a wolf...unless you have information otherwise. So you can't say my vote for him is invalid as town.

Sure he might be you might be too except one of you has some something horribly scummy and tripled down on it and the other has...roleplayed. 

And I can not continue to stress to you that I would rather martyr myself to provide info than kill a power role. 

@Neon Abigail: This particularly thing aside, what you just said isn't logical. If you know that you're town, and you don't have any clue what role Kiddian might be, then martyring yourself just gives the wolves a free kill. If you had reason to believe Kiddian was a power role what you're saying might be more reasonable, but you don't. 

You acknowledge that he might be a wolf, so you're saying you're willing to sacrifice yourself, someone you know (or at least claim to know) to be town for somebody you have no clue on at all.

And you have yet to explain why providing another option on Day 1 when there's nothing to go on is "horribly scummy". Repeating the same assertion over and over again doesn't make it true.

@Neon Abigail: This particularly thing aside, what you just said isn't logical. If you know that you're town, and you don't have any clue what role Kiddian might be, then martyring yourself just gives the wolves a free kill. If you had reason to believe Kiddian was a power role what you're saying might be more reasonable, but you don't.

You acknowledge that he might be a wolf, so you're saying you're willing to sacrifice yourself, someone you know (or at least claim to know) to be town for somebody you have no clue on at all.

And you have yet to explain why providing another option on Day 1 when there's nothing to go on is "horribly scummy". Repeating the same assertion over and over again doesn't make it true.

I know what I am and I don't care if I die do the math. 

What I'm saying makes perfect sense. A lynch day 1 kills town more often than scum, it's intrinsic value is in info which my death provides. I've gotten info though so I'm not too worried about it just wish there was more info no lynching sucks.

It shouldn't be too hard to catch my drift. My death doesn't matter. Killing a cop or a doc or whatever else does.

@Neon Abigail: Your death should matter. It's one thing to sacrifice yourself for the greater good, another to just be reckless about it. But that's something we're going to have to agree to disagree about, I suppose.

What exact information would your death provide other than your role, same as everyone else's? It's day 1, you're not privy to any special knowledge that I'm aware of, and we can't even go back through what you said in past rounds and see how it fits within your role. If anything, one could make the argument that as town you're a player whose value increases the longer you stay alive, because you're especially active in games and make your thoughts and opinions known. If you had been killed off, we wouldn't be having this lovely conversation for people to go back to later on, for example.

But I don't see how your death on the first day would provide any real usable knowledge.

@Neon Abigail: Your death should matter. It's one thing to sacrifice yourself for the greater good, another to just be reckless about it. But that's something we're going to have to agree to disagree about, I suppose.

What exact information would your death provide other than your role, same as everyone else's? It's day 1, you're not privy to any special knowledge that I'm aware of, and we can't even go back through what you said in past rounds and see how it fits within your role. If anything, one could make the argument that as town you're a player whose value increases the longer you stay alive, because you're especially active in games and make your thoughts and opinions known. If you had been killed off, we wouldn't be having this lovely conversation for people to go back to later on, for example.

But I don't see how your death on the first day would provide any real usable knowledge.

Werewolf is all about info. My death gives info based on who pushed me why they pushed me who pushed against that why they pushed against that and how I flip.
My flip is quite literally the information. 
Tell me why do we kill someone day 1? Is it on hopes we shoot a bucket of fish and kill a wolf? No that's great if we hit a wolf but we lynch day 1 because it provides info no matter who dies.

@Neon Abigail: Your death should matter. It's one thing to sacrifice yourself for the greater good, another to just be reckless about it. But that's something we're going to have to agree to disagree about, I suppose.

What exact information would your death provide other than your role, same as everyone else's? It's day 1, you're not privy to any special knowledge that I'm aware of, and we can't even go back through what you said in past rounds and see how it fits within your role. If anything, one could make the argument that as town you're a player whose value increases the longer you stay alive, because you're especially active in games and make your thoughts and opinions known. If you had been killed off, we wouldn't be having this lovely conversation for people to go back to later on, for example.

But I don't see how your death on the first day would provide any real usable knowledge.

Werewolf is all about info. My death gives info based on who pushed me why they pushed me who pushed against that why they pushed against that and how I flip.
My flip is quite literally the information.
Tell me why do we kill someone day 1? Is it on hopes we shoot a bucket of fish and kill a wolf? No that's great if we hit a wolf but we lynch day 1 because it provides info no matter who dies.

Except I am far more willing to be the one who dies in certain scenarios than to kill someone important to the game state. 
Someone needs to die and if it's me or an unknown who could be a power role who's being pushed for no reason which you continue to ignore than yes I'll kill myself if the circumstances dictate that provide the most useful data set.

@Neon Abigail: Your death should matter. It's one thing to sacrifice yourself for the greater good, another to just be reckless about it. But that's something we're going to have to agree to disagree about, I suppose.

What exact information would your death provide other than your role, same as everyone else's? It's day 1, you're not privy to any special knowledge that I'm aware of, and we can't even go back through what you said in past rounds and see how it fits within your role. If anything, one could make the argument that as town you're a player whose value increases the longer you stay alive, because you're especially active in games and make your thoughts and opinions known. If you had been killed off, we wouldn't be having this lovely conversation for people to go back to later on, for example.

But I don't see how your death on the first day would provide any real usable knowledge.

Werewolf is all about info. My death gives info based on who pushed me why they pushed me who pushed against that why they pushed against that and how I flip.
My flip is quite literally the information.
Tell me why do we kill someone day 1? Is it on hopes we shoot a bucket of fish and kill a wolf? No that's great if we hit a wolf but we lynch day 1 because it provides info no matter who dies.

Except I am far more willing to be the one who dies in certain scenarios than to kill someone important to the game state.
Someone needs to die and if it's me or an unknown who could be a power role who's being pushed for no reason which you continue to ignore than yes I'll kill myself if the circumstances dictate that provide the most useful data set.

And if you watched my wolf game you know this ain't it. 

@Neon Abigail: Then by the same token, the people who pushed for or against you probably don't have any special knowledge either on day 1. It's not like a day 1 kill is ever going to provide a wealth of knowledge, and I still think due to your activity and your...forwardness the information your death would provide increases as the game goes on. Therefore, if you know you're town (as you've said, this isn't a read on my part) I feel it does town a disservice to get yourself killed on the first day unless you're pretty reasonably sure you're protecting an actual town or power role. For all you know, your sacrificing yourself, someone you know is town (again, not a judgement from me) for a wolf.

But this is getting more into gameplay philosophy than the actual events of the game, so I'll drop the matter unless something new and relevant comes up about it. Perhaps this would be an interesting discussion for the Werewolf conversation area after the game.

@Neon Abigail: Then by the same token, the people who pushed for or against you probably don't have any special knowledge either on day 1. It's not like a day 1 kill is ever going to provide a wealth of knowledge, and I still think due to your activity and your...forwardness the information your death would provide increases as the game goes on. Therefore, if you know you're town (as you've said, this isn't a read on my part) I feel it does town a disservice to get yourself killed on the first day unless you're pretty reasonably sure you're protecting an actual town or power role. For all you know, your sacrificing yourself, someone you know is town (again, not a judgement from me) for a wolf.

But this is getting more into gameplay philosophy than the actual events of the game, so I'll drop the matter unless something new and relevant comes up about it. Perhaps this would be an interesting discussion for the Werewolf conversation area after the game.

Except what you fail to acknowledge is that wolves always have information town needs to lynch to get info because they are naturally at an info disadvantage. Without my flip or a flip at all we've robbed town of info that the wolves already know. 

Town remains in the dark and the wolves advantage grows.

.dedne sah esahp thgin ehT

.hsart eht otni nworht saw ydoboN

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2202/11/7 no sruoh 84 ni dne lliw hcihw ,esahp yad wen a otni evom eW

Vote: Wintermoot

I've laid my case is me or him

Ooh hello again!  

I arrive.  Anyone care to catch me up on what has transpired?