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Game Over on Round 4 Day

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Are you blaming me for Gerrick being lynched when there was only two votes on him (myself and Michi) when deadline came? Because as I read how you see me, it looks like that's the case on top of some weird interpretation of the events. Like, I switched my vote from Corbin to Gerrick and the post wherein I voted as such was quite clear as to why. So you find it odd that I left what, at the time, was the lead wagon to pursue Gerrick (prior to his claim) and you find that scummy? In a vacuum I assume since that seemingly ignores the whys of my post. And what is this accusation of power wolfing? Because, again, Gerrick got lynched over me? If that's the case, then the reasoning seems pretty two fold for justifying your stance there:

First, that I was power wolfing because I knew Gerrick would get lynched over me, thus making it assured that someone had to use a unilateral vote control ability to literally usurp the lynch to make sure Gerrick was lynched over me. That is, strictly speaking, you think that that ability is in the hands of the mafia as opposed to a town as, typically, an ability like the Kingmaker is typically town or, at least, 3p in nature. But hey, I suppose you could have a vote control ability of that nature paired with night killing too for the mafia. Dissonant as that is anyway.

Second, the team would exactly be Michi and myself. The reasoning being that in order for me to have survived that, a Kingmaker's vote typically decides the lynch (and either myself or Michi would be the Kingmaker in this circumstance). That, or alternatively someone had a Kingmaker-esque ability that could be used in such a way without having to out themself and they purposefully made it so only Gerrick could be lynched though that seems eh to me. Possible, but eh since that leaves verifying it, without a claim, nigh impossible outside of the fact that it happened. And, just so we're on the same page, I shall reiterate that I am not the Kingmaker or have any ability.

I should preface this with that I'm not familiar with a lot of the roles that have been revealed or mentioned; I just know the old stalwarts of Seer/Cop, Protector/Doc, that sort, so if there's some role I've misunderstood that's mb.

Anyway; not necessarily blaming you for the Kingmaker (assuming that's a role that forces the person's vote to count more?). Rather I was suggesting that you just went absolutely ham on powerwolfing by convincing votes to flip off of you despite the fact that Gerrick had revealed as, from what I can tell, a fairly important seeming role. However, on further reflection, that's 1) NAI (well, not necessarily, anyway) since the only person you ever know is town is yourself, and a lot of people are going to be persuaded by big walls of text and an impression that someone knows what they were doing, and 2) if so, the majority vote wouldn't have remained on you; it'd be a really shitty attempt at scum to try and save themselves to hop off of you, then hop right back on.
However, I do think scum are likely to be somewhere amidst the people who flipflopped between you and Gerrick - which would be at least one of Abi, Mel, or Michi. Because of my last point, I think it's likeliest of the three to be Michi, especially with Mel likely being the Neutral at worst and Town at best, but all three are somewhat suspect imo.

So, I did start the game as 3rd party, and my alignment and role were determined by who visited me. Sort of like an amnesiac, but with what I wound up with completely out of my control.

A bunch of you visited me last night, and RNGesus had to come into play.

I am now Town Doctor #2.

Gotta be honest there's a near zero percent chance I buy this when you were copped last night and the result was 3P

Since it was also mentioned on the discord, I'm also super curious what the "medical anomoly" was that was "cured."  Do we have a poison and poison healing type role?

It took me waaaaay to long to realize that discord was the Wintreath server updates and not that this was you slipping up and admitting to being in mafia chat lol

Anyways. Nope.

Vote: Melehan

No way.

So, I did start the game as 3rd party, and my alignment and role were determined by who visited me. Sort of like an amnesiac, but with what I wound up with completely out of my control.

A bunch of you visited me last night, and RNGesus had to come into play.

I am now Town Doctor #2.

Gotta be honest there's a near zero percent chance I buy this when you were copped last night and the result was 3P

Since it was also mentioned on the discord, I'm also super curious what the "medical anomoly" was that was "cured."  Do we have a poison and poison healing type role?

It took me waaaaay to long to realize that discord was the Wintreath server updates and not that this was you slipping up and admitting to being in mafia chat lol

Anyways. Nope.

Vote: Melehan

No way.

I was 3rd party when copped because the role resolved at the end of the night, after all the other actions on me.  It wasn't a "you copy the role of the first person who visits you" mechanic but a "you take the role of a person who visits you", and that aside, I've been playing as town because I figured that it was far more likely for town to visit me than scum.

Assuming my doctor role works the exact same as the original town doctor's role, we can protect each other indefinitely because there's no restriction on consecutive protection. That's incredibly useful for town. And I don't even need the other doctor to out because I'm pretty sure I know who it is.

My role is capable of publicly self-resolving. Worst case, Kane spends another check on me confirming my alignment. Lynching me today over fears I'm lying about my alignment makes no sense when we have a player who has confirmed mechanical info from a mechanially confirmed tracker that places her at the scene of Aerso's death.

Vro, I suspect subbed in for inactive scum considering he's subtly jumpstared the "Lynch Melehan" narrative. Neon was tracked to Aerso the Aerso was murdered.

Vote: Neon Abigail

Ah yes Mel. A very valid argument.

Let's run this case down.

Mel. Has been copped. Has admitted to being a killer. Has claimed to have played the game town sided despite yanno actively murdering someone night 1. Shows on scan as 3P but let's give it another day so we can have another dead town yes?

Abbi. Has been tracked which is not a cop btw in a game where most people can in fact go places and visit people. Has claimed a role that can be copped by Kane. Has not admitted to being a killer and is not a killer. 

But don't kill the verified killer because they can be copped AGAIN instead kill a town who can also be copped to put town in lylo with two potential night kills to just straight up end the game. 

What's more likely? Mel magically became a second doctor after being a verified 3P anti town killer. Or I'm a role that has been used in other mafia games and just chose the wrong target night 1

I'm not sure where you're getting that I claimed I was a killer, because I never did. You're reaching. And that is scummy.

See because Mel if I'm town siding with the ability you claim to have I'm always convincing a town to protect me night 1 so I can flippy floppy town and I'm certainly not killing someone.

But if I'm a wolf in this situation right now I'm never pushing you because if you're lying which you are keeping you alive probably just wins the game even in a world where a wolf needs to be sacrificed.

But further I can not see a game design world where in a set up that is already this scum sided there would be a 3p role that could flip mafia. Because in a world where there's 8 town 3 mafia and 1 killer at the very least the killer and the mafia can't work together but in a world where the mafia can turn the killer into a mafia and that action can take place any night than you could conceivably have a scenario where mafia just has so many players they can just power lynch and win

I'm not sure where you're getting that I claimed I was a killer, because I never did. You're reaching. And that is scummy.

Unless you are trying to claim there's a killer and another neutral 3P role. 

And thus your trying to claim town only had 7 players at game start.
Than no I'm not reaching. Try again. 

So, I did start the game as 3rd party, and my alignment and role were determined by who visited me. Sort of like an amnesiac, but with what I wound up with completely out of my control.

A bunch of you visited me last night, and RNGesus had to come into play.

I am now Town Doctor #2.

Gotta be honest there's a near zero percent chance I buy this when you were copped last night and the result was 3P

Since it was also mentioned on the discord, I'm also super curious what the "medical anomoly" was that was "cured."  Do we have a poison and poison healing type role?

It took me waaaaay to long to realize that discord was the Wintreath server updates and not that this was you slipping up and admitting to being in mafia chat lol

Anyways. Nope.

Vote: Melehan

No way.

I was 3rd party when copped because the role resolved at the end of the night, after all the other actions on me.  It wasn't a "you copy the role of the first person who visits you" mechanic but a "you take the role of a person who visits you", and that aside, I've been playing as town because I figured that it was far more likely for town to visit me than scum.

Assuming my doctor role works the exact same as the original town doctor's role, we can protect each other indefinitely because there's no restriction on consecutive protection. That's incredibly useful for town. And I don't even need the other doctor to out because I'm pretty sure I know who it is.

My role is capable of publicly self-resolving. Worst case, Kane spends another check on me confirming my alignment. Lynching me today over fears I'm lying about my alignment makes no sense when we have a player who has confirmed mechanical info from a mechanially confirmed tracker that places her at the scene of Aerso's death.

Vro, I suspect subbed in for inactive scum considering he's subtly jumpstared the "Lynch Melehan" narrative. Neon was tracked to Aerso the Aerso was murdered.

Vote: Neon Abigail

The problem is that we really can't do that. The worst case scenario is that there are now hypothetically 3 separate roles capable of killing if you're now an SK, and we have no way to say that if you're now a wolf, the wolves won't try to kill the actual doctor (who I believe I also know) and then Kane the next night, for example, while the other killer(s) goes on a rampage, because you're forcing the doctor to protect Kane so he can give his information.

In terms of cost-risk analysis, keeping you alive isn't worth it in my eyes. You should not be defending yourself based on the information you've given us. Because you are, pardon me if it worries me. While I hope to use this day to solve elsewhere, I have absolutely no qualms chopping you, I wouldn't say I've been subtle about that. If you're the new doctor, I'll take responsibility.

The intricacies of what you are trying to propose are confusing and have a few holes. Even if you're a town doctor, either Kane is left without defense, the doctor is left without defense (and you may even be wrong about who they are), or you are left without defense. With two killers, do you like the odds that this will all work out somehow? If you die it's all moot. If the doctor dies we're right back where we started. If Kane dies we have no way to prove you are who you say you are and have to chop you anyway, which would be so much worse if we have to do it tomorrow rather than today. Neon's claim and your own are both so convoluted that I believe at least most parts about them. I just lack what I need to say anything for certain.

@ Doc:

A strict note: Me going ham happened prior to Gerrick claiming town lookout. The timing of his claim was unfortunate (not that it mattered as he did get people off his wagon and onto me me anyway -- one of which was Neon flipping from Gerrick and onto me).

As for Neon, Mel, and Michi -- well here's what I'm seeing. Kane is pretty much town at this point. I'm seeing you as town mostly through your vocalized thoughts, plus it's not contributing to the mess that has developed right now between Mel/Neon. As Mel has observed, Vro seems intent on chopping through Mel despite Mel's claim (so that'd put Neon and Vro in the same basket in terms of approaching PoE). Plus we have those not actively participating like Svi, Dolby, and to a much lesser extent (that is he has been more active than those last two) Michi.

So let's see who we have left.

Melehan, Michi, Abbi, Svipjoth, Dolby, Kane, KingofDominaria, Vroendal, and Doc

Of those of us left here's what we know based on what was claimed:

From Gerrick we know Neon targeted Aers and that Dolby targeted Neon. Per Neon's claim (as Vro had pointed out to me) Neon is informed if a kill is directed at her so Dolby didn't commit a kill action (indeed was seen targeting Neon anyway).

Kane is a cop so we can take his claim at face value (more or less) and assume he wasn't responsible for the either Aers or NoName dying. So far, out of the 9 of us, that leaves 6, from an outside perspective, that could have made the kills (7 if you think Neon is lying about her role and did kill Aers).

From where I stand, I'm not considering Doc in this entire process (nor myself) so that puts me at about 4 people assuming I take Neon at face value: Vro, Svi, Michi, and Mel. I can strictly treat Doc and Kane as town here and, due to Neon's claim, can also ignore Dolby as the potential killer from the first night (though that doesn't mean he can't be mafia). I still find it extremely suspect that, given Gerrick's knowledge of Neon's movement, that the same person she targeted also died, but, in hindsight, it doesn't make sense for Neon, as mafia, to flip from Gerrick into trying to elim me when Gerrick was strictly more of a danger to her longevity to the game (given his claim). And it's not like she would have foresight of the Kingmaker move that ultimately ended Gerrick's life while saving my own. Especially if you consider that Neon and I were mostly in similar veins of thoughts regarding the game throughout D1 and D2. So flipping to me to remove me, aside from just lol chaotic, doesn't serve a scum Neon that well.

In short, I believe that tidbit of analysis helps alleviate my issue towards Neon with targeting Aers.

@ Neon: In summary, regarding your role, you hide behind a target and are essentially bulletproof. You're informed of a kill attempt on you, and should you hide behind a nontown(?) target you die, correct? You, essentially, can inform us of who you are hiding behind to help serve as a check on a person's alignment you know.

Anyway, with the pool of people I mentioned (Vro, Svi, Michi, and Mel) that's a pretty good pool of people to elim from first and foremost. I do not agree with going after Mel should her claim have merit. Way I see it we have two choices here for elimination: an inactive one (like Svi) or Mel due to claims.

Mel, if truly a malignant 3p aka the Killer, will be self resolving due to being known. A SK hardly is ever able to win together with mafia so, likely, the mafia will have to waste a kill removing her as opposed to town. That's the at worst case. At best, if Mel is honest about her role, then town loses utility that would greatly help (and forces the mafia to contend with least they have go through a claimed protective role being on board). In either case, there is benefit to town not resolving Mel.

That's vastly different to resolving an inactive like Svi. The participation is extremely low as is any information to help resolve what we're dealing with.

Michi is an option in terms of PoE, but I am actually going to remove Michi from my PoE. Given what I've said before about the Kingmaker, it's extremely possible Michi saved my life when, honestly, why bother? That helps narrow *my* PoE further to one of Svi, Vro, or Mel (though I'm not considering Mel and, additionally, I may consider Dolby for possibly being mafia due to the targeting of Neon N1 which may have the two unpaired at the very least).

So yeah.


Vote: Svipjoth

I do believe this is the hill where I will stand.

This new votecount (and postcount!!!!) feature is pretty slick! Saves a lot of time too, lol.
Although I'll note that Corbin doesn't seem to have been removed from whatever program does it, since it's still showing both him and me in votecount. Aren/Marz please fix! Unless that's unresolvable from him being marked as 'dying day 3' in the player count, in which case all gucci.

A strict note: Me going ham happened prior to Gerrick claiming town lookout. The timing of his claim was unfortunate (not that it mattered as he did get people off his wagon and onto me me anyway -- one of which was Neon flipping from Gerrick and onto me).

Mmm. Fair point, and one I hadn't acknowledged. I'll bear it in mind for the future.

- the rest of the post snipped for space -

Seems your analysis hinges on wolf team being largely silent, but then why the switch from Dolby to Svip? Dolby seems to have been just as quiet recently, although they have more posts on aggregate.

My personal inclination is towards a vote for Dolby, which I'll put in for now at the end of this post but note that I 1) have some reservations about this, since this is largely a lynch based on inactivity, and 2) have plenty of time today lol so I'll be able to look at any arguments that come in over the next 10ish hours and change my mind accordingly.
However, one last standout point, which strikes me as somewhat weird:

...
From where I stand, I'm not considering Doc in this entire process (nor myself) so that puts me at about 4 people assuming I take Neon at face value: Vro, Svi, Michi, and Mel. I can strictly treat Doc and Kane as town here...

I mean, on the one hand I feel like I've tried to be fairly solve-y. On the other hand that doesn't feel like it should account for a total 180 on what felt like a pretty firm scumread on Corbin to town core on me in the space of 2 actually substantive posts (since my first was 'hi everyone' and my third was 'wow where is everybody'). Obviously I'm pretty happy to be being townread, but I can't help but feel like an attempt to pocket me is in play...and one that's evidently fairly successful since I've softened on you from a probable scumread to townread...?
Shit, I dunno, my mind for this shit is rusty, I don't know if I'm just doing some WIFOM shit rn.

Anyway (boy is this an adjustment, from the old votes in bold);
Vote: Dolby

Okay, so a quick backread, and I find myself coming back to the EoD2 wagons.

I panic voted and also expected more people to be on and switching votes, which left 3 wagons tied: Gerrick, KoD, and Corbin.

Neon switching off Gerrick onto KoD instead of Corbin, who she was actively shading for basically the entire game up to that point, combined with how KoD and Neon keep supporting/defending each other makes me see that vote switch as an attempt to distance and claim KoD was pocketing Neon. I keep coming back to KoD and Neon are paired.

I'm also wondering if there were only 2 wolves to start with rather than 3.

What I do know for certain is that Vro and Dolby are definitely not the Killer and Kane is definitely Cop.

What I do know for certain is that Vro and Dolby are definitely not the Killer and Kane is definitely Cop.

Wait, have I missed something? Why is this Known?

This new votecount (and postcount!!!!) feature is pretty slick! Saves a lot of time too, lol.
Although I'll note that Corbin doesn't seem to have been removed from whatever program does it, since it's still showing both him and me in votecount. Aren/Marz please fix! Unless that's unresolvable from him being marked as 'dying day 3' in the player count, in which case all gucci.

*The PA slides a note to Doc*

Not sure why he’s still listed in the vote count- we’ll look into it! In the meantime, rest assured we’re aware of it and will not be counting him for or against any future votes!

Okay, so a quick backread, and I find myself coming back to the EoD2 wagons.

I panic voted and also expected more people to be on and switching votes, which left 3 wagons tied: Gerrick, KoD, and Corbin.

Neon switching off Gerrick onto KoD instead of Corbin, who she was actively shading for basically the entire game up to that point, combined with how KoD and Neon keep supporting/defending each other makes me see that vote switch as an attempt to distance and claim KoD was pocketing Neon. I keep coming back to KoD and Neon are paired.

I'm also wondering if there were only 2 wolves to start with rather than 3.

What I do know for certain is that Vro and Dolby are definitely not the Killer and Kane is definitely Cop.

Correct we are paired. We are both town. Unlike you the self confessed 3P who is totally definitely really not the killer and expects me to believe this set up was that unbelievably broken.