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I've had this article from CNBC in my bookmarks for awhile now, but there's nothing in it that hasn't been stated in other articles.

To summarize, more and more would-be college students have decided that it's not worth the cost. This was a growing trend even before the pandemic because the cost of higher education has grown for decades now. However, now colleges are charging full-price for remote classes, which a lot of students feel doesn't give the college experience they're paying for, so the problem is worse. Instead, more would-be students are looking at career training like trade schools and code camps, jumping straight into a job, or joining the military. The person interviewed in the CNBC article tried remote college, then decided to join the National Guard instead.

We have a lot of people who are either in high school or college, what are your thoughts? For those in high school, has the cost or the pandemic made you reconsider your plans? And for those already in college, do you feel you're getting what you're paying for?

I think that teaching and learning online really is just very difficult. A year and a half ago I would've doubted that claim, but after experiencing it, despite some advantages like a lot more lectures being recorded and rewatchable, overall I think it is a much tougher environment to learn/teach in. It definitely doesn't feel like the same value.

We also have to consider that a key component of college is the socialization/networking aspects of it. Attending from home of course absolutely messes that up. Being back on campus definitely helps, but even then I think the random encounters and chance conversations are still reduced.

I had a conversation similar to this recently with my family over the phone because my younger sister graduated high school and will be attending college at my alma mater this fall. I cannot speak on the potential experiences she might have I can only hope her experiences are better than mine.

Other than meeting my girlfriend of 5 years now, college to me was not worth it. I'll admit I had a fun time being involved in a few student orgs and being around people, but other than that I was a commuter who lived a few minutes away. Because of that I missed out on a lot of events on campus because most days I did not want to deal with the back-and-forth of going to school and the apartment I was staying. There were also times where my car needed some work so I would have to walk. I have nothing against walking if that's your thing, but that's just on my list of why being a commuter was not as fun as I thought it would be.

Aside from being around people, school is school. Everyone wants to be something. Everyone has expectations of others and of themselves and most importantly the grades still matter. The pressure adds up especially if you go to college already knowing what you want to do but then it doesn't work. Put Covid restrictions on top of an already stressed out student and the anxiety gets worse in my opinion. I was never a fan of online learning unless it is self paced. Online homework is the worst too especially for math; you could miss one number or symbol does the homework give you partial credit? Nope.

There is also the matter of student debt. It's bad and it's getting worse as time goes on. If you are in a situation where your student debt is minimal or you get a free ride because of sports or the arts then the college experience is definitely worth it not just for the education but to let your mind wonder about the world asking as many "what if's" as possible. If your student debt is massive and you don't think it is worth spending the next 20 years of your life trying to pay it back, a smart man I met who happens to be one of my main supporters of my career decisions told me this story: He has a friend who graduated high school and went straight to work after in the trades. Over the years he learned from his work experience and worked his way up to where he is now ( I forgot exactly where he is now but it's better than where he started). Now he lives his life, plenty of years behind him, and debt free.

The man who told me this story did not have a college degree when he started with the company he works with to this day. The company wanted to give him a a promotion but couldn't because a degree was required. His company paid for him to get a degree and he was promoted. Some companies pay for you to get the experience you need to advance and pursue self-growth.

Is college worth it? To me it was not but think of it this way; how do you like to learn? How much are you willing to invest to learn about the world?

I had actually forgotten to reply to this, so it was nice to see it come up again!

As someone who has gone through college and who works in higher education, I think it really depends on the person and the career. For example, in computer science if you're interested in showing you have the skills but you're not interested in taking the unrelated courses to become a more well-rounded person or in making connections, you might want to self-study and then take the certifications instead. There's also a lot of options, depending on where you want to go too, from online MOOCs like Udacity that work with employers like Google to community colleges that offer 2-year programs and certificates, tend to be cheaper and more local, and where many states have free or reduced tuition. I believe free community college is also part of Biden's infrastructure plan in the US if that gets passed, so that's a plus too. As has been mentioned before, there's also trade schools, the military, and going straight to employment.

In fact there's so many choices I wonder if that tends to be the problem...students tend to want to go to four-year schools because they're seen as the best choices, when maybe other choices would fit who they are and what they want out of life better. The choice doesn't have to be either go to a four-year college or stop your education and start working, and I think in the US at least we do a terrible job of laying out the options someone really has.

And then there's the debt...I understand that colleges have had to raise tuitions, especially in public systems where states have made big cuts in higher ed, but that doesn't make it easier on the student. Kevin O'Leary (of Dragons' Den and Shark Tank fame) says that wealth is freedom, and if that's true then debt is certainly slavery...you're not only paying back what you borrowed, but you're often paying exuberant interest on top of that. It's a whole other conversation, but it's outrageous how society has casually framed taking on massive amounts of debt as something that's just a normal thing everyone does: debt to purchase a vehicle, debt to go to school, debt to purchase a home, debt to slap things on your credit card, and the list goes on. By the time you go through all that, if all goes well you'll spend the rest of your life just paying off debt and making a lot of money for banks and credit companies. If all doesn't go well you're thoroughly trapped in a system that couldn't care less about you or your circumstances.

So there's a lot to consider, and again I don't think we do a good job in the US of making people aware of all their choices...ultimately the best choice is going to be the one that gets you to where you want to go in life at the least possible cost, but what is that exactly? That's the tricky part.

The biggest problem with higher education in my opinion is that its sold to most as more of a four years all expenses paid by your future self cruise with parties, etc. rather than simply a place to go and get education.  Are there luxury dorms or sports arenas at European schools?  Definitely not.  That's part of the reason why they're much less expensive.  Do they have weird college student councils which burn a ton of money on useless things that are "necessary"?  No.  Ultimately I think that the main reason the cost is so steep in the USA is that the universities have no incentives to reduce costs when compared to their European or East Asian counterparts, for example. 

If the price were the focus rather than the experience when college hunting, the corporations, er, university administrations would have to focus more on cost saving measures, rather than on taking out increasingly large loans for the latest sports complex or bean bag massage facility.

Overall, I think my biggest criticism though of the university system in the United States is the constant reduction in emphasis on critical thought and rhetoric generally and its replacement with what is in essence a premium cruise justified as some sort of job training program.  I could be a bit pessimistic as a graduate into a pretty horrendous job market, but I definitely think that college isn't all that its chalked up to be, and I say that even after graduating and while doing grad school now. 

I'd treat the student debt crisis separately, but I think that it shouldn't be legal for students to take out more than $25,000 in loans for college, and that loans should also be contingent on students getting a job afterward, which is the only real rationale for providing a loan, etc. (giving a kid $150,000 of loans for a degree in something like English is just asking for disaster and shouldn't be legal.)

@BraveSirRobin: Some private universities and large college systems may be buying stadiums and luxury facilities, but I can tell you that's not the case in most public systems. Most states have made heavy cuts in higher education appropriates over the last few decades (on average by 20% since 2000 according to the Urban Institute) to fund other things, forcing colleges to raise tuition and make cuts to programs. I think part of the difference between America and the other places  you listed is also cultural. Education in general is highly valued in those societies and their governments are willing to make investments in them that match. I know that in Japan, the competition for parents to get their kids in the best schools start virtually the moment the kids are born. Education in general just isn't as valued in America...if we're being honest, a lot of prospective students will choose the party school or the school with the bean bag massage facility over the school that can better educate them. They value the experience over the education. Maybe that's why colleges feel the need to provide them.

Your criticism isn't just of the university system, but of the entire American education system as well...it's something I've read a lot about and agree with you on. The original purpose of education in America was to give people basic skills and an appreciation of their role in government and society through civics, then at higher levels make them more rounded people (through courses on history, rhetoric, philosophy, reasoning, the arts, etc.), and that's how the education system functioned for hundreds of years. It was one of the most compelling reasons for making school mandatory for children in the 1900s. But then at some point in the 60s or 70s, there was a scare that we were falling behind other countries such as Japan in education and threw that model out the window in favour of one that emphasized science, math, and job skills instead. I think that unfortunately over time that's leaked into the university system as well, and now you have people who think the only role of education is career training, which shifts things over even worse.

This is off on a tangent, but I've been slowly reading through First Principles: What America's Founders Learned from the Greeks and Romans and How That Shaped Our Country. It focuses in large part on the education of America's first four presidents: Washington (the only one of them not to go to a university), Adams, Jefferson, and Madison. It's fascinating reading about the courses, books, curriculums, and influences behind them (for instance, Scottish professors and tutors who were products of the Enlightment in Scotland), and especially comparing it with education today. It's a good read for anybody that's interested in history or education.

Idk my school has no major sports arenas on campus and people don't care about sports much and the dorms are pretty alright though of questionable quality yet tuition is through the roof so what are they spending it on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think Robin's point does apply to certain public colleges too, some are just known for their athletics and spend all their money on that, because that's what brings in the money, while sacrificing academics or other aspects of student life.

Re: partying, I don't think people at European universities seem to have trouble with that? And it's not like they don't have school-supported student life or any of the other important non-academic things that universities support. It is somewhat tempting to think that the American schools must be more expensive because they're just spending things on non-academic things for students, but with the tuition students are paying, especially for private institutions, I don't think that adds up. I know some colleges are great at providing financial support for students, making sure that students are well-supported in their professional search, etc. but I feel like it's more the exception than the rule. Money is being squandered on the salaries of high-level administration, locked into multi-billion endowments which are treated purely as hedge funds that even in this pandemic are being grown to enrich said administrators and financial managers instead of being tapped into to support students and faculty, and spent ineffectively on large-scale pet projects. And to do this they turn around and try to give as little of that tuition back to the students. European universities have a much better public funding model (even compared to American public schools) that allows them to keep prices lower while still offering practically the same service, even if the curriculum may be generally more specialized.

@taulover: As I don't know what school you go to, I couldn't speak to your experiences.

I'm sure Robin's point does apply to some public colleges, but most of them don't have the benefit of large or famous athletic departments that bring in the money. The same debate could be had to an extent in the high school system, especially when it comes to corporate sponsorships funding athletics at that level...again, I don't think the issues with higher education are as different from those of the general education system as it might seem at first glance.

I still think the culture in America is more geared toward the "student experience" and less toward academics than other regions, including Europe. I'm not saying that partying and student experiences don't exist in Europe, just that I don't think it's as catered to. I know from my personal experience working in the college system that many students would rather go to the bigger college with the better-known name and the reputation for being a party school than the local colleges that offers the same education at a much more affordable price. I also know that many students take out loans to get the college experience they want, even though my state guarantees free tuition for technical programs at community colleges. I think there's a few reasons for that, including poor financial education around student loans and poorer education about the choices that students have, especially from high school counselors.

What you say about high salaries and endowments that act as hedge funds is probably true, especially at larger colleges that can actually afford those things, but I don't think it's the rule in general. Besides perhaps West Virginia University and Marshall University, I can guarantee that isn't true in West Virginia, at least, which is the state that I can most speak to personally.

Right, that last rant was more about the more elite institutions out there. Higher education in America has many, many problems, some of which are general to some important part of it but not all of it. Since Robin's discussion is geared more toward that area, I thought I'd respond in that direction. It's frustrating because those elite schools should be providing a higher quality of education for the implied value, and furthermore especially because a better system would allow those resources to be distributed across all schools.

Neither you or I are European, but I somewhat doubt that European schools and students are somehow less geared towards partying. European teenagers and young adults are kinda known for partying very hard, after all, and the culture and laws are much less conservative which can allow for larger organized parties and more clubbing, etc. The culture might be centered less cohesively around the campus and more around the city, but speaking from experience as someone who goes to school in a major city, that's also just generally going to be the case when a university is more urban.

There are certainly differences between American and European universities, such as more commuters (except for the UK), less general education / more specialization in undergrad, less focus on athletics, more age diversity, and perhaps less focus on formal student organizations/clubs, and these do obviously change the university experience. But though some of these (especially sports for competitive D1 American schools) may potentially dramatically alter the costs, I feel like these are ultimately not what is driving up the cost of education in America. (If we compare, for instance, top universities in Europe compared to the US, the price comparison just doesn't make any sense, especially when you also focus on schools that cater to "nontraditional" and commuting undergrads, who at the elite level are likely to be paying even more than a comparable traditional undergrad.) The more general issue/difference at hand is a system which supports exorbitant student loans rather than subsidizing universities to be affordable, as is done in Europe.

But at the same time, how are elite schools motivated to provide greater value? They know that they can charge whatever they want and still get more applications than they'll accept. It's not like the demand is drying up because they're expensive or the quality of education isn't as high as it should be. As with most things, they do what they do because they can.

Maybe I'm biased and just think the average American doesn't care much about education, to the point that I feel like most other cultures care more about it. Some people in America do, no doubt, but I feel like when most students get out of high school they're looking to get away from home and have an experience rather than the best place to get an affordable education. I remember receiving all sorts of things from college when I was a high school senior, and they all emphasized the experience. They know what sells. As to why that is...well, without going back into the specifics of the general education system, I think the K-12 education system is a complete and utter failure that doesn't teach students the things they need, doesn't usually adequately prepare them for college, wastes students time with things they aren't going to need, and turns students against education in general by making it as tedious, boring, and stressful as possible. The system has trained generations of students to dread learning, and as a result a lot of people look for fun over education.

I just can't believe that Europe (or just about anywhere) is as bad or worse than that. I just can't.

But that too is tied to education funding. The US has a horrible system where local property taxes are used to fund public schools, which means that the people who need education the most are the ones receiving the least. Teachers aren't paid enough to help themselves let alone their students. Combine that with an insanely capitalistic mindset that traces back to the ideas of early monied interests that public education should be training the lower class to be good workers, and of course that's going to come into conflict with the higher ideal of education.

On the flip side, there's also a very different picture, depending on what we mean when we're talking about elite schools. There are certainly also many classes of Americans who absolutely treasure (or less charitably, fetishize) quality higher education. Elite institutions know this and capitalize on this belief that only they can provide that. (And the low-income students who do make it against all odds are paraded around as proof of diversity while their actual needs, from academic and career support to simply being able to navigate socially and financially with their peers, are ignored.) Because of unequal and inadequate public funding, an off-hands approach to regulating private schools, and other similar issues, those preconceptions are allowed to proliferate and feed back into an unequal and absurdly priced system.

It absolutely is the case that the US education system is incredibly flawed, and that becomes increasingly clear when stacking up against other systems. (That's not to say that other systems don't have their own issues - most Asian education systems are far more stressful and place everything into a single university entrance exam, for instance. And to massively oversimplify, the German education system basically makes kids choose their education/career track after 4th grade, with vastly different schooling afterward, which has its merits but is also kinda extreme.) But I think the systemic and institutional reasons behind these issues/differences are more fundamental and general, rather than individuals' cultural attitudes.