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I see, I see

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I think I'll throw my vote on the Tau pile as well. For POE reasons.

Vote: Taulover

I'm fairly convinced that Vro, Nyght and Sapph are town. Which leaves Taulover, BSR, TGN, and Anubhav I believe. Most of them I feel rather null about, although Anubhav feels slightly scummy based on the Hydra derp from last day phase. If Taulover is the wagon for the day, I'll get in on that.

Not trying to be ultradefensive , but was TGN not a derp in most of his games? He was lynched , but flipped town. Minish mixed up all the events in the AoT game , flipped town. Also I am playing tow games , one in MU , so mixing up events is not a scum tendency. I asked for a seer scan D1 , D2 and did the same stuff not knowing that the seer was a goner yesterday. Had Doc been town , I potentially see you piling on Vro .

Key phrase: "had Doc been town." Scum are perfectly capable of derping, because people derp. I believe Legacy and Nyght for instance didn't actually understand why Legacy was cleared in AoT, everyone derped by not noticing that the defender night list had a mistake, including myself. Scum are also capable of faking derps in order to be cleared by town.

Also recall how ENE pushed on Lau and LoS. I tunneled LAu , came to the conclusion that he was Too Wolfy to be Wolf. Never hit LoS. One of the first thing Vro does here after subbing in for ENE, is simply saying ENE is different and Vro must not be judged on ENE's work . There is no possible way that we mix Vro and ENE up , overlap the acts of two different players, and if that is not overdefensiveness then what is ? It genuinely felt like a scum's defense. I guess he just took Doc out to buy himself extra points as town, I see it as a bus, and a Doc probably wanted to sacrifice himself , to clear Vro's path, get placed into town core . Vro was fresher than most , town leader resigned , we lost a defender, and weighing all of it , it feels like Doc wanted to take the oppurtunity and frame one of the humans of his team as a town hero.

Vote:Vroendal

I have no idea what BSR is upto. If he turns out as wolf , I will not be dissatisfied for having not figured that out , coz he hardly spoke (and I hardly read)

What you'll find I actually said was "I have no defense for any posts or actions made by ENE, as I am not ENE and do not speak for him. Therefore, I'm just going to try to make the most of my own posts." ENE and I are different, but I never said I shouldn't be judged from his actions. I just couldn't defend them, because they weren't my actions and it wasn't my thoughts that motivated them. I legitimately do not understand your point about overdefensiveness. Honestly, the better play if both Doc and I were humans would be for Doc or the other human to bus ME and be town-cleared for hopefully the rest of the game, there was no real benefit for me taking out a fellow human who was already deep in the town reads. You say you thought Lau was too humany to be a human, when Lau flipped town after saying explicitly that I am also town, in bold, what did you think?

(Also where's the spoiler button in this? Do I just have to type the bracketed command now?)

After the Youtube button. Last button on the bottom row.

Response to tau

Ohh... I was unaware that you've set up pings to your email tau, I shall refrain from continuing with that then. I did it because I considered that you would only see notifications on the forum at the times when you were willing to check the forum either for Werewolf, Minecraft, or etc, I didn't know that it might interfere with your personal life.

I'm in a difficult situation where I'm slightly more confident that I'll find at least one human among the players who have been inactive, but I'm unsure if their inactivity is the result of specifically lying low or not. Even if it's as a result of in real life situations, not feeling able to push to win or solve the game out of sensitivity is a bit unfortunate for all involved. If I continue leaving players alone and one turns out to be a human, they'll just kill the more active players and win through apathy, making any efforts I or other have already made pointless.

I understand your takes on those four. I'm still debating whether Anubhav's push against me actually makes him suspicious or not. I feel like the futility of such a push would be more clear to a human, it would be easier to just kill me at night silently. Since there was no kill last night I think it's likely that I may have been defended and that I may die tonight anyway, so what's the point of a push against me now from a human standpoint? I honestly don't think that cozmik is a human. I think Anubhav's in a questionable spot, but I'm leaning against lynching him before at least one of the other players I'm suspicious of flips.

I don't quite have the energy to debate this point right now, my last sentence relates to it though.

Yeah, at the time of this post my thoughts were all getting jumbled together in my head and they didn't come out well. Time to explain better. The players more likely than others to become a wagon since the start of the day onward were Gerrick from Legacy's list, then Sapph from Anubhav's, Hydra from Gerrick's list, then you from my list. (BSR I'm counting as too highly town-read to have been considered a good possible push from either perspective of his alignment.) With the knowledge that Gerrick was townie, Doc was a wolf, and the strong possibility that Sapph is a town, looking at the situation from Doc's perspective, he sees that beyond Gerrick being a main wagon, there are three more options, with a vote already on Sapph and Hydra. He pushes on Sapph hard for a comment he made (which I think indicates that Sapph is a townie). If Sapph is town, this action serves the double-purpose of attempting to lynch a townie Doc thought could be seen as suspicious while avoiding the main wagon on Gerrick, but also focusing more attention on a specific secondary wagon, drawing attention away from you. In regards to reads lists, Legacy listed you below Sapph in his list. Though Gerrick places you above Sapph, he said that of Hydra or you, one was likely to be scum. Hydra was a wagon, sure, but based on Lau's reads list he was unlikely to be lynched, leaving you as the only other true possibility besides Gerrick and Sapph. I think you were looking like a real possibility still and Doc's push on Sapph worked against that, which implicates you. You were also a lynch possibility clearly because both Gerrick and I felt like pushing you over anyone else at a later point. I reject your claim, I still think you were the only other real possibility besides Gerrick and Sapph, there were no far more likely wagons to occur. The options had been set. Doc's vote drew attention away from you.

One could argue that I'm fishing for reasons, I think I'm just investigating. I should have double-checked to make a clearer argument, I didn't realize that I would be gone so long before EoD and that's my own fault. However, I do think my propositions and personal PoE have substance with supporting reasoning.

Maybe, maybe not. I was of the opinion that Sapph merely wanted a second wagon based on the way he gave his argument. Sapph do you think my line of reasoning is wrong? Do you think it isn't tau, or that it's more likely to be Anubhav? If so I would like to hear so and understand why.

What do you propose that I do right now, tau? To win, I feel like I have to be doing something, you don't want me to lynch you, that works against you as either alignment, so what then? You have yet to make a vote, I'm not quite seeing desire to progress or solve the game from you, and that's mainly the reason I keep coming back to you.

So I checked and I can do this so I want to let y'all know I'm just a regular townie. As much as I enjoyed being clear it seems like we would be better served figuring out the actual defender so we can keep em safe for as long as possible. 

Anub, I would like to redirect you to the last few posts Lau made. When he makes a definitive statement that way, without any qualifiers, it's usually a mech clear, which aligns with the theory he was scanned on the first night phase. 

Oof I was really hoping that LOS would operate like Lau, but as shown from Doc's misread and Nyght's subsequent claim as non-defender, it has confirmed the alternative theory that LOS had never bothered to put his defender buddy in the town core. Great, this literally makes the only mech clear individual as Vro. That said based on the interactions thus far, hmm 

Oh, and I only voted for Anub because there's enough votes on tau to ensure a lynch and wanted to keep another person on the plate, it's 3-1 atm, but if there's any chance of a vote tie, I will switch it.  

Ohh... I was unaware that you've set up pings to your email tau, I shall refrain from continuing with that then. I did it because I considered that you would only see notifications on the forum at the times when you were willing to check the forum either for Werewolf, Minecraft, or etc, I didn't know that it might interfere with your personal life.

I thought it was just on by default, but it's been five years, idk. When the forums were still the main community hub it was good to be notified of the going-ons, and now it's still useful when I go inactive from Wintreath for a bit and need to be called back for things.

I regularly quote people, so I don't think it would be fair of me to demand others to stop doing things which would cause notifications.

Yeah, at the time of this post my thoughts were all getting jumbled together in my head and they didn't come out well. Time to explain better. The players more likely than others to become a wagon since the start of the day onward were Gerrick from Legacy's list, then Sapph from Anubhav's, Hydra from Gerrick's list, then you from my list. (BSR I'm counting as too highly town-read to have been considered a good possible push from either perspective of his alignment.) With the knowledge that Gerrick was townie, Doc was a wolf, and the strong possibility that Sapph is a town, looking at the situation from Doc's perspective, he sees that beyond Gerrick being a main wagon, there are three more options, with a vote already on Sapph and Hydra. He pushes on Sapph hard for a comment he made (which I think indicates that Sapph is a townie). If Sapph is town, this action serves the double-purpose of attempting to lynch a townie Doc thought could be seen as suspicious while avoiding the main wagon on Gerrick, but also focusing more attention on a specific secondary wagon, drawing attention away from you. In regards to reads lists, Legacy listed you below Sapph in his list. Though Gerrick places you above Sapph, he said that of Hydra or you, one was likely to be scum. Hydra was a wagon, sure, but based on Lau's reads list he was unlikely to be lynched, leaving you as the only other true possibility besides Gerrick and Sapph. I think you were looking like a real possibility still and Doc's push on Sapph worked against that, which implicates you. You were also a lynch possibility clearly because both Gerrick and I felt like pushing you over anyone else at a later point. I reject your claim, I still think you were the only other real possibility besides Gerrick and Sapph, there were no far more likely wagons to occur. The options had been set. Doc's vote drew attention away from you.

One could argue that I'm fishing for reasons, I think I'm just investigating. I should have double-checked to make a clearer argument, I didn't realize that I would be gone so long before EoD and that's my own fault. However, I do think my propositions and personal PoE have substance with supporting reasoning.

After rereading your thoughts and the relevant posts a few times, I think I understand your reasoning now. That said, it's so convoluted that I can't realistically imagine that actually going through Doc's head when he made the rather quick reaction to Sapph's outing of you/Hydra. I think that, even regardless of my alignment, drawing attention away from a potential third wagon feels like a major stretch as a likely motivation. I think it's far simpler and more likely that he just saw Sapph's behavior as something inherently suspicious which he could take advantage of. Doc's argument clearly was very persuasive, since people were repeating his talking points even after he died.

What do you propose that I do right now, tau? To win, I feel like I have to be doing something, you don't want me to lynch you, that works against you as either alignment, so what then? You have yet to make a vote, I'm not quite seeing desire to progress or solve the game from you, and that's mainly the reason I keep coming back to you.

What do you want me to do? Why would I vote when a majority of players are already on my wagon (4, including Sapph, minus inactives)? You keep insisting that I'm not contributing enough, when I'm providing all the thoughts I have, and then what thoughts I do provide are dismissed as extraneous.

Hmm. I have gotten better results from pushing tau than from when I pushed BSR. I've read back through the thread. I highly encourage everyone else to do so as well.

Nyght, what motivated your first town-core read on Doc and then your step-back a little later on where you said he was deflecting rather than directing? You never followed up on that, even when you voted him.

Based from interactions -
I don't think Nyght is paired with tau.
I don't think Anubhav is paired with Doc.
I'm no longer as sure, but I don't think TGN is paired with BSR, or tau.

I'm disliking the efforts to push Anubhav honestly, besides thinking that he's town from his behavior, I'm looking back and realizing he had quite a lot of very early interactions with Doc that don't make me think they're paired. Based on this I'm (until or unless we lynch a human with a high parity level with Anubhav) actually removing Anubhav from my PoE.

I think Doc's attack against Sapph indicated that they're not a pair. Sapph has also been making townie content in my opinion. He's not in my PoE.

cozmik is not in my PoE, I just think she's super townie, and I stand by this read. Sue me.

From my perspective, the humans could only be among Nyght, but not with tau, TGN, perhaps not with BSR, BSR, or tau.

If tau flips town, I could see Nyght/TGN, Nyght/BSR, or very rarely TGN/BSR.
If tau flips human, I could see with BSR, or very rarely TGN.

I would only be willing to switch the lynch to BSR right here just based on that alone.

Maybe you're right tau, maybe that wasn't Doc's goal there at all, maybe you're a town and I need to really consider where I went wrong after I die, likely tonight. But based on my PoE, you're still the best lynch here. I might be making the right call for the wrong reasons, but we need to make up for the Gerrick lynch and the No lynch at some point I think. Should probably be now.

I dont have much time, but I do want to just say that I dont like Vro's sudden activity levels and tunneling, and as a consequence I'm going to Vote: Vro

Wish I had more time but have been REALLY busy irl alas :/ 

Well uh, I hate to do this but blatant self-preservation vote lmao

Vote: Make Vroendal Leave

Reasoning: lynch town is worse than no lynch

Well uh, I hate to do this but blatant self-preservation vote lmao

Vote: Make Vroendal Leave

Reasoning: lynch town is worse than no lynch

That is very fair. I would do that as town too. The only problem is that if you're just a normal townie and you realize your lynch will dramatically shift town closer to winning by closing the PoE, with one of the towniest people (we don't know who yet) guaranteed to die tonight, it's actually to the benefit of your town team to let yourself be lynched here. The fact that you're voting with BSR against me at the last minute isn't helping matters either.

@Anubhav Ghosh, @Sapphiron, @TGN I require your assistance. If No Lynch happens and I die, lynch tau tomorrow.

I'll have to take a second to look back at my own posts because I don't exactly remember the deflecting/directing comment off the top of my head. I though I had said that about another player. 

As far as my town core on him, it was because his strategy at the beginning seemed quite sound and we'll thought out. I'll get back to this when I get home from work. 

May I ask what you mean about the humans only being amongst me? I'm a bit confused on your wording.

I'll have to take a second to look back at my own posts because I don't exactly remember the deflecting/directing comment off the top of my head. I though I had said that about another player.

As far as my town core on him, it was because his strategy at the beginning seemed quite sound and we'll thought out. I'll get back to this when I get home from work.

May I ask what you mean about the humans only being amongst me? I'm a bit confused on your wording.

Alright, please do check back.

Understandable.

My theory is that the human team could only realistically contain a few players based on my PoE, including you. I'm town-reading you the most out of all 4 of them, but I town-read you last game too so I'm a bit paranoid ngl. XD

I think it's most likely tau and BSR, this last-minute tie fiasco is making me think that as well.

Skip: Vote
is this legeal?

But Vro why would either of us be stupid enough to be outed as humans coincidentally? You haven't riddled me that. 

How was I in any way connected to the other wolf? And going from that thread, why are you only suddenly trying to take control of the game and narrative now? What changed to give you that sudden desire to control the narrative? 

Skip: Vote
I can skip once right?

EIWOP