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Please bear with me because I got day drunk on the Wine in Front of Me. So Sapph, the reason the seer reveal bothers me is because it's such a not town thing that you'd have to be town to do it. But at the same time it brings no advantage to town. So I'm like, what was the point? There's no clear advantage to announcing it like that. So it's like, why do it? So does that mean that you saw it as such an obvious mistake that people wouldn't think you, as a more experienced players would make that mistake as a wolf? And how exactly did you know that the humans knew at that point? Did Doc take a fall to provide a human with an ironclad defense? The ultimate distancing?


Could you perhaps explain the logic behind why you did that? Because I've seen you say that it isn't sus. But not why you did it to begin with. It would do wonders to clear you from my list. Thank you.

Once again, I have to reiterate that the Seer reveal is not too Wolf to be Wolf. That is literally Doc’s train of thought and he has already been exposed as a scum, and thereby his intentions are impure.

My intention at that time is one of distinct frustration at the utter lack of activity and by extension, interest left in the remaining players to solve the game after Lau and LOS left. As such, the best way to do so is to openly analyse Lau and LOS last words, seeing both are confirmed Town, with Lau clearly a Seer scan on first night and LOS one of the defenders. By putting this analysis and reveal out into the open, I want to secure at least 2 Town cores - Hydra, Vro - with the potential third defender being Doc (turns out LOS misread, and him putting him there is not mech clear but inference clear) or you. This is while focusing our remaining attention on the rest. I would also want to direct the remaining defender’s attention to defend Hydra, at the bare minimum secure us one more scan which is Doc and that is to our advantage. On the most manifestly observable level, it returned some degree of activity back into this game, and we managed to find Doc is a human.

Thank you for explaining your thought process to me. I'm still picking up bits and pieces here and there, so things like this aren't immediately obvious. I've only played one game before this and my strategy was "say as little as possible." 
My apologies if I came off as accusatory or aggressive. 

I've got three towncore on my list at the moment, being Myself, Sapph, and Vro. Most other players are null besides Anub and Tau.

So, I'm now leaning towards Tau but I would like to hear a bit more from some others before I commit to a vote. 

Spoiler

Is this "later" enough so that you're able to try again or not yet, @taulover?

Well, clearly not.

Got my second dose today, so I was trying to get as much homework done before the side effects kick in (which considering how chilly I feel despite the current temperature in the room, is probably about now).

I don't appreciate the selective quoting - I didn't say I would be able to try again later, only if I have time. In this case my time actually has run out, and my body is seriously just telling me to curl up and go to sleep, but since I'm already here I might as well give it a shot. Just don't expect my thoughts to be as coherent as usual.

That made absolutely no sense, Anub you are completely off. I am literally the one who encouraged Vro to state the seer read ytd, and literally the first one out of seer squad that encouraged the vote afterwards. Honestly if Anub didn’t human, idk who can be. I am willing to tunnel on him

To be honest, Anubhav's behavior now is actually what's putting me off wanting to vote him immediately. Does a human make these actions in this way? I feel like a wolf out of everyone in the game would have the most practical knowledge of the situation, and would know how to blend in a lot better. That being said if several other possibilities are exhausted I will vote Anubhav. Are Anubhav's interactions regarding Doc indicative that they're scum buddies or not? I've been trying to determine that, and have not had any clear insights. Perhaps you would have a better perspective, Sapph.

Hypothetically speaking, if there were a Human who was pretty much inactive until after the seer army's role reveal of Doc, the logical thing to do certainly would be to try to build up the counterwagon as a last-ditch effort. And the only way to do that at that point would be to feign ignorance of the whole situation. Then, the only way for that to be convincing would be to double down on that effort.

In Anub's case, I'm not quite convinced that that is what's going on here, main reason being that he switched votes to Sapph afterwards rather than staying on the main counterwagon of TGN. But that switch could also be an attempt to course-correct/avoid suspicion after realizing that the counterwagon was not going to feasibly tie the Doc votes. Not sure, I haven't looked closely enough at the votes to verify what was going on there.

This is my second game of werewolf. At least in terms of forum werewolf.

Oh huh, you gave off much more experienced vibes than that, my bad. I think I saw you say that you have experience with Werewolf/Mafia in general though? I sorta assumed that you might be one of those Discord Mafia players like LoS and ENE. Or is it more just casual in-person Mafia experience?

I’ve played a lot of the card version.

To clarify - like the playing cards version of mafia, or Ultimate Werewolf, or One Night?

And for some reason I can't remember at the time Taul was ringing a bell. I think it had something to do with being really on board with Doc's no lynch plan. I do remember them saying it was because their a more old school player but that could easily be a cover that was suggested for them.

Not sure what you mean by this. I posted what I think was a fair analysis of No Lynch on the first day, because it was the main wagon at the time and nobody else was taking it seriously. I suggested that perhaps the newcomers from external Mafia forums have a stronger and perhaps inaccurate bias against No Lynch, because I was struggling to come up with good logical counterarguments against No Lynch. However, I was ultimately hesitant to go against the common wisdom and did not vote No Lynch. The old-school connection was important and relevant to those thoughts because, other than Doc, the one other person who had voted No Lynch at the time (IIRC) was Hydra.

Idk why people are buying into Doc’s argument that the Seer reveal is human behaviour. You do know that those humans already figured it out when I posted it, since Doc was on the exact same wavelength. My reveal secures 2-3 town cores that no one will ever vote against, as well as direct the defender in the right direction in case it wasn’t clear. I stand by my decision that the reveal was the right choice.

Also, Hydra already died. Idk if you haven’t been reading the thread, or you attempting a fake derp clear, Anub.

Please bear with me because I got day drunk on the Wine in Front of Me. So Sapph, the reason the seer reveal bothers me is because it's such a not town thing that you'd have to be town to do it. But at the same time it brings no advantage to town. So I'm like, what was the point? There's no clear advantage to announcing it like that. So it's like, why do it? So does that mean that you saw it as such an obvious mistake that people wouldn't think you, as a more experienced players would make that mistake as a wolf? And how exactly did you know that the humans knew at that point? Did Doc take a fall to provide a human with an ironclad defense? The ultimate distancing?

Hasn't Sapph's seer army reveal already paid dividends? Without it, I doubt we would have had enough confidence in Vro to trust his claim about Doc, and the last day phase would've been another mislynch.

I didn't really like it at first either, but ended up reading Sapph as villager because (I thought) it didn't offer the villagers any advantage, it seemed actively disadvantageous for a Human to do. And regardless, I don't think you can argue with the results.

Anyone who is quoted gets a notification, or at least I do when I'm quoted.

There's an option to turn of PM/email notifications, but that does it for both mentions and quotes I think.

The one where you pick a card, and that card is your role. Everyone closes their eyes for night and the narrator calls on the different power roles and they silently make their decisions. During day phase you argue and lie and lynch and do the whole mafia thing.

I think I'll throw my vote on the Tau pile as well. For POE reasons.

Vote: Taulover

I'm fairly convinced that Vro, Nyght and Sapph are town. Which leaves Taulover, BSR, TGN, and Anubhav I believe. Most of them I feel rather null about, although Anubhav feels slightly scummy based on the Hydra derp from last day phase. If Taulover is the wagon for the day, I'll get in on that.

For the time being, I would like to have 2 wagons ready so

Vote: Anub

Also Vro would you like to explain further - how you changed from leaning against Anub and TGN to voting for tau currently?

I think I'll throw my vote on the Tau pile as well. For POE reasons.

Vote: Taulover

I'm fairly convinced that Vro, Nyght and Sapph are town. Which leaves Taulover, BSR, TGN, and Anubhav I believe. Most of them I feel rather null about, although Anubhav feels slightly scummy based on the Hydra derp from last day phase. If Taulover is the wagon for the day, I'll get in on that.

Not trying to be ultradefensive , but was TGN not a derp in most of his games? He was lynched , but flipped town. Minish mixed up all the events in the AoT game , flipped town. Also I am playing tow games , one in MU , so mixing up events is not a scum tendency. I asked for a seer scan D1 , D2 and did the same stuff not knowing that the seer was a goner yesterday. Had Doc been town , I potentially see you piling on Vro . 

Also recall how ENE pushed on Lau and LoS. I tunneled LAu , came to the conclusion that he was Too Wolfy to be Wolf. Never hit LoS. One of the first thing Vro does here after subbing in for ENE, is simply saying ENE is different and Vro must not be judged on ENE's work . There is no possible way that we mix Vro and ENE up , overlap the acts of two different players, and if that is not overdefensiveness then what is ? It genuinely felt like a scum's defense. I guess he just took Doc out to buy himself extra points as town, I see it as a bus, and a Doc probably wanted to sacrifice himself , to clear Vro's path, get placed into town core . Vro was fresher than most , town leader resigned , we lost a defender, and weighing all of it , it feels like Doc wanted to take the oppurtunity and frame one of the humans of his team as a town hero.

Vote:Vroendal

I have no idea what BSR is upto. If he turns out as wolf , I will not be dissatisfied for having not figured that out , coz he hardly spoke (and I hardly read)

Please bear with me because I got day drunk on the Wine in Front of Me. So Sapph, the reason the seer reveal bothers me is because it's such a not town thing that you'd have to be town to do it. But at the same time it brings no advantage to town. So I'm like, what was the point? There's no clear advantage to announcing it like that. So it's like, why do it? So does that mean that you saw it as such an obvious mistake that people wouldn't think you, as a more experienced players would make that mistake as a wolf? And how exactly did you know that the humans knew at that point? Did Doc take a fall to provide a human with an ironclad defense? The ultimate distancing?


Could you perhaps explain the logic behind why you did that? Because I've seen you say that it isn't sus. But not why you did it to begin with. It would do wonders to clear you from my list. Thank you.

Once again, I have to reiterate that the Seer reveal is not too Wolf to be Wolf. That is literally Doc’s train of thought and he has already been exposed as a scum, and thereby his intentions are impure.

My intention at that time is one of distinct frustration at the utter lack of activity and by extension, interest left in the remaining players to solve the game after Lau and LOS left. As such, the best way to do so is to openly analyse Lau and LOS last words, seeing both are confirmed Town, with Lau clearly a Seer scan on first night and LOS one of the defenders. By putting this analysis and reveal out into the open, I want to secure at least 2 Town cores - Hydra, Vro - with the potential third defender being Doc (turns out LOS misread, and him putting him there is not mech clear but inference clear) or you. This is while focusing our remaining attention on the rest. I would also want to direct the remaining defender’s attention to defend Hydra, at the bare minimum secure us one more scan which is Doc and that is to our advantage. On the most manifestly observable level, it returned some degree of activity back into this game, and we managed to find Doc is a human.

Thank you for explaining your thought process to me. I'm still picking up bits and pieces here and there, so things like this aren't immediately obvious. I've only played one game before this and my strategy was "say as little as possible."
My apologies if I came off as accusatory or aggressive.

I've got three towncore on my list at the moment, being Myself, Sapph, and Vro. Most other players are null besides Anub and Tau.

So, I'm now leaning towards Tau but I would like to hear a bit more from some others before I commit to a vote.

Is that a WIFOM? @Sapphiron @BSR

For the time being, I would like to have 2 wagons ready so

Vote: Anub

Also Vro would you like to explain further - how you changed from leaning against Anub and TGN to voting for tau currently?

Sapph... Sapph please don't split the wagons. Frankly, I think tau should have been lynched instead of Gerrick, and if y'all let him escape for no good reason again and he turns out to be a human I will be sad. You had talked earlier about forming a town core slate that would vote as a team, whatever happened to that? If we lynch tau here, I may be wrong but at least we'll KNOW. Let's not risk a tie again, please. tau has always been at the bottom of my reads list, I was just trying to figure out who the other human might be. TGN I'm discounting for now because Doc and tau tried to push him in the phase Doc was lynched in, Anubhav I'm split upon, but I would vastly prefer to lynch tau first because I still see a world where Anubhav is a misguided townie. If tau is a townie, then sure lynch Anubhav, be my guest. If tau is a human, lynch BSR first, then Anubhav.

tau is in everyone's PoE, I don't know why we wouldn't get him out here, at least to know for sure. I feel like I've been worked against by everyone. Lynching Gerrick instead of tau, forming a bunch of different vanity wagons when I and the Seer vote Doc, making a tie for No Lynch yesterday... I can understand why for the most part I think, but it wouldn't have been this way if the townies had all decided to follow Lau's town core together.

Vote Tau

I think I'll throw my vote on the Tau pile as well. For POE reasons.

Vote: Taulover

I'm fairly convinced that Vro, Nyght and Sapph are town. Which leaves Taulover, BSR, TGN, and Anubhav I believe. Most of them I feel rather null about, although Anubhav feels slightly scummy based on the Hydra derp from last day phase. If Taulover is the wagon for the day, I'll get in on that.

Not trying to be ultradefensive , but was TGN not a derp in most of his games? He was lynched , but flipped town. Minish mixed up all the events in the AoT game , flipped town. Also I am playing tow games , one in MU , so mixing up events is not a scum tendency. I asked for a seer scan D1 , D2 and did the same stuff not knowing that the seer was a goner yesterday. Had Doc been town , I potentially see you piling on Vro .

Key phrase: "had Doc been town." Scum are perfectly capable of derping, because people derp. I believe Legacy and Nyght for instance didn't actually understand why Legacy was cleared in AoT, everyone derped by not noticing that the defender night list had a mistake, including myself. Scum are also capable of faking derps in order to be cleared by town.

Also recall how ENE pushed on Lau and LoS. I tunneled LAu , came to the conclusion that he was Too Wolfy to be Wolf. Never hit LoS. One of the first thing Vro does here after subbing in for ENE, is simply saying ENE is different and Vro must not be judged on ENE's work . There is no possible way that we mix Vro and ENE up , overlap the acts of two different players, and if that is not overdefensiveness then what is ? It genuinely felt like a scum's defense. I guess he just took Doc out to buy himself extra points as town, I see it as a bus, and a Doc probably wanted to sacrifice himself , to clear Vro's path, get placed into town core . Vro was fresher than most , town leader resigned , we lost a defender, and weighing all of it , it feels like Doc wanted to take the oppurtunity and frame one of the humans of his team as a town hero.

Vote:Vroendal

I have no idea what BSR is upto. If he turns out as wolf , I will not be dissatisfied for having not figured that out , coz he hardly spoke (and I hardly read)

What you'll find I actually said was "I have no defense for any posts or actions made by ENE, as I am not ENE and do not speak for him. Therefore, I'm just going to try to make the most of my own posts." ENE and I are different, but I never said I shouldn't be judged from his actions. I just couldn't defend them, because they weren't my actions and it wasn't my thoughts that motivated them. I legitimately do not understand your point about overdefensiveness. Honestly, the better play if both Doc and I were humans would be for Doc or the other human to bus ME and be town-cleared for hopefully the rest of the game, there was no real benefit for me taking out a fellow human who was already deep in the town reads. You say you thought Lau was too humany to be a human, when Lau flipped town after saying explicitly that I am also town, in bold, what did you think?

(Also where's the spoiler button in this? Do I just have to type the bracketed command now?)

Doc and BSR* tau actually pushed cozmik, my mistake.

@cozmikrae, do you think that Nyght is the defender? Respond yes or no.

No

Fair. My selective quoting was made under the assumption that it would only matter if you did have time to read and respond, I didn't mean for it to annoy you.

Yeah see, I didn't have the time or energy, but the email pings mean I see it anyway, so it draws me in regardless even if I don't want it to.

The issue tau is that I think that unless you can provide us with a good alternative, we're (or at least I'm) going to be hung up on you until we either find the two humans or you flip (assuming you're town). I understand you say you are not getting any human reads, but if you are lynched today and you flip town, where would you like us to look next, and why? I'll accept gut reasoning as an answer for why, but if you convince me to go after someone else using more than that, that would be great. I'm willing to be convinced.

I've given my thoughts before. They remain largely the same, but reiterating with some updated info.

You (Vro) are mechanically cleared as far as I can tell. So is Nyght, I went back and reviewed Sapph's argument and LoS' post and it seems convincing to me for Nyght to be defender. Sapph's behavior makes me think he is a villager.

That leaves cozmik, Anubhav, Robin, TGN. Thoughts:

TGN still confuses me. And has been quiet recently so my thoughts haven't developed. As per usual, I don't think attacking inactive people for being inactive is very useful in a game that's supposed to be chill.

Robin has also been quiet. He seems legitimately busy to me; I was on the Minecraft server on Sunday (I think) and checked his activity and he hasn't been online in like a week despite stating his intent to return and start work on the Valeria project around the time this Werewolf game started.

This leaves cozmik and Anubhav. I have expressed my concerns about both of them already, in particular how their actions seem to have the effect of muddying the picture about what we already know mechanically. But at the same time it could be legitimate confusion (though the longer it goes on, e.g. Anub's posts today, the harder I find that to believe). So I will only add now that to me, Anub's consistent pushing against Vro could potentially be an attempt to drive suspicion against the known town leader.

You've been a consistent Null read for many people, making posts (including this last one) that although are good, don't really lead us anywhere, or states a take on the style.

Or, if they do lead us anywhere they lead us to a place we've either already reached, or could reach by ourselves. Basically to me it feels like you're making safe posts instead of townie posts.

I'm sorry what? I don't have any more information than any of the rest of us do. Of course my posts can only provide thoughts that anyone else could also theoretically provide. This seems like a meaningless claim, cast in a way that's trying to make it sound suspicious.

It could be argued that Doc was trying to save you for pushing on Sapph without making himself more obvious by pushing Gerrick.

At the time of Doc's vote I guess he wouldn't really be trying to save you, but as I'm operating on the assumption that Sapph is town, the fact that Doc attacked only Sapph could indicate that he was leading the attention away from you, who was likely to become the only counter-wagon next to Gerrick.

I was confused because I didn't know/remember what event you were referring to, so I had to look back at the posts. Yes, Doc did in fact vote for Sapph before literally anyone was pushing against me (and he didn't post afterward). Based on the existing read lists at the time, there were other far more likely wagons to occur. Much as with the previous quote, I think you're trying to fish for reasons to vote for me. It looks that might be warping your memory of what had happened in a way that fits with the narrative you've constructed in your head. Which you're then sticking to even when you yourself go back and check and realize that the memory was wrong.

The one where you pick a card, and that card is your role. Everyone closes their eyes for night and the narrator calls on the different power roles and they silently make their decisions. During day phase you argue and lie and lynch and do the whole mafia thing.

One Night? The one with only one night and then one day/vote?

I tried bringing ONUW to Wintreath once. People didn't take to it, and it made me realize how fundamentally different of a game it was. If you're talking about One Night, then I think some of your initial confusion may be more understandable.

You had talked earlier about forming a town core slate that would vote as a team, whatever happened to that?

Sapph talked about following the 2-3 people mechanically cleared by the seer. Unfortunately it looks like there's only one person, i.e. you, and perhaps he too is concerned that the line of reasoning that you're following isn't right.

Spoiler

Fair. My selective quoting was made under the assumption that it would only matter if you did have time to read and respond, I didn't mean for it to annoy you.

Yeah see, I didn't have the time or energy, but the email pings mean I see it anyway, so it draws me in regardless even if I don't want it to.

The issue tau is that I think that unless you can provide us with a good alternative, we're (or at least I'm) going to be hung up on you until we either find the two humans or you flip (assuming you're town). I understand you say you are not getting any human reads, but if you are lynched today and you flip town, where would you like us to look next, and why? I'll accept gut reasoning as an answer for why, but if you convince me to go after someone else using more than that, that would be great. I'm willing to be convinced.

I've given my thoughts before. They remain largely the same, but reiterating with some updated info.

You (Vro) are mechanically cleared as far as I can tell. So is Nyght, I went back and reviewed Sapph's argument and LoS' post and it seems convincing to me for Nyght to be defender. Sapph's behavior makes me think he is a villager.

That leaves cozmik, Anubhav, Robin, TGN. Thoughts:

TGN still confuses me. And has been quiet recently so my thoughts haven't developed. As per usual, I don't think attacking inactive people for being inactive is very useful in a game that's supposed to be chill.

Robin has also been quiet. He seems legitimately busy to me; I was on the Minecraft server on Sunday (I think) and checked his activity and he hasn't been online in like a week despite stating his intent to return and start work on the Valeria project around the time this Werewolf game started.

This leaves cozmik and Anubhav. I have expressed my concerns about both of them already, in particular how their actions seem to have the effect of muddying the picture about what we already know mechanically. But at the same time it could be legitimate confusion (though the longer it goes on, e.g. Anub's posts today, the harder I find that to believe). So I will only add now that to me, Anub's consistent pushing against Vro could potentially be an attempt to drive suspicion against the known town leader.

You've been a consistent Null read for many people, making posts (including this last one) that although are good, don't really lead us anywhere, or states a take on the style.

Or, if they do lead us anywhere they lead us to a place we've either already reached, or could reach by ourselves. Basically to me it feels like you're making safe posts instead of townie posts.

I'm sorry what? I don't have any more information than any of the rest of us do. Of course my posts can only provide thoughts that anyone else could also theoretically provide. This seems like a meaningless claim, cast in a way that's trying to make it sound suspicious.

It could be argued that Doc was trying to save you for pushing on Sapph without making himself more obvious by pushing Gerrick.

At the time of Doc's vote I guess he wouldn't really be trying to save you, but as I'm operating on the assumption that Sapph is town, the fact that Doc attacked only Sapph could indicate that he was leading the attention away from you, who was likely to become the only counter-wagon next to Gerrick.

I was confused because I didn't know/remember what event you were referring to, so I had to look back at the posts. Yes, Doc did in fact vote for Sapph before literally anyone was pushing against me (and he didn't post afterward). Based on the existing read lists at the time, there were other far more likely wagons to occur. Much as with the previous quote, I think you're trying to fish for reasons to vote for me. It looks that might be warping your memory of what had happened in a way that fits with the narrative you've constructed in your head. Which you're then sticking to even when you yourself go back and check and realize that the memory was wrong.

The one where you pick a card, and that card is your role. Everyone closes their eyes for night and the narrator calls on the different power roles and they silently make their decisions. During day phase you argue and lie and lynch and do the whole mafia thing.

One Night? The one with only one night and then one day/vote?

I tried bringing ONUW to Wintreath once. People didn't take to it, and it made me realize how fundamentally different of a game it was. If you're talking about One Night, then I think some of your initial confusion may be more understandable.

You had talked earlier about forming a town core slate that would vote as a team, whatever happened to that?

Sapph talked about following the 2-3 people mechanically cleared by the seer. Unfortunately it looks like there's only one person, i.e. you, and perhaps he too is concerned that the line of reasoning that you're following isn't right.

2 things:

No not 1night. Regular, day/night phases til one team wins. And most of my experience with that was about 10 years ago. This is a fundamentally different game from in person Mafia. Meta is much harder to gather and there's no body language to judge.

Can someone explain how Nyght is mechanically cleared? I think I missed that concept.

Can someone explain how Nyght is mechanically cleared? I think I missed that concept.

It's similar to but perhaps not as convincing as the argument for Vro/Hydra as seer army. I think Sapph's line of reasoning was that LoS put Nyght, Lau, and Doc as town core his final readlist. IIRC, people early on were saying that defenders should put each other in their town cores. Lau was a normal villager, Doc was a Human, so by process of elimination Nyght is probably defender.