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[Do you want to start lynching by majority this round?]

Do you want to start lynching by majority this round?

Yes

7 (87.5%)

No

1 (12.5%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Voting closed: February 24, 2021, 10:57:44 AM

@Imaginative Kane

I can understand why you feel a bit iffy of me seeing as you played scum with me. However, Ruguo has played with me quite a bit and he even admits himself it's hard to tell between my scum and town play. The game that me and you were scum in together, even the others from zd who I've played with a ton were town reading me, so during that game you were pretty much seeing town me.

I do appreciate the reads though. Can you explain your read on Ruguo? He's had quite a bit of posts so far, so a bit to go off of.

I did understand where you were coming from hence my admittance that the plan had flaws. What I would want from town though is to engage on the idea and either explain why it doesn't work at all or to improve upon it. That was mostly my issue with how you went about it. I'll give a small hint into my scum vs town play in regards to this situation. As scum I will think through any possible ramifications of a plan I propose to make sure it only gets me town cred and not suspicion. I think you can see the difference from last game to this one. Where I pushed my own scumbud because of his bad plan, I pushed Rubik because of his plan, and then I took Rubik's plan and actually twisted it to look better but actually be helpful to me as mafia as well.

My original plan wasn't thoroughly thought through in its entirety because town shouldn't feel the need to hold back on things they find helpful, and I had just woken up at the time I posted it.

Well, this does make me feel a little better. However, it should be seen that from my point of view I engaged as quickly as possible when the idea was still in its raw form, and seemed mostly as a detriment to town in its entirety. I was still trying to see the good parts in it, I wasn't completely trying to bash it as is evidenced by specifically calling it a "not good" idea instead of a "bad" idea. Your point about thinking through the ramifications is a very good one, I would expect scum you to more fully think it through. My only problem with that is it brings up a question of where do I draw the line between "oh, she's town because she didn't think it all through" and "this is scum who just woke up and decided to make a play?" I don't think anyone else was noticing its flaws, which is a little worrying. I'm not sure why you wouldn't just ask for everyone to make a reads list, or even just of all of their town leans. Have you ever been in a situation where someone has asked for only the top town reads for that reason?

I did understand where you were coming from hence my admittance that the plan had flaws. What I would want from town though is to engage on the idea and either explain why it doesn't work at all or to improve upon it. That was mostly my issue with how you went about it. I'll give a small hint into my scum vs town play in regards to this situation. As scum I will think through any possible ramifications of a plan I propose to make sure it only gets me town cred and not suspicion. I think you can see the difference from last game to this one. Where I pushed my own scumbud because of his bad plan, I pushed Rubik because of his plan, and then I took Rubik's plan and actually twisted it to look better but actually be helpful to me as mafia as well.

My original plan wasn't thoroughly thought through in its entirety because town shouldn't feel the need to hold back on things they find helpful, and I had just woken up at the time I posted it.

Well, this does make me feel a little better. However, it should be seen that from my point of view I engaged as quickly as possible when the idea was still in its raw form, and seemed mostly as a detriment to town in its entirety. I was still trying to see the good parts in it, I wasn't completely trying to bash it as is evidenced by specifically calling it a "not good" idea instead of a "bad" idea. Your point about thinking through the ramifications is a very good one, I would expect scum you to more fully think it through. My only problem with that is it brings up a question of where do I draw the line between "oh, she's town because she didn't think it all through" and "this is scum who just woke up and decided to make a play?" I don't think anyone else was noticing its flaws, which is a little worrying. I'm not sure why you wouldn't just ask for everyone to make a reads list, or even just of all of their town leans. Have you ever been in a situation where someone has asked for only the top town reads for that reason?

I think you draw the line at the fact that as scum I wouldn't post in that half asleep/half awake state in the first place. Haha. It wasn't like I was scum in a hurry. It's more that I was town just posting what was on my mind.


Generally people don't ask at all on zd because it's just well known that you hide stuff like that in reads lists. But there are new people here and y'all do things different so I figured it was harder to get people to make full reads lists than to just state their town reads. Mostly didn't give it much thought because I thought in a game with what 24 people (don't recall at the momebt moment how many there are), the fact that 4 scum and a doctor all decided on the same target n1 meant the target was someone very town read.

I think you draw the line at the fact that as scum I wouldn't post in that half asleep/half awake state in the first place. Haha. It wasn't like I was scum in a hurry. It's more that I was town just posting what was on my mind.


Generally people don't ask at all on zd because it's just well known that you hide stuff like that in reads lists. But there are new people here and y'all do things different so I figured it was harder to get people to make full reads lists than to just state their town reads. Mostly didn't give it much thought because I thought in a game with what 24 people (don't recall at the momebt moment how many there are), the fact that 4 scum and a doctor all decided on the same target n1 meant the target was someone very town read.

You know what that's probably fair. (I'm still not going to call the idea a good one though, despite the intentions it did have rather notable issues and I'll probably look back at who would've seen it and yet said nothing). If we proceed today with the assumption that you are town, and I am town, where does that leave you?

Just a quick note:

My sister has been having to upload a lot of data every night as part of her job, so I haven't had the bandwidth to go through the thread to track voting and reads as thoroughly as I usually do. I'm working on it right now, but it's going to be a while before I have a proper reads list since most of my suspicions are based off what I remember going on around voting, and memory is not always reliable.

I will say that, based off memory, my current reads are this:

Town Lock - none
Town Lean - Nyght, cozmik, Anubhav, Wisch, Gerrick, Kane, Moot, Michi, Vro
Mixed/Not Enough Info - Red, Ruguo, Doc, Sapph, Ogun, Minish, ENE, Alexander
Scum Lean - TGN, BSR

I would also like to reiterate that by EOD1, I was fairly convinced Michi was Town because of how his bus progressed, which likely influenced Vro's decision to unvote Michi. Vro's voting behavior seems pretty consistent as a Town who thought Michi was sus and got the bus going, only to encounter information that made him doubt Michi was actually scum while also being convinced that Hapi was town. Vro was also the other main driver of reaction tests on D1, and his pushes and responses read as Town to me.

Minish has dropped from Town Lean to Mixed due to how she cast suspicion on Vro for doing D1 reaction tests while she used the same reasoning to place me in her Town reads. It's possible/likely she's doing that as a reaction test, but combined with how she requested only the top Town read from everyone rather than a reads list, which would definitely benefit scum more than Town, and her response to Vro essentially being "I didn't think it through completely because I'm Town", I'm thinking it's more likely to be a slip. Especially considering that she used Vro's disagreement with doing a Top Town Read as further reason to push suspicion on Vro.

I don't want to push for a lynch on Minish yet even if she is scum because she is driving a lot of discussion and reads, which are useful for Town.

Doc is in the Mixed section because, of all the people who voted for Hapi, his vote was the wishy-washiest. Red voted Hapi in an OMGUS. I voted Hapi for a joke. Nyght and Cozmik voted Hapi to take out a chaotic element early to help Town. Doc, meanwhile, wanted to vote Hapi but didn't, before pulling out the wagonomics reasoning and voting Hapi anyways. Combined with how Minish also endorses the wagonomics, Doc winds up looking slightly more scummy than Town to me because of the connection to Minish.

Of those who voted for Michi D1, Minish, Ruguo, and TGN appear the most suspicious to me. Minish I've already gone into. TGN is chaotic, and I'm seeing some repeating patterns from the last game with regards to which posts he likes, but it could also be TGN trolling me because he knows I'm watching. Ruguo is looking less scummy as D2 goes on, but I'm not ready to rule them out just yet.

Red, I'm honestly torn on. Based off his actions, I would read him as more Town leaning, although some of his reactions veer closer to being scummy. However, if Minish is scum, the odds of Red also being scum become much higher. I need to go through the voting history to compile the link I remember spotting, so... *leaves off with vague reasoning for now*

Just re-read the first 15 pages, will re-read the rest another day

I don't see Vro's final flip-flop of votes away from Michi to create a tie with Hapi right at the end of D1 phase as indicative of scummy behaviour, it's way more convenient to stick to it and just go along with "nobody would have known Michi is a Town" if Michi flips Town, not to mention the town cred if Michi flips scum.

Meanwhile, TGN's persistent off-tangent posts reminds me of my old scum strategy of never contributing anything of substance, and also the previous game where TGN managed to maintain a chaotic floaty persona throughout the entire game, capitalising on the newbie tolerance to hide very well as a scum.

Vote: TGN

@Melehan

When did I say I suspected Vro for reaction testing?

Also, I find Vro's motivations behind how he handled my suggestion suspicious. I'm pushing him on it because he literally did what I asked after saying how bad it was and saying he wouldn't do it. If I hadn't even said anything about my idea at all then newer players could have been in the dark about how to best use information to their advantage. But scum wouldn't. So let's just use Vro's own list for example. He put only Nyght as his town read. Say I never say anything or create any discussion about this idea. And say scum targeted Nyght last night and Vro is the only one that mentions Nyght is his top town. Scum can potentially deduce that he is the doctor because it's something they're looking for. Whereas if Vro then flipped town, town may not think to go back and be like "oh maybe that's why he put him there".


Y'all do realize town plans don't always have to be the best but as long as they have a good intention behind them and generate discussion to a better idea than that's the idea right? I assure you that were I scum, I definitely would have just had everyone make a readslist of all their town reads or something more foolproof. I wouldn't have made such a dumb slip as scum, not to brag or anything.

I think you draw the line at the fact that as scum I wouldn't post in that half asleep/half awake state in the first place. Haha. It wasn't like I was scum in a hurry. It's more that I was town just posting what was on my mind.


Generally people don't ask at all on zd because it's just well known that you hide stuff like that in reads lists. But there are new people here and y'all do things different so I figured it was harder to get people to make full reads lists than to just state their town reads. Mostly didn't give it much thought because I thought in a game with what 24 people (don't recall at the momebt moment how many there are), the fact that 4 scum and a doctor all decided on the same target n1 meant the target was someone very town read.

You know what that's probably fair. (I'm still not going to call the idea a good one though, despite the intentions it did have rather notable issues and I'll probably look back at who would've seen it and yet said nothing). If we proceed today with the assumption that you are town, and I am town, where does that leave you?

Michi gives us a lot of information, but he's not even active so I'm not sure that's a good direction to go. He either gets modkilled or replaced and maybe we can get more from the replacement.


I'm still not feeling great about Ruguo. I feel like he's pushing a lot of places to see what sticks and not exactly scum hunting.

Minish's Quote

When did I say I suspected Vro for reaction testing?

Also, I find Vro's motivations behind how he handled my suggestion suspicious. I'm pushing him on it because he literally did what I asked after saying how bad it was and saying he wouldn't do it. If I hadn't even said anything about my idea at all then newer players could have been in the dark about how to best use information to their advantage. But scum wouldn't. So let's just use Vro's own list for example. He put only Nyght as his town read. Say I never say anything or create any discussion about this idea. And say scum targeted Nyght last night and Vro is the only one that mentions Nyght is his top town. Scum can potentially deduce that he is the doctor because it's something they're looking for. Whereas if Vro then flipped town, town may not think to go back and be like "oh maybe that's why he put him there".


Y'all do realize town plans don't always have to be the best but as long as they have a good intention behind them and generate discussion to a better idea than that's the idea right? I assure you that were I scum, I definitely would have just had everyone make a readslist of all their town reads or something more foolproof. I wouldn't have made such a dumb slip as scum, not to brag or anything.

I also wish to know where Minish sussed me for reaction testing, I don't recall that specifically.

I know you feel that way, I can assure you though that my reads list including a set-apart top town read was completely uninfluenced by your original presentation of your idea and my rebuttal. I shared it to show the lay of the land in my own head. It's also not that I wasn't reading other players as town, I just feel more confident on Nyght on a different level. The other people I put in my town leans are there because I still am currently considering the possibility that I may be wrong about them, Nyght I am not considering at this time.

It should  be clear from my rebuttals of your original presentation as well that my reads would have been made to be uninfluenced by it if I were the defender type in any case. I think a majority of people are considering Nyght as their top town read, including yourself at this point anyway, there isn't anything role indicative in my agreement. It would be a different case if I put say Kane and Nyght together or Kane at the top if I was the defender who protected him.

No, town ideas don't have to be perfect, but they can be submitted for discussion with that disclaimer laid out clearly instead of instantly proceeding with it. Scum wouldn't get as clear an idea from a full reads list, they would have a WIFOM situation where they can't be sure where the protected target is placed. You told everyone to lay it out very clearly. I don't think you would make that kind of slip in that way, but it still causes an observer to wonder. Is that such a crime?

@Vroendal

It's not that I think your reads list was in any way influenced by my plan. But it's the idea that you disagreed with the premise but also did it in a way that went along with the premise. Like I've said, I find it really unlikely both scum and doctor hit the same random person. So there would be a lot of overlap there. People can also have multiple top town reads as well.

You followed all of my last game right Vro?

This situation is like what Ex did when he proposed his plan and I think if you're town you can definitely see the parallels.

I glanced back at Spongebob mafia and you seemed to have taken more of a backseat approach that game. You also seemed to try to do more analytical things that weren't exactly meaningful for advancing the game but were in an attempt to look good. I'm not really seeing that here but it could be a case of more experience. I want you to be town because I think you do have a good analytical mind this game. I just think you're getting hung up on the wrong things.


Anyways...
Vote: Ruguo

Spoiler

Minish's Quote

When did I say I suspected Vro for reaction testing?

Also, I find Vro's motivations behind how he handled my suggestion suspicious. I'm pushing him on it because he literally did what I asked after saying how bad it was and saying he wouldn't do it. If I hadn't even said anything about my idea at all then newer players could have been in the dark about how to best use information to their advantage. But scum wouldn't. So let's just use Vro's own list for example. He put only Nyght as his town read. Say I never say anything or create any discussion about this idea. And say scum targeted Nyght last night and Vro is the only one that mentions Nyght is his top town. Scum can potentially deduce that he is the doctor because it's something they're looking for. Whereas if Vro then flipped town, town may not think to go back and be like "oh maybe that's why he put him there".


Y'all do realize town plans don't always have to be the best but as long as they have a good intention behind them and generate discussion to a better idea than that's the idea right? I assure you that were I scum, I definitely would have just had everyone make a readslist of all their town reads or something more foolproof. I wouldn't have made such a dumb slip as scum, not to brag or anything.

I also wish to know where Minish sussed me for reaction testing, I don't recall that specifically.

I know you feel that way, I can assure you though that my reads list including a set-apart top town read was completely uninfluenced by your original presentation of your idea and my rebuttal. I shared it to show the lay of the land in my own head. It's also not that I wasn't reading other players as town, I just feel more confident on Nyght on a different level. The other people I put in my town leans are there because I still am currently considering the possibility that I may be wrong about them, Nyght I am not considering at this time.

It should  be clear from my rebuttals of your original presentation as well that my reads would have been made to be uninfluenced by it if I were the defender type in any case. I think a majority of people are considering Nyght as their top town read, including yourself at this point anyway, there isn't anything role indicative in my agreement. It would be a different case if I put say Kane and Nyght together or Kane at the top if I was the defender who protected him.

No, town ideas don't have to be perfect, but they can be submitted for discussion with that disclaimer laid out clearly instead of instantly proceeding with it. Scum wouldn't get as clear an idea from a full reads list, they would have a WIFOM situation where they can't be sure where the protected target is placed. You told everyone to lay it out very clearly. I don't think you would make that kind of slip in that way, but it still causes an observer to wonder. Is that such a crime?

Minish didn't directly or specifically sus Vro for reaction testing, however, she did sus Vro's actions as being scummy when Vro's actions consist of pushing other players to react to things, probing other players' motivations, and providing reads as a result of meta and in-thread reactions. All of those are very Town actions, and Vro has arguably been the most active in doing all the above.

In contrast, I deliberately made myself look pretty scummy D1 (and earlier D2) by mostly memeing and tossing out bits of iffy logic to see if anyone picked up on it and objected in a Townie way, and Minish has me pretty high up on the Townie Reads Scale. On a side note, Red has been passing the Townie Tests with flying colors, and I would have placed him in Town Lean if I didn't suspect a connection between him and Minish.

I've also looked at the logic and reactions to other players' posts to find the others I placed in Town Lean, and Vro's posts have been invaluable in that.

Basically, Vro has been doing everything Minish says Town should, and yet Minish claims Vro's actions to be sus. It doesn't add up, unless Minish is a Wolf.

And for the record, since post likes have been noted, I personally like WW posts for a number of reasons, but the most common is that I find something interesting about/in them. I don't necessarily like posts just because I agree with them, and I have liked a number of posts I disagree with on some level because I spied some juicy potential info in them.

I also just got to page 10 of my tracking. We were really chatty D1.

Vro's voting and unvoting still remains questionable to me , after all , if he turns out as a scum , he will have the best knowledge about lynch consequences . Either way , I have strong gut feelings , that Vro will be lynched in all certainty . Ig everyone would be happy to remove one suspect of the list of scum than keep one hoping him to be innocent . Sorry Vro if this hurts u , but u made a bad name for urself. I hope u understand whatever the play is here , u have drawn far too much suspicion

You can't blanket my read for everything Vro has done, especially when I've explained exactly what actions I found suspicious. It's like you're disregarding why I said I found it suspicious and just acting as if all I said was that all of Vro's actions have been scummy. That's clearly not the case when I was town reading him d1. And there are only certain actions I've taken issue with.

Scum can do all the things that town do as well. In fact that's what they're supposed to do. But you have to look more than surface level and into the motivation behind them. In one of the MU Championship games that a player I'm friends with from ZD was in, and in fact Laur was also in that game, scum won because of one specific player that everyone just very highly town read. She wasn't even questioned and her actions led to her being able to take control of the game. However in our spec chat for the game she was the one I was suspecting most, because as someone removed from the stress of the game I saw her motivations behind stuff. What others were giving her town cred for, I saw reason why she was doing it to help scum out.


Also, I wouldn't say you're exactly high up on my town reads. More that I thought you had a decent enough start and are a big chaotic for me to try to get a good read with so many other players still in the game.

I'm not one that is much for reaction testing. It has its uses but it's not something I do or care about too often.


It's also interesting you say that Red is checking off all town boxes but you're not town reading him because of a possible connection to me. And part of why I had some suspicions of Vro was because of a possible connection to Michi.

You also say Red has been testing town tests with flying colors but in your previous post said some of his reactions are veering closer to scummy.

I'm also interested to know what this link between Red and myself is.