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Werewolf XXIII: A Lord of the Rings Adventure
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Sapphiron
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  • Hmm, @Sapph, would you say Vro's scum cred with you is also somewhat influenced by your new-found belief in Moot's innocence?
    To a certain extent yep, which is why I am not aggressively pushing against Vro yet
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    Laurentus
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  • My read on Minish so far: Seems very solvey, but she seemed that way to me even when we were scum together. I don't recall her putting in nearly as much effort in that turn, though. I am inclined to Town-lean.
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  • SMM I think...I played with Minish. That game was a fever dream but if I'm remembering correctly I'm inclined to agree with your read Lau
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    Laurentus
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  • Also, no, I'm not going to be lulled into accepting age and inexperience as an excuse anymore. TGN insisted that he was gut-reading Vro as scum, and stuck to that explanation when confronted by Sapph, too. Yet when I prodded a short while later, he just handwaved it away and said Michi explained it clearly in his post. And then he just flopped right off that when Vro... did something. I don't even know what I'm looking at.

    And why is Willie your best choice?
    Willie is my best choice because he wasn't mentioned as being on the chopping block for mod kills, has played WW before and is more likely to strategize on leaving me to be lynched, has been somewhat active though not posting on a region that isn't his own (cheap shot I know but I don't see who else fits better), and has offered up nothing much in terms of votes or opinions.

    Currently re-reading the thread and stumbled upon this again.

    @Wille-Harlia, can you retort to this, please?
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    Laurentus
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  • What is your reads list?
    I'm currently at work, so I really can't write out a whole thing.

    But one change I will note from my last read list is that Vro has started to lean towards scum for me. Also not completely counting out Wischland like everyone else.

    Red just posted the results as I was typing... Wow we got lucky with that one. Also, what role could possibly resurrect people?

    I am currently ISOing everyone and came across this again. Why do you not feel so hot about Wisch, Gerrick? (Don't know if your read has changed)
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    Laurentus
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  • Well, seeing as how I need to vote for either Vroendal or Michi to save myself... Hard choice, though, as both are among my scum-leans.

    Vote: Vroendal. I don't buy his reasoning on making the Dawsinian wagon a majority. Why was he more confident in making the kill for Dawsinian over the other two, or rather make a four-way tie similarly to what I had done? Also, he's playing quite similarly to the Portal Werewolf game where he was a wolf. In that game, he also voted for a random, non-wagon player in such a circumstance as this.

    Finding this in your ISO, too. And it's a good point. Didn't spot it at the time, as it was around the start of the Hapi-madness.

    @Vroendal, your response?
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    Minish
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  • And I see we've come back around to Vro in the scum lists. The thing is, his tone just sounds so pure, but his actions are telling a different story.

    @Minish, you actually offer the chance to give a perspective I have been lacking on Vro so far, since he started playing over in ZD (and I don't know if he's played on Bulba, either). Could Wolf-Vro pull this off?

    For reference, I will link to another game where he was Wolf where I placed him much more easily, but that was a while ago and I am sure he would have become a lot better by now: https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=6575.0


    Vro's actually not from ZD. The only time I've played with him (I believe) was Silver's first Portal game and that was only for a very, very short time since he subbed in before it was restarted.

    That said, he seemed to be the biggest threat to our scum team then when he subbed in, so my idea of him is he's a strong scum hunter. I don't want to put too much pressure on him for that though since it was a very limited amount I saw of him. But that is in the back of my mind while reading him this game. And I haven't quite seen that fire to find scum that I did in Portal.



    Are there any people we can seem to trust mechanically? I believe you (Laur) and Daws are two. Not sure if any other info came out d2. (There's the slight paranoia that Laur is scum and Daws is town resurrected as scum but that's a paranoia thought for later).


    I think Vro is probably the best vote today (barring anything that might have happened d2 that I haven't read yet). He has a lot of suspicion around him, he's had at least one interesting reads list, and I feel like he's had a lot of connections so that if he does flip scum it'll help narrow the others down.
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    Laurentus
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  • Okay, so I read through everyone's ISOs, and based on it, have compiled a reads list as follows. Also a note on PoEs. It stands for Process of Elimination, and the idea is that you work your way up the list when deciding who to lynch. Interesting conclusion, too: It does seem like there might be lurking Wolves, just by the sheer number of null reads. I am also counting 637 votes, here, which differs from the thread's count of 695, which worries me. If you see I've missed anyone, please let me know. I also thought I'd include post counts, as best as I can see them with that print page trick Gerrick mentioned, and include percentages of the game's posts they've contributed.

    Lock Town:

    BraveSirRobin (8, 1,26%)
    Dawsinian (10, 1,57%)
    Laurentus (229, 35,95%)

    Town Core:

    Doc (8, 1,26%) - Not afraid to stick to his guns about the Michi vote, not overly mouthy like I would expect from Scum-Doc. Potential soft-spot for new players which could prove to be a mistake. Generally quite quiet as Town, and tries to drown out all hints and clues with sheer info and chaff when scum. Seems to be on Town meta. None can say he hasn't been looking for scum.

    Gerrick (26, 4,08%) - Has had an unusually tough time of it this game. Usually gets by by lurking and observing, and making data-based reads rather than gut-reads. Usually dies quite early, too, if memory serves, so would have been a prime kill target on N1, yet didn't die. I am really struggling to make any other reads on him. He has told me before that I am always his N1 scan choice as Seer, because I lead the discussion and drive the activity, so it does make sense that he would want to save me from a potential D1 lynch. I am a bit surprised about the target he ended up choosing to make things equal and give me a better chance of surviving the D1 lynch, though. I am a bit conflicted about his reads on Vro, especially early on, because to me, it seemed there was a clear wolfiness to them. At the end of the day, I have mechanical reason to place him in my Core, but will have to continuously reevaluate. Personally, I find that he's willing to go against the grain of people's opinions about TGN and turtle to be a good sign that this is Town-Gerrick. Is actively hunting scum now that his neck's no longer on the line, too.

    Hapi (93, 14,60%) - It's fucking Hapi. She drives me insane, she's chaotic, and she lies. She's Also Town Core until Sapph says otherwise.

    Sapphiron (43, 6,75%)- Razor sharp reasoning, critical of most everyone's posts, not actively pushing an agenda like I would expect from scum-Sapph (like with poor old Syraj back in the day). Also definitely not falling into lurky Wolf-meta. One of the people I trust the most.

    Wintermoot (18, 2,83%)- If Sapph says he's Town, then I am inclined to trust until given reason not to.

    Town Leans:

    Dawcreek/Minish (13, 2,04%) - Dawcreek never posted, but his sub, Minish, can be characterised as hard-working, logical, analytical. Actively hunting scum. Currently seems to be leaning towards Vro being scum, could provide me with an interesting perspective to that.

    turtle (13, 2,04%) - Actually willing to call me out, which will always earn you some town-cred from me. I am actually town-leaning, which might make people raise their eyebrows, but his lurking feels more genuinely lost and confused, as opposed to TGN's. His admission that he doesn't know also came much later, but gonna have to agree with Gerrick here, if I were a Wolf, I would most-def have told both him and TGN to play up the innocent child schtick.

    Wischland (19, 2,98%) - I would like to place him as Core, just because of how wonderfully clear his thought process is, and generally being a very enjoyable player to play with, but that vote on Daws was… not great. Would like to see him post more often.


    Nulls:

    Eastern New England (2, 0,31%) - Has said 2 things. Need to pressurise and see how they respond.

    Flying Eagles (18, 2,83%) - His wariness of me is probably understandable, and amusingly enough actually potentially a sign of not being in the scum-chat, because if there are Wolves who know me, then they would probably have filled him in on my general play style. I don't like that he doesn't actively seem to be hunting scum, even though he's got 18 posts, which is actually a lot when so many players are so inactive. So one slightly scummy thing and one slightly townie thing puts him in my nulls.

    HumanSanity (3, 0,47%) - Claims to be busy, no reason to speculate otherwise. Has not contributed anything while here, though.

    ogunbiyi6422 (6, 0,94%) - Unclear how much WW/Mafia he's played (actually not so unclear anymore, just wasn't clear when I made this note), but not voting in the first round is almost always a bad call. NAI, but not liking it. REALLY not liking his 3rd post of the game, where he votes for Michi, in what seems like the path of least resistance. Defends himself against Wisch's reads list by referring back to his 3rd post, and says "if that doesn't tell you 'town lean' then I don't know what to tell you." Is that even a serious defense? Was the only person to call my late-phase vote switch onto Vro as sus. Gotta respect him for that. Still, too much lurking, and when posting, not doing so for good reasons, most of the time. Into nulls you go.

    Wille-Harlia (3, 0,47%) - The dreaded Wille-Harlia. Who's made 3 very uncontroversial posts, and one of them I actually found very illuminating to make sense of their fellow XKIers' tendencies. So I am incredibly confused why Vro wants to off them, rather than someone like ogunbiyi or Human Sanity. All the reasons he gave for Willie equally apply to all the quiet/busy players in the game.

    Scum leans:

    TGN (26, 4,08%)- It's hard to make a judgment when he's so new to this, but I just really don't like his play-style. I kinda get the gut-feeling that he's been given the scum role in his first ever game (and if this is the case, yeah, I would honestly have preferred that his alignment be changed post-rand, like I'll sometimes do for certain players as host), and has no idea how to play the part of a townie, so he's just looking busy. I also don't like that so many people are just going to give him a free-pass by virtue of being so new and young. Like, sorry, I'm probably a monster, but that just doesn't sit well with me.

    Scum:

    Vroendal (79, 12,40%) - Seemed lazer-focused on me from the word go. I can and should be questioned, but I am honestly still feeling like there was an ulterior motive to it. This lazer-focus can be seen the moment he asks Sapph what Sapph's opinion is of me at this very moment. I don't think this was likely to be random at all. Equally valid people to ask would have been Pengu (who knows my meta better than just about anyone), Doc or even Wintermoot. Why go straight for the person I would characterise as my arch-nemesis in Werewolf? (BTW, Sapph, no offence meant <3). This lazer-focus is also in clear view when he later probes me about what I had said once in a previous game about Gerrick's lurking. His thought-progression is riddled with contradictions when it comes to Hapi, and he doesn't showcase his progression to finding me sus at all, beyond not liking how easily I take over the thread and "how much I talk". When not lazer-focusing on me, his posts lack substance almost completely. Caused the Daws lynch at the end of the day phase but in his defence, probably not *that* sus as far as reasons go, but definitely when it comes to timing. His interrogation of Moot feels breathtakingly weak looking back. He doesn't actually address much of it to Moot, and seems desperate to move on from the topic of TGN's supposed purity, citing Doc's defense as iron-clad (you can bet how this makes me feel about TGN's status right now). Immediately starts peddling the theory after the Daws mislynch that the wolves are among the lurkers, which supports Gerrick's observation. As soon as D2 starts and Daws comes back, he begins throwing shade at me again. His first reads list does not contain any reasons for his leanings (yeah, upon reflection, that's super dodge). He also did not react well to me propping up two of my scumspects as not only town leans, but Town Core, of all things. And by "did not react well", I mean there was literally no reaction. Instead he cases me for the previous day's Daws lynch. Bit of an odd choice to find me suspicious for that, when I just did something to wildly strange. I could go on in a similar vein from here, but at this point, I am starting to think I'm just lazer-focusing on him because he lazer-focused me, and I can't be objective.

    So with all that out of the way: Vote: Vroendal
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    « Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 03:56:23 PM by Ruguo »
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    Laurentus
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  • Oh, God. @Red Mones, can you please fix the code for me when you get on again? Please and thank.
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    Laurentus
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  • And I see we've come back around to Vro in the scum lists. The thing is, his tone just sounds so pure, but his actions are telling a different story.

    @Minish, you actually offer the chance to give a perspective I have been lacking on Vro so far, since he started playing over in ZD (and I don't know if he's played on Bulba, either). Could Wolf-Vro pull this off?

    For reference, I will link to another game where he was Wolf where I placed him much more easily, but that was a while ago and I am sure he would have become a lot better by now: https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=6575.0


    Vro's actually not from ZD. The only time I've played with him (I believe) was Silver's first Portal game and that was only for a very, very short time since he subbed in before it was restarted.

    That said, he seemed to be the biggest threat to our scum team then when he subbed in, so my idea of him is he's a strong scum hunter. I don't want to put too much pressure on him for that though since it was a very limited amount I saw of him. But that is in the back of my mind while reading him this game. And I haven't quite seen that fire to find scum that I did in Portal.



    Are there any people we can seem to trust mechanically? I believe you (Laur) and Daws are two. Not sure if any other info came out d2. (There's the slight paranoia that Laur is scum and Daws is town resurrected as scum but that's a paranoia thought for later).


    I think Vro is probably the best vote today (barring anything that might have happened d2 that I haven't read yet). He has a lot of suspicion around him, he's had at least one interesting reads list, and I feel like he's had a lot of connections so that if he does flip scum it'll help narrow the others down.

    Yeah, I know he's actually from here, but I was wondering if he had perhaps played a few games with you.
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    Minish
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  • Oh wait, I think I also played a game with Vro on Bulba. Spongebob Mafia I believe. Will have to recheck that game because Vro might have been scum. And I know mafia won in a clean sweep. I feel like he was mafia and was the least suspected one. So he can definitely play a good scum game if so.


    Also, care to explain why BSR is lock town? I'm sure I'll get to it at some point in my catch up (sorry it's going slow, only try to catch up when I'm on laptop).
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    Laurentus
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  • Oh wait, I think I also played a game with Vro on Bulba. Spongebob Mafia I believe. Will have to recheck that game because Vro might have been scum. And I know mafia won in a clean sweep. I feel like he was mafia and was the least suspected one. So he can definitely play a good scum game if so.


    Also, care to explain why BSR is lock town? I'm sure I'll get to it at some point in my catch up (sorry it's going slow, only try to catch up when I'm on laptop).

    That's actually part of BSR's own ability, but it is mechanical.
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    Laurentus
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  • Also everyone, based on game mechanics, I can lock-confirm Lau is good.  Not sure if that helps people generally, but good to know either way.

    @Minish, basically something happened between me and BSR on N1, and I've had him in my core ever since.
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  • Okay, so I read through everyone's ISOs, and based on it, have compiled a reads list as follows. Also a note on PoEs. It stands for Process of Elimination, and the idea is that you work your way up the list when deciding who to lynch. Interesting conclusion, too: It does seem like there might be lurking Wolves, just by the sheer number of null reads. I am also counting 637 votes, here, which differs from the thread's count of 695, which worries me. If you see I've missed anyone, please let me know. I also thought I'd include post counts, as best as I can see them with that print page trick Gerrick mentioned, and include percentages of the game's posts they've contributed.

    Lock Town:

    BraveSirRobin (8, 1,26%)
    Dawsinian (10, 1,57%)
    Laurentus (229, 35,95%)

    Town Core:

    Doc (8, 1,26%) - Not afraid to stick to his guns about the Michi vote, not overly mouthy like I would expect from Scum-Doc. Potential soft-spot for new players which could prove to be a mistake. Generally quite quiet as Town, and tries to drown out all hints and clues with sheer info and chaff when scum. Seems to be on Town meta. None can say he hasn't been looking for scum.

    Gerrick (26, 4,08%) - Has had an unusually tough time of it this game. Usually gets by by lurking and observing, and making data-based reads rather than gut-reads. Usually dies quite early, too, if memory serves, so would have been a prime kill target on N1, yet didn't die. I am really struggling to make any other reads on him. He has told me before that I am always his N1 scan choice as Seer, because I lead the discussion and drive the activity, so it does make sense that he would want to save me from a potential D1 lynch. I am a bit surprised about the target he ended up choosing to make things equal and give me a better chance of surviving the D1 lynch, though. I am a bit conflicted about his reads on Vro, especially early on, because to me, it seemed there was a clear wolfiness to them. At the end of the day, I have mechanical reason to place him in my Core, but will have to continuously reevaluate. Personally, I find that he's willing to go against the grain of people's opinions about TGN and turtle to be a good sign that this is Town-Gerrick. Is actively hunting scum now that his neck's no longer on the line, too.

    Hapi (93, 14,60%) - It's fucking Hapi. She drives me insane, she's chaotic, and she lies. She's Also Town Core until Sapph says otherwise.

    Sapphiron (43, 6,75%)- Razor sharp reasoning, critical of most everyone's posts, not actively pushing an agenda like I would expect from scum-Sapph (like with poor old Syraj back in the day). Also definitely not falling into lurky Wolf-meta. One of the people I trust the most.

    Wintermoot (18, 2,83%)- If Sapph says he's Town, then I am inclined to trust until given reason not to.

    Town Leans:

    Dawcreek/Minish (13, 2,04%) - Dawcreek never posted, but his sub, Minish, can be characterised as hard-working, logical, analytical. Actively hunting scum. Currently seems to be leaning towards Vro being scum, could provide me with an interesting perspective to that.

    turtle (13, 2,04%) - Actually willing to call me out, which will always earn you some town-cred from me. I am actually town-leaning, which might make people raise their eyebrows, but his lurking feels more genuinely lost and confused, as opposed to TGN's. His admission that he doesn't know also came much later, but gonna have to agree with Gerrick here, if I were a Wolf, I would most-def have told both him and TGN to play up the innocent child schtick.

    Wischland (19, 2,98%) - I would like to place him as Core, just because of how wonderfully clear his thought process is, and generally being a very enjoyable player to play with, but that vote on Daws was… not great. Would like to see him post more often.


    Nulls:

    Eastern New England (2, 0,31%) - Has said 2 things. Need to pressurise and see how they respond.

    Flying Eagles (18, 2,83%) - His wariness of me is probably understandable, and amusingly enough actually potentially a sign of not being in the scum-chat, because if there are Wolves who know me, then they would probably have filled him in on my general play style. I don't like that he doesn't actively seem to be hunting scum, even though he's got 18 posts, which is actually a lot when so many players are so inactive. So one slightly scummy thing and one slightly townie thing puts him in my nulls.

    HumanSanity (3, 0,47%) - Claims to be busy, no reason to speculate otherwise. Has not contributed anything while here, though.

    ogunbiyi6422 (6, 0,94%) - Unclear how much WW/Mafia he's played (actually not so unclear anymore, just wasn't clear when I made this note), but not voting in the first round is almost always a bad call. NAI, but not liking it. REALLY not liking his 3rd post of the game, where he votes for Michi, in what seems like the path of least resistance. Defends himself against Wisch's reads list by referring back to his 3rd post, and says "if that doesn't tell you 'town lean' then I don't know what to tell you." Is that even a serious defense? Was the only person to call my late-phase vote switch onto Vro as sus. Gotta respect him for that. Still, too much lurking, and when posting, not doing so for good reasons, most of the time. Into nulls you go.

    Wille-Harlia (3, 0,47%) - The dreaded Wille-Harlia. Who's made 3 very uncontroversial posts, and one of them I actually found very illuminating to make sense of their fellow XKIers' tendencies. So I am incredibly confused why Vro wants to off them, rather than someone like ogunbiyi or Human Sanity. All the reasons he gave for Willie equally apply to all the quiet/busy players in the game.

    Scum leans:

    TGN (26, 4,08%)- It's hard to make a judgment when he's so new to this, but I just really don't like his play-style. I kinda get the gut-feeling that he's been given the scum role in his first ever game (and if this is the case, yeah, I would honestly have preferred that his alignment be changed post-rand, like I'll sometimes do for certain players as host), and has no idea how to play the part of a townie, so he's just looking busy. I also don't like that so many people are just going to give him a free-pass by virtue of being so new and young. Like, sorry, I'm probably a monster, but that just doesn't sit well with me.

    Scum:

    Vroendal (79, 12,40%) - Seemed lazer-focused on me from the word go. I can and should be questioned, but I am honestly still feeling like there was an ulterior motive to it. This lazer-focus can be seen the moment he asks Sapph what Sapph's opinion is of me at this very moment. I don't think this was likely to be random at all. Equally valid people to ask would have been Pengu (who knows my meta better than just about anyone), Doc or even Wintermoot. Why go straight for the person I would characterise as my arch-nemesis in Werewolf? (BTW, Sapph, no offence meant <3). This lazer-focus is also in clear view when he later probes me about what I had said once in a previous game about Gerrick's lurking. His thought-progression is riddled with contradictions when it comes to Hapi, and he doesn't showcase his progression to finding me sus at all, beyond not liking how easily I take over the thread and "how much I talk". When not lazer-focusing on me, his posts lack substance almost completely. Caused the Daws lynch at the end of the day phase but in his defence, probably not *that* sus as far as reasons go, but definitely when it comes to timing. His interrogation of Moot feels breathtakingly weak looking back. He doesn't actually address much of it to Moot, and seems desperate to move on from the topic of TGN's supposed purity, citing Doc's defense as iron-clad (you can bet how this makes me feel about TGN's status right now). Immediately starts peddling the theory after the Daws mislynch that the wolves are among the lurkers, which supports Gerrick's observation. As soon as D2 starts and Daws comes back, he begins throwing shade at me again. His first reads list does not contain any reasons for his leanings (yeah, upon reflection, that's super dodge). He also did not react well to me propping up two of my scumspects as not only town leans, but Town Core, of all things. And by "did not react well", I mean there was literally no reaction. Instead he cases me for the previous day's Daws lynch. Bit of an odd choice to find me suspicious for that, when I just did something to wildly strange. I could go on in a similar vein from here, but at this point, I am starting to think I'm just lazer-focusing on him because he lazer-focused me, and I can't be objective.

    So with all that out of the way: Vote: Vroendal
    this is why I like the list, very clear to me.
    « Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 03:56:59 PM by Ruguo »
    I’m probably on NS lol
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    Minish
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  • Also everyone, based on game mechanics, I can lock-confirm Lau is good.  Not sure if that helps people generally, but good to know either way.

    @Minish, basically something happened between me and BSR on N1, and I've had him in my core ever since.


    Got it.


    If anyone else is actually Aragorn I'm gonna be pretty upset with you for not "countering" Hapi. So I'm gonna put Hapi in the town group for now.


    If you trust me Laur (and if I ever flip that will just make this more trustworthy), we never lynch from this group and then PoE from the rest.


    Town
    Me
    Laur
    Daws
    Turtle
    BSR
    Hapi




    Other
    Doc
    Eastern New England
    Flying Eagles
    Gerrick
    HumanSanity
    ogunbiyi6422
    Sapphiron
    The Greenlandic North
    Vroendal
    Wille-Harlia
    Wintermoot
    Wischland



    If anyone has invest roles, anyone in this group is a good target.
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