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I think the easiest way is to directly ask @Red Mones

Under Rule 3, both revealing and hinting roles is not allowed.

Is “roles” defined by its characteristic (defend, resurrect, kill) or its name (Gollum, Aragonn, Gandalf)? Which hinting is permissible and which isn’t.

I am going to sleep because it’s an ungodly hour but I need you to trust me when I say Hapi is a Town Lock

Lol, Sapph, if you're playing me, I'm going to be legit annoyed with you for like, at least a day, but you'll deserve your Wolf win. Fine, I'll trust you.

*Looks at the votes at him*

Well, I don't blame you for going after me, I would too.  I don't have nor need a partner though, I'm just fine on my own.  But you do what you must I suppose, and I respect that choice.

Don't lie, you're upset and want friends because you hate being alone.

Leave me alone! I just want to enjoy a game without you being so mean to me.  ;-;

Nope.

I am not lynching you until I can get some sort of hint from a Seer, Hapi, but I am not lynching Gerrick either.

I am lynching Michi. If Michi flips green, I am lynching Gerrick. If he flips green, I am lynching you!

I am now also forced to consider the possibility that I had my shit figured out to begin with, and that you're just a chaotic Wolf who is counting on me to perform the actions in this order, by Christ.

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMIIIIITTTTTTTT

OR, or, *taps fingers together* we coouuuullld do something like lynch Willie. ;p
I still think it's a very valid guess to think that there's a WW among our guests, and from seeing that Willie has been more active than most of the others and has played WW before I don't think it's a bad idea to start with them.

I do agree that we need to look at them closer as well since it's very likely at least one of them is a wolf.

After all, whatever happened to Wintreath Bros before XKI (insert rhyming word here)?

In all seriousness, I'm just feeling a bit conflicted.  On the one side, people like Hapi and Gerrick are giving town vibes the more I read their posts (the serious ones).  On the other side, I'm a bit split because of the excessive quoting and throwing at us that she could or couldn't be Aragorn just comes off as trying too hard to convince us when she very well could be a wolf.

I'm confident on my Vro vote, but I'm conflicted about the after, especially if, big shock, the person I voted for ended up flipping green because my luck in this game is usually terrible.

But at the very least, I'm glad I have someone I can talk to during these trying times.

Like anyone would want to talk to you.

I'm not listening to that.  D:

Actually, the more I look at this, the more I do not like what I see at all. He's still saying he's confident about his Vro vote, and yet he leaves himself a backdoor in case it goes screwy and Vro is actually green.

Yeah, Michi old chummy-chum, you were quite happy to have that rope of friendship with Hapi until it became a noose, eh?

Yeah, Michi old chummy-chum, you were quite happy to have that rope of friendship with Hapi until it became a noose, eh?

I mean, how many times did I say i town lean her, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was doing the quotes thing to manipulate us as a wolf?

Who cares what you say? You're nothing.  You're so much nothing that people actually believe you're actually with someone because you can't do anything on your own!

*cries*

Also, @Eastern New England and @ogunbiyi6422 need to vote today to not be mod-killed come night phase.

Yeah, ok, Had to read through 20 pages cause yall  post a lot.

I am not particularly good at werewolf and find it hard to jump into the conversation, I'm also bad at not noticing people's different behaviors. However, I do agree with Vro in that I doubt the wolf is TGN, he seems to just be voting based on what the next person says, I don't think he legitimately "suses" someone but just goes with what the next person says. If you notice the way he is on the RMB, and the fact that this is his first game, I think his "erratic" nature may just be because he doesn't want to get killed off, so he's trying to go with what will make him less sus, unfortunately its making him more suspicious.

Because of that, I think that if Vro was scum he wouldn't be defending him as he would want us to kill off a townie, so its not in his best interest but (unless of course they are both scum which would complicate things), I think my logic may not be the best but thats all I've got.

I'm going to also go and contradict my argument and say that I guess you could say that TGN's erratic voting may be because he is panicking and doesn't want to get caught, but I think Vro's theory is better.

Not that I'm not jumping on the bandwagon as well, but I will vote Michi, he is giving some "my precious" vibes, but of course I hope to see more convincing arguments and discussion.

~~ I apologize for editing posts as I realize thats against the rules but I just saw that hinting at roles is against the rules so I wouldn't want to mess the game up~~

In the future you can have me edit posts.

The current vote count is:

Michi - 4 (Laurentus, Sapphiron, Doc, Vroendal)
Vroendal - 3 (Dawsinian, Michi, Gerrick)
Wille-Harlia - 1 (Hapi)
Gerrick - 1 (Wille-Harlia)

So, roles. This one I'm gonna have to chalk up to first-time hosting. I really didn't think about it being an issue, and didn't really clarify because of it. It started out as characters who had roles (example: Theoden is a roleblocker), but then as the game became more complex and roles were added that weren't defined (afaik) roles, I changed it so that the characters were the roles (example: Dawsinian has the role of Theoden), and then each role had an ability (example: the Theoden role has the ability to block night actions, there is technically no roleblocker role, if that makes sense). This is why I put "roleblocker" in quotations when Dawsianian had died. He's technically not a roleblocker, but the action is literally the same, and I added the roleblocker definition as people needed a straightforward definition of roles that were/will be lost. Other complex roles will manifest themselves in other ways, so to speak. I don't know if this is understandable at all, but yeah that's what went on in my head when Ruguo and I were planning. Because of this confusion, there likely will be no enforcement of character (role) hinting, so don't assume anything based on this post or my enforcement or non-enforcement of the rule.

You guys really go too fast for me, but hopefully I'll be able to sort through my thoughts and actually type out this post before some major new info is revealed and the tide of the vote changes again. Let's see now

Town Lock: Me

Town Core:
~ Laurentus - Very townie vibes, lots of logical arguments made with the clear intention of finding wolves. Their frequent requests that everyone explain their logic seem to apply to everyone, which suggests to me that they're doing their best to ensure we get as much information as possible
~ TGN and turtle - give the strong impression of being new players who are overwhelmed by everything. If they were wolves I imagine they'd be clinging very closely to the more experienced wolves and doing exactly what they're told, instead of fumbling about for any threads they can grasp
~ Sapphiron - Every argument seems very rational. Although they were quiet at first, they're increasing levels of activity as we get more information suggests to me that they were not operating with outside knowledge and are only now beginning to form arguments as their knowledge has increased

Town Lean:
~ Vroendal - Some fumbles with their arguments, but most of it was still very logical, and seemed genuine. They've given me the impression that they've been trying to find the wolves as well, and have shown a willingness to go against and work with the people I think are town. Plus people I think are more scum-leaning were fine voting for Vro. Still put Vro just in town lean because there have been some inconsistencies in their arguments and their recent attempts to place continuous focus on Wille-Harlia seem a bit out of place given recent relevations
~ HumanSanity - This is based a lot of outside knowledge, so it's only a slight lean. HS is prone to be very chatty and make a ton of arguments. The fact that he isn't makes me think that he views this game as lower priority then the other things he's keeping busy with (which is fair). But if he were a wolf, I think he'd be more automatically invested in the game since he has a team and a clearer goal, and would thus be posting more. That's not the case, so I'm getting a bit of a town lean.
~ FlyingEagles - This one may also seem a bit odd, but my thoughts here are based on FE's activity levels. FE was very quiet throughout D1, with a noticeable increase in activity on D2. It just doesn't make a ton of sense for a wolf to have such a sudden change in activity since that's bound to draw attention. Since FE's arguments have been somewhat iffy, they also seem to be unguided. FE is pretty new, and I believe he's only played one or two games before this, as town. His posts strike me as similar to those instances which makes me think he's more town-leaning.
~ Dawsinian - Really could go either way for me, since we don't know who resurrected them. I'm kinda concerned over their list of people's suspected alignments cause it was a weird mix of Michi's and Lau's lists. However, Lau seems very confident that Daws is town so I will put my faith in that, for now at least.

Nulls:
~ Hapi - Oh Hapi. What to say on Hapi. Although they are chaotic and somewhat headache-inducing, the Smeogal/Gollum theory has potential. It explains Hapi's fixation on saving Michi especially in recent posts. I don't think Hapi is scum, since that doesn't make much sense in the context of the theory, and because they've become of the recent vote Gerrick/don't vote Gerrick thing. It doesn't make sense for a wolf to flip-flop on their own bandwagon like that, unless they were neutral or a misguided town.
~ Eastern New England, newvitalania - Silent. Can't really make any judgments here. ENE is normally quiet but also consistently votes. Possibly just didn't want to vote D1 as he was unsure who to vote for, so I'm interested to see if he'll pop in for a D2 vote.
~ Dawcreek - Ermmm...I really got nothing here. I feel like they've posted, but I can't remember anything about it. Is this kind of lurking normal? Could someone fill me in on that?

Scum Lean:
~ Ogunbiyi - Posted briefly in the beginning then vanished without a trace. I remember reading somewhere that they were new (correct me if I'm wrong) and that seems like strange behavior for a newbie. It's possible they've received instructions from more experienced wolves to lay low.
~ Gerrick - I'm seeing a mismatch in Gerrick's words and actions. I believe it was Vro that pointed out how Gerrick sought to create a tie in D1, but didn't step in again when that tie ended up becoming a bandwagon on Dawsinian. Now they're going after Vro (unless I missed a post somewhere) even though they said both Michi and Vro were they're scum leans, and Vro doesn't really strike me as a wolf. Also Lau said Gerrick was part of his town core (https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=6948.msg154246#msg154246) but also voted for him a few hours back according to this vote count: https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=6948.msg154254#msg154254. So that's kinda funky, not sure what to think of it yet.

Scum Core:

Scum Lock:

Anyway, I know I'm missing a bunch of people, but I'm gonna be working for the next 5 hours and just wanted to get this out there before that. I'll come back and finish up with everyone else, possibly clarify some arguments, and respond to stuff once I'm off work. Sorry about that!

You guys really go too fast for me, but hopefully I'll be able to sort through my thoughts and actually type out this post before some major new info is revealed and the tide of the vote changes again. Let's see now

Town Lock: Me

Town Core:
~ Laurentus - Very townie vibes, lots of logical arguments made with the clear intention of finding wolves. Their frequent requests that everyone explain their logic seem to apply to everyone, which suggests to me that they're doing their best to ensure we get as much information as possible
~ TGN and turtle - give the strong impression of being new players who are overwhelmed by everything. If they were wolves I imagine they'd be clinging very closely to the more experienced wolves and doing exactly what they're told, instead of fumbling about for any threads they can grasp
~ Sapphiron - Every argument seems very rational. Although they were quiet at first, they're increasing levels of activity as we get more information suggests to me that they were not operating with outside knowledge and are only now beginning to form arguments as their knowledge has increased

Town Lean:
~ Vroendal - Some fumbles with their arguments, but most of it was still very logical, and seemed genuine. They've given me the impression that they've been trying to find the wolves as well, and have shown a willingness to go against and work with the people I think are town. Plus people I think are more scum-leaning were fine voting for Vro. Still put Vro just in town lean because there have been some inconsistencies in their arguments and their recent attempts to place continuous focus on Wille-Harlia seem a bit out of place given recent relevations
~ HumanSanity - This is based a lot of outside knowledge, so it's only a slight lean. HS is prone to be very chatty and make a ton of arguments. The fact that he isn't makes me think that he views this game as lower priority then the other things he's keeping busy with (which is fair). But if he were a wolf, I think he'd be more automatically invested in the game since he has a team and a clearer goal, and would thus be posting more. That's not the case, so I'm getting a bit of a town lean.
~ FlyingEagles - This one may also seem a bit odd, but my thoughts here are based on FE's activity levels. FE was very quiet throughout D1, with a noticeable increase in activity on D2. It just doesn't make a ton of sense for a wolf to have such a sudden change in activity since that's bound to draw attention. Since FE's arguments have been somewhat iffy, they also seem to be unguided. FE is pretty new, and I believe he's only played one or two games before this, as town. His posts strike me as similar to those instances which makes me think he's more town-leaning.
~ Dawsinian - Really could go either way for me, since we don't know who resurrected them. I'm kinda concerned over their list of people's suspected alignments cause it was a weird mix of Michi's and Lau's lists. However, Lau seems very confident that Daws is town so I will put my faith in that, for now at least.

Nulls:
~ Hapi - Oh Hapi. What to say on Hapi. Although they are chaotic and somewhat headache-inducing, the Smeogal/Gollum theory has potential. It explains Hapi's fixation on saving Michi especially in recent posts. I don't think Hapi is scum, since that doesn't make much sense in the context of the theory, and because they've become of the recent vote Gerrick/don't vote Gerrick thing. It doesn't make sense for a wolf to flip-flop on their own bandwagon like that, unless they were neutral or a misguided town.
~ Eastern New England, newvitalania - Silent. Can't really make any judgments here. ENE is normally quiet but also consistently votes. Possibly just didn't want to vote D1 as he was unsure who to vote for, so I'm interested to see if he'll pop in for a D2 vote.
~ Dawcreek - Ermmm...I really got nothing here. I feel like they've posted, but I can't remember anything about it. Is this kind of lurking normal? Could someone fill me in on that?

Scum Lean:
~ Ogunbiyi - Posted briefly in the beginning then vanished without a trace. I remember reading somewhere that they were new (correct me if I'm wrong) and that seems like strange behavior for a newbie. It's possible they've received instructions from more experienced wolves to lay low.
~ Gerrick - I'm seeing a mismatch in Gerrick's words and actions. I believe it was Vro that pointed out how Gerrick sought to create a tie in D1, but didn't step in again when that tie ended up becoming a bandwagon on Dawsinian. Now they're going after Vro (unless I missed a post somewhere) even though they said both Michi and Vro were they're scum leans, and Vro doesn't really strike me as a wolf. Also Lau said Gerrick was part of his town core (https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=6948.msg154246#msg154246) but also voted for him a few hours back according to this vote count: https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=6948.msg154254#msg154254. So that's kinda funky, not sure what to think of it yet.

Scum Core:

Scum Lock:

Anyway, I know I'm missing a bunch of people, but I'm gonna be working for the next 5 hours and just wanted to get this out there before that. I'll come back and finish up with everyone else, possibly clarify some arguments, and respond to stuff once I'm off work. Sorry about that!

I could give you the short version, but I could also let you read through the whole mess again yourself, and see what you have to say. Start here and end here.

So, roles. This one I'm gonna have to chalk up to first-time hosting. I really didn't think about it being an issue, and didn't really clarify because of it. It started out as characters who had roles (example: Theoden is a roleblocker), but then as the game became more complex and roles were added that weren't defined (afaik) roles, I changed it so that the characters were the roles (example: Dawsinian has the role of Theoden), and then each role had an ability (example: the Theoden role has the ability to block night actions, there is technically no roleblocker role, if that makes sense). This is why I put "roleblocker" in quotations when Dawsianian had died. He's technically not a roleblocker, but the action is literally the same, and I added the roleblocker definition as people needed a straightforward definition of roles that were/will be lost. Other complex roles will manifest themselves in other ways, so to speak. I don't know if this is understandable at all, but yeah that's what went on in my head when Ruguo and I were planning. Because of this confusion, there likely will be no enforcement of character (role) hinting, so don't assume anything based on this post or my enforcement or non-enforcement of the rule.

To be fair when I read that rule I just read it as you may not outright say I am this character. Or speak about your abilities. But that giving people breadcrumbs and letting them figure things out on their own would be okay especially since I could easily be lying right I've never said who I was. 



Anyways Michi is smeagol maybe I'm definitely not unless I am. Gerrick might be Legolas unless he's not.  Have I created a hell where everyone hints roles thru quotes yeah...yeah I did.

At this point I think we as town are making a grave mistake.

unvote

Vote: Vro

This is the only way I can see to maybe possibly keep smeagol alive and I donut think he's evil.

There is still hope...he needs time.

Anyways Michi is smeagol maybe I'm definitely not unless I am. Gerrick might be Legolas unless he's not.  Have I created a hell where everyone hints roles thru quotes yeah...yeah I did.

At this point I think we as town are making a grave mistake.

unvote

Vote: Vro

This is the only way I can see to maybe possibly keep smeagol alive and I donut think he's evil.

There is still hope...he needs time.

I'm gonna go and say that this feels like an outright lie to me in a last ditch attempt to save Michi. Ofc perhaps I'm biased at this point but it feels like the only thing you could do here anyway so I'm not gonna put too much stock it in. You can't say that Michi is Smeagol when we're assuming that one of you is not the same alignment as the other. Because then that leaves YOU as Gollum, and you're saying "we as town" :p So which is it Hapi? Which of you is Smeagol? My thoughts are that Gollum has a goal to kill a townie, your goal (as Smeagol in all likelihood) is to keep Michi alive. Gollum is unaligned/wolf, while Smeagol is town/unaligned.