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I’ve been thinking about this for a bit...maybe it’s time to consider some changes to what we call some roles to make them less generic and reflect our regional identity more. I’m going to be upfront and admit that a lot of this is inspired from Dragon Age.

First, Citizenship. The name is pretty generic...it’s basically what most regions call the group of members that can participate in government to some extent. It’s also in conflict with the RP side of NationStates...there, you’re a leader of a group (nation), but here as a Citizen you’re an individual. What if we renamed Citizens to Freeholders (or something creative and unique to us) instead?

Not only would it be more unique than Citizens, but it would also tie into lore that’s more harmonious with NS, since we could say that the person is pledging their land as part of the Frozen Realm. We could even allow Freeholders to name their land (maybe as a town or village in the realm). We could also allow them to pledge to one of the noble families, so that they’re associated with a family without actually being part of it (and hopefully ending this thing where families just take on anybody to grow). It could even tie into an open assembly Underhusen if that’s the route we go. I think there’s a lot we can do with this.

Because the term Citizen is based in the Fundamental Laws, this could only be changed by constitutional amendment, so I would want to get a lot of feedback before drafting one for the next election.

Also, I would like to rename the noble titles...count, duke, and archduke are pretty generic European titles. I’m half-tempted to use the Fereldan titles of Bann, Arl, and Teyrn, but that seems pretty shameless, and I’m sure at this point we could think up something that’s unique to us. I would also like to add a fourth noble rank between Count and Duke, so that there’s more opportunities for promotion. This is all based on Royal Decree, so I can make those changes myself when I feel we have something good.

Finally, I would like to change the titles of some of our civil servants...maybe recruiters could be heralds, ambassadors could be emissaries, and writers for the Orendi could be scribes. I don’t know, to be honest this is the change I’ve thought the least about, but would be the easiest to do since it’s not defined in any actual law.

What do you guys think?

I'm not sure about this... The one big name change in common parlance that we've seen since earlier Wintreath has been the opposite, from Riksrad to Cabinet. Perhaps Wintreath in general might prefer simpler/self-explanatory English names over fancier ones.

Not a fan of Freeholder. I see you proposing ways to tie it into RP stuff, but as a general term for Wintreans I'd personally prefer something more egalitarian that a word which implies property requirements for citizenship.

Re: our own nobility titles, maybe it is time for an actual Wintrean conlang? Perhaps a Nordic language which could conceivably be a natlang.

I would actually like Fereldan titles of nobility, but the one title that is actually heavily inspired by Dragon Age, Paragon, irks me quite a bit to this day, because the whole point of being named a Paragon in DA:O is that you're seen as a Living Ancestor by the ancestor-revering dwarves. The way it actually gets used in Wintreath, where someone only gets named thus after they leave for what is expected to be an indefinite amount of time, is more closely related to the Qunari concept of Qunaron Vehl: "Such examples are only made after their death, however. A death in service to the Qun. A living Qunaron Vehl would be too proud."

I would also like to add a fourth noble rank between Count and Duke, so that there’s more opportunities for promotion. This is all based on Royal Decree, so I can make those changes myself when I feel we have something good.

The best example of a title between 'Count' and 'Duke' I can think of would be something like 'Marquis/Marquess'.

Not a fan of Freeholder. I see you proposing ways to tie it into RP stuff, but as a general term for Wintreans I'd personally prefer something more egalitarian that a word which implies property requirements for citizenship.

I sort of like the idea, but if we're going to lean into the feudalism then we should lean in all the way and adopt wholly noble-titular titles. I think rather more people would sign up on the forums if instead of securing citizenship, they became a Baronet.

snip

I think we're perhaps too influenced by the only Paragon in the games to begin with; we never see Branka when she's around, only when she's gone off on her expedition - and been gone for ~2 years. Which sort of unfortunately trumps the actual nature of Paragonhood.

It could even tie into an open assembly Underhusen if that’s the route we go.

Also I believe the Underhusen must be destroyed.

I’ve been thinking about this for a bit...maybe it’s time to consider some changes to what we call some roles to make them less generic and reflect our regional identity more. I’m going to be upfront and admit that a lot of this is inspired from Dragon Age.

First, Citizenship. The name is pretty generic...it’s basically what most regions call the group of members that can participate in government to some extent. It’s also in conflict with the RP side of NationStates...there, you’re a leader of a group (nation), but here as a Citizen you’re an individual. What if we renamed Citizens to Freeholders (or something creative and unique to us) instead?

Not only would it be more unique than Citizens, but it would also tie into lore that’s more harmonious with NS, since we could say that the person is pledging their land as part of the Frozen Realm. We could even allow Freeholders to name their land (maybe as a town or village in the realm). We could also allow them to pledge to one of the noble families, so that they’re associated with a family without actually being part of it (and hopefully ending this thing where families just take on anybody to grow). It could even tie into an open assembly Underhusen if that’s the route we go. I think there’s a lot we can do with this.

Because the term Citizen is based in the Fundamental Laws, this could only be changed by constitutional amendment, so I would want to get a lot of feedback before drafting one for the next election.

Also, I would like to rename the noble titles...count, duke, and archduke are pretty generic European titles. I’m half-tempted to use the Fereldan titles of Bann, Arl, and Teyrn, but that seems pretty shameless, and I’m sure at this point we could think up something that’s unique to us. I would also like to add a fourth noble rank between Count and Duke, so that there’s more opportunities for promotion. This is all based on Royal Decree, so I can make those changes myself when I feel we have something good.

Finally, I would like to change the titles of some of our civil servants...maybe recruiters could be heralds, ambassadors could be emissaries, and writers for the Orendi could be scribes. I don’t know, to be honest this is the change I’ve thought the least about, but would be the easiest to do since it’s not defined in any actual law.

What do you guys think?

im all for changing the names duke and archduke. They sound pretty bland to me. I dont know about freeholders. I feel it would cause confusion to newcomers. Mabye members would be better if you were to change it. There isnt much you can change too. But those are just thoughts and ideas.

I mean, I personally prefer keeping our titles the same. Clear and Concise communication is usually a bit more important, and the more unique titles we have, the more effort a new person has to get into the region.

I'm not sure about this... The one big name change in common parlance that we've seen since earlier Wintreath has been the opposite, from Riksrad to Cabinet. Perhaps Wintreath in general might prefer simpler/self-explanatory English names over fancier ones...
[snip]
...Re: our own nobility titles, maybe it is time for an actual Wintrean conlang? Perhaps a Nordic language which could conceivably be a natlang.

WRT to the Riksråd -> Cabinet morph, the main reason why I use Cabinet over Riksråd is because I can't type the å letter. While I can type Riksrad, it just makes more sense to type Cabinet, and Cabinet is generally clearer in the long run. When I'm abroad I typically use Minister if I don't care to explain the term Jarl or w/e everytime I talk about the region (although these are more self explanatory).

Also I've tried to make a Wintreath Conlang for a while now. I still have the bare documents and Discord Server for it. I'd be up for that.

There are plenty of Old Norse dictionaries online that could be used as a sort of a crude way to create names for titles/roles.

https://www.vikingsofbjornstad.com/Old_Norse_Dictionary_N2E.shtm
https://glosbe.com/non/en/
https://www.yorku.ca/inpar/language/English-Old_Norse.pdf


EDIT: Here are some examples.
King: Konungr
Duke: Hertogi
Count: Jarl
Noble: Lendrmadr (literally "landed-man")
Citizen: Landsmadr (literally "countryman") or Landi ("fellow-countryman")
Various leader titles: Folkhagi, Drottinn, Foringi, Formadr, Forstjori, Hersir, Hofdingi, Skati, Skorungr, Vini/Vinr, Visi, Yfirmadr, Budlungr, Doglingr, Jofurr, Lofdungr, Thjodann, Hilmir, Godi
Paragon alternatives: Skorungr, Hreystimadr, Kaempe, Kappi, Oldungr, Seggr, Halr, Holdr, Afreksmadr

I absolutely love Freeholder replacing Citizen, as well as the Scribe, Emissary and Herald titles.

I suspect I speak for everyone who’s never played Dragon Age when I say that the proposed replacements for the noble titles are completely incomprehensible to me personally. I personally like the ones we have now, but if we’re going to change them they should still be decipherable to most people.

There are plenty of Old Norse dictionaries online that could be used as a sort of a crude way to create names for titles/roles.

https://www.vikingsofbjornstad.com/Old_Norse_Dictionary_N2E.shtm
https://glosbe.com/non/en/
https://www.yorku.ca/inpar/language/English-Old_Norse.pdf


EDIT: Here are some examples.
King: Konungr
Duke: Hertogi
Count: Jarl
Noble: Lendrmadr (literally "landed-man")
Citizen: Landsmadr (literally "countryman") or Landi ("fellow-countryman")
Various leader titles: Folkhagi, Drottinn, Foringi, Formadr, Forstjori, Hersir, Hofdingi, Skati, Skorungr, Vini/Vinr, Visi, Yfirmadr, Budlungr, Doglingr, Jofurr, Lofdungr, Thjodann, Hilmir, Godi
Paragon alternatives: Skorungr, Hreystimadr, Kaempe, Kappi, Oldungr, Seggr, Halr, Holdr, Afreksmadr

Only weirdness is that we have two Germanic nobility titles (Jarl and Thane) in non-nobility contexts (as Minister and [kinda] Deputy Minister).

Though also, changing nobility titles may also have similar concern to my concern with Citizen, in that everyone knows English nobility titles so they immediately have context/impact whereas other titles will not.

Is "Jarl" Germanic? I can only find it being a Scandinavian version of "Earl". But regardless, yeah I'd think Jarl and Thane would need to be renamed to something to better fit a standardized theme.

But if we're going with more understandable English titles, then I'd think Jarl and Thane should be changed to Minister and Vice Minister (or similar), Riksrad to Cabinet, Storting to Legislature, etc. as we have questions on those all the time that need clarification.

I can understand having titles be more easy to recognize, though. Just up to personal taste. Either way, I'm down for changes to names.

Is "Jarl" Germanic? I can only find it being a Scandinavian version of "Earl". But regardless, yeah I'd think Jarl and Thane would need to be renamed to something to better fit a standardized theme.

Scandinavian languages are Germanic. Thane is used more widely so I stuck with the more general term here.

Not a fan of Freeholder. I see you proposing ways to tie it into RP stuff, but as a general term for Wintreans I'd personally prefer something more egalitarian that a word which implies property requirements for citizenship.

There are property requirements for citizenship. But land is an infinite resource in the NSverse, so it’s still egalitarian.

Is "Jarl" Germanic? I can only find it being a Scandinavian version of "Earl". But regardless, yeah I'd think Jarl and Thane would need to be renamed to something to better fit a standardized theme.

Scandinavian languages are Germanic. Thane is used more widely so I stuck with the more general term here.

Ohh, I see what you're saying. The emphasis was on nobility in a non-nobility context and not Germanic in a non-Germanic theme. I'm an idiot.

Not a fan of Freeholder. I see you proposing ways to tie it into RP stuff, but as a general term for Wintreans I'd personally prefer something more egalitarian that a word which implies property requirements for citizenship.

There are property requirements for citizenship. But land is an infinite resource in the NSverse, so it’s still egalitarian.

Regardless of RP justification, such a term still has classist connotations stemming from the real world, which I don't like.

So, the consensus here seems to be that everybody posting has an opinion.

@taulover: Personally, I feel like RP-wise we already tie things into land. As @Charax pointed out, to meet the requirements of Citizenship you have to have "land" in the form of a NationStates nation, and when a person becomes a noble they get to pick out a city that they would presumably rule over. Arguing that the Freeholder title has classist connotations from the real world is kind of like saying we shouldn't be a Monarchy because it has authoritarian connotations. As Freud probably didn't actually say despite popular belief "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

@Laurentus: Personally I like the Fereldan titles too, but it just seems kind of lazy for a large group that isn't based on DA. Where Paragon is an actual word that doesn't have to tie into DA (though it certainly was inspired by it), these titles were developed for DA and as far as I know don't exist anywhere else. I think what's cool about them (and this ties into some of the debate about other titles) is that they're simple to remember and type out once you learn what they are. I do think we went too far with hard to remember titles in the past (did anyone ever memorize how to spell Hvitt Riddaral?), but I think the Fereldan titles are proof that you can develop something unique and easy to remember.

As for Paragons, I think what's forgotten is that we applied the name a concept that already existed: Honorary Citizenship, which came about for cases when someone had made great contributions to Wintreath but could no longer maintain Citizenship. It's just the name that was inspired, not the actual process.

@Doc: I find the idea of giving people a noble title at the beginning intriguing, in that I think it would help make new people feel like they stand out a bit more in the crowd and maybe give the the confidence to keep going on in Wintreath. At the same time though, I would worry that it would dilute the concept of what the nobility is. The people that are nobles have all contributed great things to the region, and certainly deserve the recognition...would it mean as much if we're just putting everyone in the nobility?