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Lastly: we already have zombie citizens. I'm sure it would be relatively easy to check how many citizens made 0 posts in the last calendar year, and it would certainly be a non-zero number.

I will note that on this, she's mainly talking about the idea that people would just continue to stay masked as a citizen each month because they'd set up a recurring payment...not the already present idea that people will just join and disappear, eventually being made into former citizens.

In reality though, I feel like the only people that would put enough faith in Wintreath to put up a monthly auto-payment would be the already active members.  I really can't see a lot of new people coming in and doing it off the bat...it's no Playstation Plus or xbox Live...nor is it even required in the first place.  So the idea of Zombie Citizens is a questionable point at best (Plus, what are Paragons but "Zombie Citizens" since they're permanent citizens even if they're virtually dead?).

I will say that it is pretty par for the course that you're completely against this, Chanku.

I remember when the idea of the post count alternative was introduced, you were against that too because you hated the idea of us trying to push away from being an NS-centric place.

Now you're praising it and considering post contribution to be far more worthwhile than a monetary one.

But that's okay, once this is approved by others and we move on to discuss yet another alternative down the road in the future...you'll be against that too and praising donation contribution as a "selfless and valuable contribution to the community" as a reasoning against it.

Also, I'm thinking back...weren't you the one that was suggesting the idea of entire forums behind a paywall?  I distinctly remember you talking at one point about how we could and possibly should go that route with donations, even using other forums as an example as to how it could be done well.

For someone that's now saying this:

Further, it would disadvantage people who may not be able to do that, for one reason or another and would just end up feeling bad for those who do that.

it seems incredibly contradictory given that you were once voicing ideas on something that absolutely would disadvantage people since it would literally block non-donators from seeing specific content.

Okay, I thought my issue with the name "Merchant" was a simple nitpick, but your whole reasoning against the whole thing is a nitpick.

Firstly, no.  Having an NS nation does not contribute anything if you're not active with said nation nor are you active on the forums.  I'd be more worried about someone that just continuously resurrects their nation and does nothing than I would about someone who helps pay for the site just because they want to keep citizenship.  At the very least with the latter, you're helping the site stay alive, whereas again with the former it does absolutely nothing.

Secondly, saying donations are "not as much of a contribution as 5 posts on the forums each month" is an apples to oranges argument.  The former, again, helps maintain the server and keep Wintreath alive.  The latter helps keep the server active and keeps Wintreath thriving.  They're both equally important, and if someone wants to contribute to more one side than the other, then it's equally valid.

Thirdly, if someone didn't want to donate, they're not going to.  If someone wants to donate, 5 dollars isn't a lot to save up for (and they can always donate less, we're just discussing ideas for if they donate up to $5 each time, as well as rewards for donating up to certain amounts total).  If they can't donate the current month, they can post 5 times or make sure their NS nation is alive, and then they can try again next month.  This isn't a Patreon where they HAVE to set up recurring payments each month (although it IS an option, it's not required).  The rewards being discussed aren't something for consecutive cycles, but just total.  For example, those who are at the 75-100+ dollar total currently would be made Cardinals if the Donator titles were approved...even if they haven't made any donations recently.

If you want to donate, great.  If you don't want to or are currently unable to, that's okay because forum/discord posting and activity is equally important.

First off, you really shouldn't dismiss someone's concerns as 'nitpicking' just because you disagree with them.

Secondly, I would point out that all of our new people come through NationStates, for which having a Nation is definitely more important, in my opinon. It increases the number of nations in our region both making us more visible on a NationStates wide-basis and also increasing the amount of people that are shown when people are considering or community, which has a net positive effect in that it shows potentially new people -- with almost no other metric to go by in regards to what a 'good region' is -- that there is at least some reason to join the region and that the region isn't entirely dead. Even if they don't actively participate, they still help us on NationStates.

Next, you misread my point entirely. There are some people that can not donate, when I first joined this region I was in such a place that I couldn't have donated even if I wanted to. When you bring money anywhere you bring in certain social stigmas as well. While yes, there would be other options, it still can cause issues for people who would feel bad for donating, because instead of it being an optional thing that comes with some non-legal perks (such as a simple role on Discord), now you get tangible benefit from doing so. This also sets precedent for future expansions on things in the legal realm for payment, such as allowing actual money to be payed for access to certain areas that normally wouldn't be gated, requiring money to actually get citizenship or to run in elections, etc. While this will likely not come to pass, it sets a standard that says that this is permissible in some form and may very well be used in the future for justification for certain things.

Finally, WRT the financial contribution not being that much. I stand behind my statement. A lot of the expenses that Wintreath has, are expenses taken on willingly. They are not, strictly speaking, necessary. While this is not to trivialize what Wintermoot has done, Wintreath can likely continue on without a lot of what is being paid for -- albeit a difference would be felt and quality would likely be much lower. However without nations or active members, Wintreath would likely falter and start to collapse. While I do think the Forums and everything else that is a part of the expenses of Wintreath is important, I don't think it is justifiable to allow people to just pay their way through Wintreath just because of that.

Lastly: we already have zombie citizens. I'm sure it would be relatively easy to check how many citizens made 0 posts in the last calendar year, and it would certainly be a non-zero number.

I will note that on this, she's mainly talking about the idea that people would just continue to stay masked as a citizen each month because they'd set up a recurring payment...not the already present idea that people will just join and disappear, eventually being made into former citizens.

In reality though, I feel like the only people that would put enough faith in Wintreath to put up a monthly auto-payment would be the already active members.  I really can't see a lot of new people coming in and doing it off the bat...it's no Playstation Plus or xbox Live...nor is it even required in the first place.  So the idea of Zombie Citizens is a questionable point at best (Plus, what are Paragons but "Zombie Citizens" since they're permanent citizens even if they're virtually dead?).

I will say that it is pretty par for the course that you're completely against this, Chanku.

I remember when the idea of the post count alternative was introduced, you were against that too because you hated the idea of us trying to push away from being an NS-centric place.

Now you're praising it and considering post contribution to be far more worthwhile than a monetary one.

But that's okay, once this is approved by others and we move on to discuss yet another alternative down the road in the future...you'll be against that too and praising donation contribution as a "selfless and valuable contribution to the community" as a reasoning against it.

Paragonship is also an honour bestowed by the Community for great achivements within the Region and Community, it is not something that one pays for. Also, you're being rather hostile here, and attacking a Strawman. I'm not necessarily praising the 5 post requirement, I still think it is a mistake and think it should be removed. HOWEVER, I also recognize that is unlikely to happen. 

On another note: DAMN YOU AND YOUR TIMING. MAKING ME RESPOND TO FOUR POSTS AT ONCE DURING ME RESPONDING TO ONE POST!

Okay, I thought my issue with the name "Merchant" was a simple nitpick, but your whole reasoning against the whole thing is a nitpick.

Firstly, no.  Having an NS nation does not contribute anything if you're not active with said nation nor are you active on the forums.  I'd be more worried about someone that just continuously resurrects their nation and does nothing than I would about someone who helps pay for the site just because they want to keep citizenship.  At the very least with the latter, you're helping the site stay alive, whereas again with the former it does absolutely nothing.

Secondly, saying donations are "not as much of a contribution as 5 posts on the forums each month" is an apples to oranges argument.  The former, again, helps maintain the server and keep Wintreath alive.  The latter helps keep the server active and keeps Wintreath thriving.  They're both equally important, and if someone wants to contribute to more one side than the other, then it's equally valid.

Thirdly, if someone didn't want to donate, they're not going to.  If someone wants to donate, 5 dollars isn't a lot to save up for (and they can always donate less, we're just discussing ideas for if they donate up to $5 each time, as well as rewards for donating up to certain amounts total).  If they can't donate the current month, they can post 5 times or make sure their NS nation is alive, and then they can try again next month.  This isn't a Patreon where they HAVE to set up recurring payments each month (although it IS an option, it's not required).  The rewards being discussed aren't something for consecutive cycles, but just total.  For example, those who are at the 75-100+ dollar total currently would be made Cardinals if the Donator titles were approved...even if they haven't made any donations recently.

If you want to donate, great.  If you don't want to or are currently unable to, that's okay because forum/discord posting and activity is equally important.

First off, you really shouldn't dismiss someone's concerns as 'nitpicking' just because you disagree with them.

Secondly, I would point out that all of our new people come through NationStates, for which having a Nation is definitely more important, in my opinon. It increases the number of nations in our region both making us more visible on a NationStates wide-basis and also increasing the amount of people that are shown when people are considering or community, which has a net positive effect in that it shows potentially new people -- with almost no other metric to go by in regards to what a 'good region' is -- that there is at least some reason to join the region and that the region isn't entirely dead. Even if they don't actively participate, they still help us on NationStates.

Next, you misread my point entirely. There are some people that can not donate, when I first joined this region I was in such a place that I couldn't have donated even if I wanted to. When you bring money anywhere you bring in certain social stigmas as well. While yes, there would be other options, it still can cause issues for people who would feel bad for donating, because instead of it being an optional thing that comes with some non-legal perks (such as a simple role on Discord), now you get tangible benefit from doing so. This also sets precedent for future expansions on things in the legal realm for payment, such as allowing actual money to be payed for access to certain areas that normally wouldn't be gated, requiring money to actually get citizenship or to run in elections, etc. While this will likely not come to pass, it sets a standard that says that this is permissible in some form and may very well be used in the future for justification for certain things.

Lastly: we already have zombie citizens. I'm sure it would be relatively easy to check how many citizens made 0 posts in the last calendar year, and it would certainly be a non-zero number.

I will note that on this, she's mainly talking about the idea that people would just continue to stay masked as a citizen each month because they'd set up a recurring payment...not the already present idea that people will just join and disappear, eventually being made into former citizens.

In reality though, I feel like the only people that would put enough faith in Wintreath to put up a monthly auto-payment would be the already active members.  I really can't see a lot of new people coming in and doing it off the bat...it's no Playstation Plus or xbox Live...nor is it even required in the first place.  So the idea of Zombie Citizens is a questionable point at best (Plus, what are Paragons but "Zombie Citizens" since they're permanent citizens even if they're virtually dead?).

I will say that it is pretty par for the course that you're completely against this, Chanku.

I remember when the idea of the post count alternative was introduced, you were against that too because you hated the idea of us trying to push away from being an NS-centric place.

Now you're praising it and considering post contribution to be far more worthwhile than a monetary one.

But that's okay, once this is approved by others and we move on to discuss yet another alternative down the road in the future...you'll be against that too and praising donation contribution as a "selfless and valuable contribution to the community" as a reasoning against it.

Paragonship is also an honour bestowed by the Community for great achivements within the Region and Community, it is not something that one pays for. Also, you're being rather hostile here, and attacking a Strawman. I'm not necessarily praising the 5 post requirement, I still think it is a mistake and think it should be removed. HOWEVER, I also recognize that is unlikely to happen. 

On another note: DAMN YOU AND YOUR TIMING. MAKING ME RESPOND TO FOUR POSTS AT ONCE DURING ME RESPONDING TO ONE POST!

Except it is nitpicking.  You're dismissing the idea of it because you personally don't see it as valuable compared to posting or even just having a nation that is currently alive.

And you completely missed my point.  If someone joins by Nationstates, great! The more the merrier.  My issue with your statement is pertaining to keeping those nations.  If a member is active on Nationstates and joins Wintreath, that's cool.  If a member joins from Nationstates but remains active on Wintreath, also cool.

But if a member joins from Nationstates, is active on neither platform, but simply keeps their nation alive and does nothing with it, then no, that's not contribution.  They aren't helping Wintreath in any way by keeping a nation alive and not actually doing anything in either area.  So no, I don't see having an NS nation as valuable as actually contributing to Wintreath, be it by post or by donation.

And no, I didn't miss your point, but perhaps you missed mine?

Again, $5 Dollars isn't the absolute requirement.  You could donate $1 if you want, or even just not donate and be an active poster.  If you can't donate, that's perfectly fine, not everyone is made of money, and from someone who has yet to donate because he has his own bills to pay...I can respect the idea that not everyone is going to be able to.

But for those who want to donate, they can.  If you don't have a dollar this month, wait till next month.  If you want to donate 5 dollars, you can save up.  These aren't game breaking perks being suggested, they're thank you gifts to people who are taking the time, breaking into their budget and using it to help keep Wintreath's gears running.

And again, for someone that I recall once suggested those "gated" areas that required payment access, you're actually contradicting yourself.  Wintermoot, nor anyone in this is suggesting such a thing, and if you recall in the past when it was suggested, it was pretty heavily shot down because that was seen as a pay to win tactic which we didn't want to get involved in.

All we're suggesting is small little thank you gifts for people who dug into their budget to help out. Badges, a point toward the grab bag, and a month of avoiding the Citizenship Check aren't big things.  The titles? They're nice little tidbits for people who donate certain amounts...but why shouldn't those people be given a title?  $25 dollars contribution to Wintreath to me means as much as someone revolutionizing one of the Cabinet areas.  It's a lot of money that someone decided to spend on us rather than a game or a movie...or possibly toward something they needed (like a new car or computer), and it's something that should be appreciated, just as $50 dollars should, and especially higher.

Unless Wintreath literally becomes a "Pay to join/access most of the forums" I fail to see the issue here, especially when we've shot down such actual ideas before.

Finally, WRT the financial contribution not being that much. I stand behind my statement. A lot of the expenses that Wintreath has, are expenses taken on willingly. They are not, strictly speaking, necessary. While this is not to trivialize what Wintermoot has done, Wintreath can likely continue on without a lot of what is being paid for -- albeit a difference would be felt and quality would likely be much lower. However without nations or active members, Wintreath would likely falter and start to collapse. While I do think the Forums and everything else that is a part of the expenses of Wintreath is important, I don't think it is justifiable to allow people to just pay their way through Wintreath just because of that.

Nothing is necessary, it's not even necessary for Wintreath to even be around when there's plenty of other places on Nationstates to go.  It's not necessary for Nationstates to even exist when there's far better games out there for people to play.  It's not necessary for people to pay for Online Multiplayer games per month when there's ones that do it for free.  It's not necessary to pay so much to make a good single player game when there's plenty of indie games that do it for less.  Hell, it's not even necessary to make any single player games when the market for multiplayer is much more lucrative.

Just because it's "not necessary" and "taken on willingly" doesn't cheapen it like you're trying to do with that statement.  If Nationstates decided to shut down today without warning, I doubt Wintreath would suddenly cease to exist in that same moment unless Wintermoot and the people just gave up.  Would we struggle a bit at first? Sure, as the forums is pretty NS oriented (though we've slowly worked on being less).  But the beauty of things is that A) A good messageboard can reshape itself to fit with the times, and even Wintreath can survive without its NS crutch if we wanted it to.  And B) There is an entire world outside of NS that Wintreath can advertise to.  This whole "NS is our livelihood" spiel is getting exceptionally tiresome.  NS isn't our livelihood, NS is just something that we happen to funnel from currently because it's convenient for getting new members easily.  But again, if Wintreath is really a good enough messageboard, we can survive without NS.

Okay, I thought my issue with the name "Merchant" was a simple nitpick, but your whole reasoning against the whole thing is a nitpick.

Firstly, no.  Having an NS nation does not contribute anything if you're not active with said nation nor are you active on the forums.  I'd be more worried about someone that just continuously resurrects their nation and does nothing than I would about someone who helps pay for the site just because they want to keep citizenship.  At the very least with the latter, you're helping the site stay alive, whereas again with the former it does absolutely nothing.

Secondly, saying donations are "not as much of a contribution as 5 posts on the forums each month" is an apples to oranges argument.  The former, again, helps maintain the server and keep Wintreath alive.  The latter helps keep the server active and keeps Wintreath thriving.  They're both equally important, and if someone wants to contribute to more one side than the other, then it's equally valid.

Thirdly, if someone didn't want to donate, they're not going to.  If someone wants to donate, 5 dollars isn't a lot to save up for (and they can always donate less, we're just discussing ideas for if they donate up to $5 each time, as well as rewards for donating up to certain amounts total).  If they can't donate the current month, they can post 5 times or make sure their NS nation is alive, and then they can try again next month.  This isn't a Patreon where they HAVE to set up recurring payments each month (although it IS an option, it's not required).  The rewards being discussed aren't something for consecutive cycles, but just total.  For example, those who are at the 75-100+ dollar total currently would be made Cardinals if the Donator titles were approved...even if they haven't made any donations recently.

If you want to donate, great.  If you don't want to or are currently unable to, that's okay because forum/discord posting and activity is equally important.

First off, you really shouldn't dismiss someone's concerns as 'nitpicking' just because you disagree with them.

Secondly, I would point out that all of our new people come through NationStates, for which having a Nation is definitely more important, in my opinon. It increases the number of nations in our region both making us more visible on a NationStates wide-basis and also increasing the amount of people that are shown when people are considering or community, which has a net positive effect in that it shows potentially new people -- with almost no other metric to go by in regards to what a 'good region' is -- that there is at least some reason to join the region and that the region isn't entirely dead. Even if they don't actively participate, they still help us on NationStates.

Next, you misread my point entirely. There are some people that can not donate, when I first joined this region I was in such a place that I couldn't have donated even if I wanted to. When you bring money anywhere you bring in certain social stigmas as well. While yes, there would be other options, it still can cause issues for people who would feel bad for donating, because instead of it being an optional thing that comes with some non-legal perks (such as a simple role on Discord), now you get tangible benefit from doing so. This also sets precedent for future expansions on things in the legal realm for payment, such as allowing actual money to be payed for access to certain areas that normally wouldn't be gated, requiring money to actually get citizenship or to run in elections, etc. While this will likely not come to pass, it sets a standard that says that this is permissible in some form and may very well be used in the future for justification for certain things.

Lastly: we already have zombie citizens. I'm sure it would be relatively easy to check how many citizens made 0 posts in the last calendar year, and it would certainly be a non-zero number.

I will note that on this, she's mainly talking about the idea that people would just continue to stay masked as a citizen each month because they'd set up a recurring payment...not the already present idea that people will just join and disappear, eventually being made into former citizens.

In reality though, I feel like the only people that would put enough faith in Wintreath to put up a monthly auto-payment would be the already active members.  I really can't see a lot of new people coming in and doing it off the bat...it's no Playstation Plus or xbox Live...nor is it even required in the first place.  So the idea of Zombie Citizens is a questionable point at best (Plus, what are Paragons but "Zombie Citizens" since they're permanent citizens even if they're virtually dead?).

I will say that it is pretty par for the course that you're completely against this, Chanku.

I remember when the idea of the post count alternative was introduced, you were against that too because you hated the idea of us trying to push away from being an NS-centric place.

Now you're praising it and considering post contribution to be far more worthwhile than a monetary one.

But that's okay, once this is approved by others and we move on to discuss yet another alternative down the road in the future...you'll be against that too and praising donation contribution as a "selfless and valuable contribution to the community" as a reasoning against it.

Paragonship is also an honour bestowed by the Community for great achivements within the Region and Community, it is not something that one pays for. Also, you're being rather hostile here, and attacking a Strawman. I'm not necessarily praising the 5 post requirement, I still think it is a mistake and think it should be removed. HOWEVER, I also recognize that is unlikely to happen. 

On another note: DAMN YOU AND YOUR TIMING. MAKING ME RESPOND TO FOUR POSTS AT ONCE DURING ME RESPONDING TO ONE POST!

Except it is nitpicking.  You're dismissing the idea of it because you personally don't see it as valuable compared to posting or even just having a nation that is currently alive.

And you completely missed my point.  If someone joins by Nationstates, great! The more the merrier.  My issue with your statement is pertaining to keeping those nations.  If a member is active on Nationstates and joins Wintreath, that's cool.  If a member joins from Nationstates but remains active on Wintreath, also cool.

But if a member joins from Nationstates, is active on neither platform, but simply keeps their nation alive and does nothing with it, then no, that's not contribution.  They aren't helping Wintreath in any way by keeping a nation alive and not actually doing anything in either area.  So no, I don't see having an NS nation as valuable as actually contributing to Wintreath, be it by post or by donation.

And no, I didn't miss your point, but perhaps you missed mine?

Again, $5 Dollars isn't the absolute requirement.  You could donate $1 if you want, or even just not donate and be an active poster.  If you can't donate, that's perfectly fine, not everyone is made of money, and from someone who has yet to donate because he has his own bills to pay...I can respect the idea that not everyone is going to be able to.

But for those who want to donate, they can.  If you don't have a dollar this month, wait till next month.  If you want to donate 5 dollars, you can save up.  These aren't game breaking perks being suggested, they're thank you gifts to people who are taking the time, breaking into their budget and using it to help keep Wintreath's gears running.

And again, for someone that I recall once suggested those "gated" areas that required payment access, you're actually contradicting yourself.  Wintermoot, nor anyone in this is suggesting such a thing, and if you recall in the past when it was suggested, it was pretty heavily shot down because that was seen as a pay to win tactic which we didn't want to get involved in.

All we're suggesting is small little thank you gifts for people who dug into their budget to help out. Badges, a point toward the grab bag, and a month of avoiding the Citizenship Check aren't big things.  The titles? They're nice little tidbits for people who donate certain amounts...but why shouldn't those people be given a title?  $25 dollars contribution to Wintreath to me means as much as someone revolutionizing one of the Cabinet areas.  It's a lot of money that someone decided to spend on us rather than a game or a movie...or possibly toward something they needed (like a new car or computer), and it's something that should be appreciated, just as $50 dollars should, and especially higher.

Unless Wintreath literally becomes a "Pay to join/access most of the forums" I fail to see the issue here, especially when we've shot down such actual ideas before.

Finally, WRT the financial contribution not being that much. I stand behind my statement. A lot of the expenses that Wintreath has, are expenses taken on willingly. They are not, strictly speaking, necessary. While this is not to trivialize what Wintermoot has done, Wintreath can likely continue on without a lot of what is being paid for -- albeit a difference would be felt and quality would likely be much lower. However without nations or active members, Wintreath would likely falter and start to collapse. While I do think the Forums and everything else that is a part of the expenses of Wintreath is important, I don't think it is justifiable to allow people to just pay their way through Wintreath just because of that.

Nothing is necessary, it's not even necessary for Wintreath to even be around when there's plenty of other places on Nationstates to go.  It's not necessary for Nationstates to even exist when there's far better games out there for people to play.  It's not necessary for people to pay for Online Multiplayer games per month when there's ones that do it for free.  It's not necessary to pay so much to make a good single player game when there's plenty of indie games that do it for less.  Hell, it's not even necessary to make any single player games when the market for multiplayer is much more lucrative.

Just because it's "not necessary" and "taken on willingly" doesn't cheapen it like you're trying to do with that statement.  If Nationstates decided to shut down today without warning, I doubt Wintreath would suddenly cease to exist in that same moment unless Wintermoot and the people just gave up.  Would we struggle a bit at first? Sure, as the forums was pretty NS oriented.  But the beauty of things is that A) A good messageboard can reshape itself to fit with the times, and even Wintreath can survive without its NS crutch if we wanted it to.  And B) There is an entire world outside of NS that Wintreath can advertise to.  This whole "NS is our livelihood" spiel is getting exceptionally tiresome.  NS isn't our livelihood, NS is just something that we happen to funnel from currently because it's convenient for getting new members easily.  But again, if Wintreath is really a good enough messageboard, we can survive without NS.

First off, no. In order to maintain Citizenship you would have to pay $5 a month (or meet the other two requirements) under the Proposal Wintermoot has brought forward. Literally, he said $5 minimum. Secondly, I literally didn't argue against titles or anything like that. I'm arguing against the proposal, the literal topic where it is about CITIZENSHIP for MONEY. A few additional points, a title, and maybe a special little space on the forum? Sure, I don't particularly care about that. I do care about our Government though, which is what being a Citizen gives you access too -- joining our Government. This is where I draw the line.

Next, my proposal (If I am recalling correctly) was on a small Donors-Only area on the forum. I don't particularly think this is too big. You pay to help maintain the forum, you get some perks on the forum. You get to have more general discussions with people who also paid. That's not really that big of a deal IMHO.

Finally, we are tied to NationStates Pengu. If we were not, then why have we not gone elsewhere? It's not like we do GP stuff that much anyway, we could literally pack up our bags and move to another community or go elsewhere, but guess what? All discussion on that have produced NO fruit. The handful of people that aren't brought in through NationStates are brought in through current members, which did join us from NationStates. Our entire community organization is based around NationStates and being a NationStates region. If we weren't attached to NationStates (or some other game similar to it, PnW/CN/Whatever) our community structure would be radically different. Half of our community is based around us being a NationStates Region, it is why we have a government.

Paragonship is also an honour bestowed by the Community for great achivements within the Region and Community, it is not something that one pays for. Also, you're being rather hostile here, and attacking a Strawman. I'm not necessarily praising the 5 post requirement, I still think it is a mistake and think it should be removed. HOWEVER, I also recognize that is unlikely to happen. 

I'm sorry, but I consider this:

don't like the idea of paying for Citizenship and while, sure, they help pay the bills it is -- in my opinion -- not as much of a contribution as 5 Posts on the Forum each month or having an NS Nation.

to be praising it when you used to be so vehemently against it when it was originally introduced.  If you were simply just acknowledging that removing it won't happen, it would have made more sense just not to mention it.

And again, it's an apples to oranges argument on Paragons.  In the short sight, paragons are people that just posted a lot and left.  In actuality, yes they achieved that through their time and contributions to the forums.  But in the end, they're still zombie citizens because unlike donators or even regular citizens, they don't have to do a thing to keep their citizenship...they can pop back in 5 years from now and still be citizens, whereas non paragons who disappear...and even donators who stop donating will become "Former" citizens after a period of time.

Likewise, people continue to be citizens each month because they either contribute or have an active nation.

But why is that more than someone that choose to spend $60 a year or $5 dollars a month?  Why are 5 posts this golden standard compared to spending actual hard earned money being the black stain?

Why is one contribution looked highly upon, while another is looked down upon?  You're trying to imply a slippery slope fallacy (again, one that you yourself even suggested at one point) that Wintreath may not even go toward just because we're trying to give credence to that other type of contribution.

It's honestly baffling.

Okay, I thought my issue with the name "Merchant" was a simple nitpick, but your whole reasoning against the whole thing is a nitpick.

Firstly, no.  Having an NS nation does not contribute anything if you're not active with said nation nor are you active on the forums.  I'd be more worried about someone that just continuously resurrects their nation and does nothing than I would about someone who helps pay for the site just because they want to keep citizenship.  At the very least with the latter, you're helping the site stay alive, whereas again with the former it does absolutely nothing.

Secondly, saying donations are "not as much of a contribution as 5 posts on the forums each month" is an apples to oranges argument.  The former, again, helps maintain the server and keep Wintreath alive.  The latter helps keep the server active and keeps Wintreath thriving.  They're both equally important, and if someone wants to contribute to more one side than the other, then it's equally valid.

Thirdly, if someone didn't want to donate, they're not going to.  If someone wants to donate, 5 dollars isn't a lot to save up for (and they can always donate less, we're just discussing ideas for if they donate up to $5 each time, as well as rewards for donating up to certain amounts total).  If they can't donate the current month, they can post 5 times or make sure their NS nation is alive, and then they can try again next month.  This isn't a Patreon where they HAVE to set up recurring payments each month (although it IS an option, it's not required).  The rewards being discussed aren't something for consecutive cycles, but just total.  For example, those who are at the 75-100+ dollar total currently would be made Cardinals if the Donator titles were approved...even if they haven't made any donations recently.

If you want to donate, great.  If you don't want to or are currently unable to, that's okay because forum/discord posting and activity is equally important.

First off, you really shouldn't dismiss someone's concerns as 'nitpicking' just because you disagree with them.

Secondly, I would point out that all of our new people come through NationStates, for which having a Nation is definitely more important, in my opinon. It increases the number of nations in our region both making us more visible on a NationStates wide-basis and also increasing the amount of people that are shown when people are considering or community, which has a net positive effect in that it shows potentially new people -- with almost no other metric to go by in regards to what a 'good region' is -- that there is at least some reason to join the region and that the region isn't entirely dead. Even if they don't actively participate, they still help us on NationStates.

Next, you misread my point entirely. There are some people that can not donate, when I first joined this region I was in such a place that I couldn't have donated even if I wanted to. When you bring money anywhere you bring in certain social stigmas as well. While yes, there would be other options, it still can cause issues for people who would feel bad for donating, because instead of it being an optional thing that comes with some non-legal perks (such as a simple role on Discord), now you get tangible benefit from doing so. This also sets precedent for future expansions on things in the legal realm for payment, such as allowing actual money to be payed for access to certain areas that normally wouldn't be gated, requiring money to actually get citizenship or to run in elections, etc. While this will likely not come to pass, it sets a standard that says that this is permissible in some form and may very well be used in the future for justification for certain things.

Lastly: we already have zombie citizens. I'm sure it would be relatively easy to check how many citizens made 0 posts in the last calendar year, and it would certainly be a non-zero number.

I will note that on this, she's mainly talking about the idea that people would just continue to stay masked as a citizen each month because they'd set up a recurring payment...not the already present idea that people will just join and disappear, eventually being made into former citizens.

In reality though, I feel like the only people that would put enough faith in Wintreath to put up a monthly auto-payment would be the already active members.  I really can't see a lot of new people coming in and doing it off the bat...it's no Playstation Plus or xbox Live...nor is it even required in the first place.  So the idea of Zombie Citizens is a questionable point at best (Plus, what are Paragons but "Zombie Citizens" since they're permanent citizens even if they're virtually dead?).

I will say that it is pretty par for the course that you're completely against this, Chanku.

I remember when the idea of the post count alternative was introduced, you were against that too because you hated the idea of us trying to push away from being an NS-centric place.

Now you're praising it and considering post contribution to be far more worthwhile than a monetary one.

But that's okay, once this is approved by others and we move on to discuss yet another alternative down the road in the future...you'll be against that too and praising donation contribution as a "selfless and valuable contribution to the community" as a reasoning against it.

Paragonship is also an honour bestowed by the Community for great achivements within the Region and Community, it is not something that one pays for. Also, you're being rather hostile here, and attacking a Strawman. I'm not necessarily praising the 5 post requirement, I still think it is a mistake and think it should be removed. HOWEVER, I also recognize that is unlikely to happen. 

On another note: DAMN YOU AND YOUR TIMING. MAKING ME RESPOND TO FOUR POSTS AT ONCE DURING ME RESPONDING TO ONE POST!

Except it is nitpicking.  You're dismissing the idea of it because you personally don't see it as valuable compared to posting or even just having a nation that is currently alive.

And you completely missed my point.  If someone joins by Nationstates, great! The more the merrier.  My issue with your statement is pertaining to keeping those nations.  If a member is active on Nationstates and joins Wintreath, that's cool.  If a member joins from Nationstates but remains active on Wintreath, also cool.

But if a member joins from Nationstates, is active on neither platform, but simply keeps their nation alive and does nothing with it, then no, that's not contribution.  They aren't helping Wintreath in any way by keeping a nation alive and not actually doing anything in either area.  So no, I don't see having an NS nation as valuable as actually contributing to Wintreath, be it by post or by donation.

And no, I didn't miss your point, but perhaps you missed mine?

Again, $5 Dollars isn't the absolute requirement.  You could donate $1 if you want, or even just not donate and be an active poster.  If you can't donate, that's perfectly fine, not everyone is made of money, and from someone who has yet to donate because he has his own bills to pay...I can respect the idea that not everyone is going to be able to.

But for those who want to donate, they can.  If you don't have a dollar this month, wait till next month.  If you want to donate 5 dollars, you can save up.  These aren't game breaking perks being suggested, they're thank you gifts to people who are taking the time, breaking into their budget and using it to help keep Wintreath's gears running.

And again, for someone that I recall once suggested those "gated" areas that required payment access, you're actually contradicting yourself.  Wintermoot, nor anyone in this is suggesting such a thing, and if you recall in the past when it was suggested, it was pretty heavily shot down because that was seen as a pay to win tactic which we didn't want to get involved in.

All we're suggesting is small little thank you gifts for people who dug into their budget to help out. Badges, a point toward the grab bag, and a month of avoiding the Citizenship Check aren't big things.  The titles? They're nice little tidbits for people who donate certain amounts...but why shouldn't those people be given a title?  $25 dollars contribution to Wintreath to me means as much as someone revolutionizing one of the Cabinet areas.  It's a lot of money that someone decided to spend on us rather than a game or a movie...or possibly toward something they needed (like a new car or computer), and it's something that should be appreciated, just as $50 dollars should, and especially higher.

Unless Wintreath literally becomes a "Pay to join/access most of the forums" I fail to see the issue here, especially when we've shot down such actual ideas before.

Finally, WRT the financial contribution not being that much. I stand behind my statement. A lot of the expenses that Wintreath has, are expenses taken on willingly. They are not, strictly speaking, necessary. While this is not to trivialize what Wintermoot has done, Wintreath can likely continue on without a lot of what is being paid for -- albeit a difference would be felt and quality would likely be much lower. However without nations or active members, Wintreath would likely falter and start to collapse. While I do think the Forums and everything else that is a part of the expenses of Wintreath is important, I don't think it is justifiable to allow people to just pay their way through Wintreath just because of that.

Nothing is necessary, it's not even necessary for Wintreath to even be around when there's plenty of other places on Nationstates to go.  It's not necessary for Nationstates to even exist when there's far better games out there for people to play.  It's not necessary for people to pay for Online Multiplayer games per month when there's ones that do it for free.  It's not necessary to pay so much to make a good single player game when there's plenty of indie games that do it for less.  Hell, it's not even necessary to make any single player games when the market for multiplayer is much more lucrative.

Just because it's "not necessary" and "taken on willingly" doesn't cheapen it like you're trying to do with that statement.  If Nationstates decided to shut down today without warning, I doubt Wintreath would suddenly cease to exist in that same moment unless Wintermoot and the people just gave up.  Would we struggle a bit at first? Sure, as the forums was pretty NS oriented.  But the beauty of things is that A) A good messageboard can reshape itself to fit with the times, and even Wintreath can survive without its NS crutch if we wanted it to.  And B) There is an entire world outside of NS that Wintreath can advertise to.  This whole "NS is our livelihood" spiel is getting exceptionally tiresome.  NS isn't our livelihood, NS is just something that we happen to funnel from currently because it's convenient for getting new members easily.  But again, if Wintreath is really a good enough messageboard, we can survive without NS.

First off, no. In order to maintain Citizenship you would have to pay $5 a month (or meet the other two requirements) under the Proposal Wintermoot has brought forward. Literally, he said $5 minimum. Secondly, I literally didn't argue against titles or anything like that. I'm arguing against the proposal, the literal topic where it is about CITIZENSHIP for MONEY. A few additional points, a title, and maybe a special little space on the forum? Sure, I don't particularly care about that. I do care about our Government though, which is what being a Citizen gives you access too -- joining our Government. This is where I draw the line.

Again, no. Again you're literally contradicting yourself by putting that part in parentheses.

If you only have to post 5 times in a month or have an active nation, then you would not have to pay $5 a month.  Likewise, if you don't do any of those things, you're not going to suddenly be hit with a $5 dollar charge out of nowhere...you'll just be branded a former citizen just like you will now if you fail to meet the current two requirements.  Yes, you absolutely can pay $1 if you want, $5 is only the requirement for the citizenship check, because I imagine Wintermoot is looking at it as $1 = 1 post, so $5 = 5 posts which is what is already required as an alternative to having a living nation.

And you're more worried about someone paying to keep citizenship joining our Government versus...oh I don't know, nations we've had in the past like Libertin or Govindia that could be government nuisances for free?? Really?  Again, I'm failing to see what the worry is here.

Next, my proposal (If I am recalling correctly) was on a small Donors-Only area on the forum. I don't particularly think this is too big. You pay to help maintain the forum, you get some perks on the forum. You get to have more general discussions with people who also paid. That's not really that big of a deal IMHO.

Okay, let me put on your tin foil hat for a moment.

So sure, let's say it starts off as a Donors-Only area.  Well, people are already getting pissed about that, because they're being blocked an area simply because they can't pay.

But why not make the area bigger?  Why not start hosting games for Donors-Only? Contests that only Donors can take part in?  Hell, why not starting to close off more areas of the forums and considering them "Donors Only" and eventually the only ones left are the Welcome area and the Howling Tavern (well, part of it, most of it would also become Donors Only).  At that point...why NOT make government affairs something only people who pay can participate in? You've already proven you'll block off parts of the forums, why not parts of the government at that point?

You see what I'm getting at?  I'd be more worried about creating a "Donors Only" forum than I would just waiving a citizenship check because...hell, there's already a hidden area, so my feelings would be absolutely warranted.

Finally, we are tied to NationStates Pengu. If we were not, then why have we not gone elsewhere? It's not like we do GP stuff that much anyway, we could literally pack up our bags and move to another community or go elsewhere, but guess what? All discussion on that have produced NO fruit. The handful of people that aren't brought in through NationStates are brought in through current members, which did join us from NationStates. Our entire community organization is based around NationStates and being a NationStates region. If we weren't attached to NationStates (or some other game similar to it, PnW/CN/Whatever) our community structure would be radically different. Half of our community is based around us being a NationStates Region, it is why we have a government.

I'm going to refrain from responding to this, simply because I feel like my response to this would be as "hostile" as you suggested I was being earlier.

But no, we aren't tied to Nationstates.  We were born from it, but eventually we'll have to leave the roost and survive on our own.

Okay, I thought my issue with the name "Merchant" was a simple nitpick, but your whole reasoning against the whole thing is a nitpick.

Firstly, no.  Having an NS nation does not contribute anything if you're not active with said nation nor are you active on the forums.  I'd be more worried about someone that just continuously resurrects their nation and does nothing than I would about someone who helps pay for the site just because they want to keep citizenship.  At the very least with the latter, you're helping the site stay alive, whereas again with the former it does absolutely nothing.

Secondly, saying donations are "not as much of a contribution as 5 posts on the forums each month" is an apples to oranges argument.  The former, again, helps maintain the server and keep Wintreath alive.  The latter helps keep the server active and keeps Wintreath thriving.  They're both equally important, and if someone wants to contribute to more one side than the other, then it's equally valid.

Thirdly, if someone didn't want to donate, they're not going to.  If someone wants to donate, 5 dollars isn't a lot to save up for (and they can always donate less, we're just discussing ideas for if they donate up to $5 each time, as well as rewards for donating up to certain amounts total).  If they can't donate the current month, they can post 5 times or make sure their NS nation is alive, and then they can try again next month.  This isn't a Patreon where they HAVE to set up recurring payments each month (although it IS an option, it's not required).  The rewards being discussed aren't something for consecutive cycles, but just total.  For example, those who are at the 75-100+ dollar total currently would be made Cardinals if the Donator titles were approved...even if they haven't made any donations recently.

If you want to donate, great.  If you don't want to or are currently unable to, that's okay because forum/discord posting and activity is equally important.

First off, you really shouldn't dismiss someone's concerns as 'nitpicking' just because you disagree with them.

Secondly, I would point out that all of our new people come through NationStates, for which having a Nation is definitely more important, in my opinon. It increases the number of nations in our region both making us more visible on a NationStates wide-basis and also increasing the amount of people that are shown when people are considering or community, which has a net positive effect in that it shows potentially new people -- with almost no other metric to go by in regards to what a 'good region' is -- that there is at least some reason to join the region and that the region isn't entirely dead. Even if they don't actively participate, they still help us on NationStates.

Next, you misread my point entirely. There are some people that can not donate, when I first joined this region I was in such a place that I couldn't have donated even if I wanted to. When you bring money anywhere you bring in certain social stigmas as well. While yes, there would be other options, it still can cause issues for people who would feel bad for donating, because instead of it being an optional thing that comes with some non-legal perks (such as a simple role on Discord), now you get tangible benefit from doing so. This also sets precedent for future expansions on things in the legal realm for payment, such as allowing actual money to be payed for access to certain areas that normally wouldn't be gated, requiring money to actually get citizenship or to run in elections, etc. While this will likely not come to pass, it sets a standard that says that this is permissible in some form and may very well be used in the future for justification for certain things.

Lastly: we already have zombie citizens. I'm sure it would be relatively easy to check how many citizens made 0 posts in the last calendar year, and it would certainly be a non-zero number.

I will note that on this, she's mainly talking about the idea that people would just continue to stay masked as a citizen each month because they'd set up a recurring payment...not the already present idea that people will just join and disappear, eventually being made into former citizens.

In reality though, I feel like the only people that would put enough faith in Wintreath to put up a monthly auto-payment would be the already active members.  I really can't see a lot of new people coming in and doing it off the bat...it's no Playstation Plus or xbox Live...nor is it even required in the first place.  So the idea of Zombie Citizens is a questionable point at best (Plus, what are Paragons but "Zombie Citizens" since they're permanent citizens even if they're virtually dead?).

I will say that it is pretty par for the course that you're completely against this, Chanku.

I remember when the idea of the post count alternative was introduced, you were against that too because you hated the idea of us trying to push away from being an NS-centric place.

Now you're praising it and considering post contribution to be far more worthwhile than a monetary one.

But that's okay, once this is approved by others and we move on to discuss yet another alternative down the road in the future...you'll be against that too and praising donation contribution as a "selfless and valuable contribution to the community" as a reasoning against it.

Paragonship is also an honour bestowed by the Community for great achivements within the Region and Community, it is not something that one pays for. Also, you're being rather hostile here, and attacking a Strawman. I'm not necessarily praising the 5 post requirement, I still think it is a mistake and think it should be removed. HOWEVER, I also recognize that is unlikely to happen. 

On another note: DAMN YOU AND YOUR TIMING. MAKING ME RESPOND TO FOUR POSTS AT ONCE DURING ME RESPONDING TO ONE POST!

Except it is nitpicking.  You're dismissing the idea of it because you personally don't see it as valuable compared to posting or even just having a nation that is currently alive.

And you completely missed my point.  If someone joins by Nationstates, great! The more the merrier.  My issue with your statement is pertaining to keeping those nations.  If a member is active on Nationstates and joins Wintreath, that's cool.  If a member joins from Nationstates but remains active on Wintreath, also cool.

But if a member joins from Nationstates, is active on neither platform, but simply keeps their nation alive and does nothing with it, then no, that's not contribution.  They aren't helping Wintreath in any way by keeping a nation alive and not actually doing anything in either area.  So no, I don't see having an NS nation as valuable as actually contributing to Wintreath, be it by post or by donation.

And no, I didn't miss your point, but perhaps you missed mine?

Again, $5 Dollars isn't the absolute requirement.  You could donate $1 if you want, or even just not donate and be an active poster.  If you can't donate, that's perfectly fine, not everyone is made of money, and from someone who has yet to donate because he has his own bills to pay...I can respect the idea that not everyone is going to be able to.

But for those who want to donate, they can.  If you don't have a dollar this month, wait till next month.  If you want to donate 5 dollars, you can save up.  These aren't game breaking perks being suggested, they're thank you gifts to people who are taking the time, breaking into their budget and using it to help keep Wintreath's gears running.

And again, for someone that I recall once suggested those "gated" areas that required payment access, you're actually contradicting yourself.  Wintermoot, nor anyone in this is suggesting such a thing, and if you recall in the past when it was suggested, it was pretty heavily shot down because that was seen as a pay to win tactic which we didn't want to get involved in.

All we're suggesting is small little thank you gifts for people who dug into their budget to help out. Badges, a point toward the grab bag, and a month of avoiding the Citizenship Check aren't big things.  The titles? They're nice little tidbits for people who donate certain amounts...but why shouldn't those people be given a title?  $25 dollars contribution to Wintreath to me means as much as someone revolutionizing one of the Cabinet areas.  It's a lot of money that someone decided to spend on us rather than a game or a movie...or possibly toward something they needed (like a new car or computer), and it's something that should be appreciated, just as $50 dollars should, and especially higher.

Unless Wintreath literally becomes a "Pay to join/access most of the forums" I fail to see the issue here, especially when we've shot down such actual ideas before.

Finally, WRT the financial contribution not being that much. I stand behind my statement. A lot of the expenses that Wintreath has, are expenses taken on willingly. They are not, strictly speaking, necessary. While this is not to trivialize what Wintermoot has done, Wintreath can likely continue on without a lot of what is being paid for -- albeit a difference would be felt and quality would likely be much lower. However without nations or active members, Wintreath would likely falter and start to collapse. While I do think the Forums and everything else that is a part of the expenses of Wintreath is important, I don't think it is justifiable to allow people to just pay their way through Wintreath just because of that.

Nothing is necessary, it's not even necessary for Wintreath to even be around when there's plenty of other places on Nationstates to go.  It's not necessary for Nationstates to even exist when there's far better games out there for people to play.  It's not necessary for people to pay for Online Multiplayer games per month when there's ones that do it for free.  It's not necessary to pay so much to make a good single player game when there's plenty of indie games that do it for less.  Hell, it's not even necessary to make any single player games when the market for multiplayer is much more lucrative.

Just because it's "not necessary" and "taken on willingly" doesn't cheapen it like you're trying to do with that statement.  If Nationstates decided to shut down today without warning, I doubt Wintreath would suddenly cease to exist in that same moment unless Wintermoot and the people just gave up.  Would we struggle a bit at first? Sure, as the forums was pretty NS oriented.  But the beauty of things is that A) A good messageboard can reshape itself to fit with the times, and even Wintreath can survive without its NS crutch if we wanted it to.  And B) There is an entire world outside of NS that Wintreath can advertise to.  This whole "NS is our livelihood" spiel is getting exceptionally tiresome.  NS isn't our livelihood, NS is just something that we happen to funnel from currently because it's convenient for getting new members easily.  But again, if Wintreath is really a good enough messageboard, we can survive without NS.

First off, no. In order to maintain Citizenship you would have to pay $5 a month (or meet the other two requirements) under the Proposal Wintermoot has brought forward. Literally, he said $5 minimum. Secondly, I literally didn't argue against titles or anything like that. I'm arguing against the proposal, the literal topic where it is about CITIZENSHIP for MONEY. A few additional points, a title, and maybe a special little space on the forum? Sure, I don't particularly care about that. I do care about our Government though, which is what being a Citizen gives you access too -- joining our Government. This is where I draw the line.

Again, no. Again you're literally contradicting yourself by putting that part in parentheses.

If you only have to post 5 times in a month or have an active nation, then you would not have to pay $5 a month.  Likewise, if you don't do any of those things, you're not going to suddenly be hit with a $5 dollar charge out of nowhere...you'll just be branded a former citizen just like you will now if you fail to meet the current two requirements.  Yes, you absolutely can pay $1 if you want, $5 is only the requirement for the citizenship check, because I imagine Wintermoot is looking at it as $1 = 1 post, so $5 = 5 posts which is what is already required as an alternative to having a living nation.

And you're more worried about someone paying to keep citizenship joining our Government versus...oh I don't know, nations we've had in the past like Libertin or Govindia that could be government nuisances for free?? Really?  Again, I'm failing to see what the worry is here.

Next, my proposal (If I am recalling correctly) was on a small Donors-Only area on the forum. I don't particularly think this is too big. You pay to help maintain the forum, you get some perks on the forum. You get to have more general discussions with people who also paid. That's not really that big of a deal IMHO.

Okay, let me put on your tin foil hat for a moment.

So sure, let's say it starts off as a Donors-Only area.  Well, people are already getting pissed about that, because they're being blocked an area simply because they can't pay.

But why not make the area bigger?  Why not start hosting games for Donors-Only? Contests that only Donors can take part in?  Hell, why not starting to close off more areas of the forums and considering them "Donors Only" and eventually the only ones left are the Welcome area and the Howling Tavern (well, part of it, most of it would also become Donors Only).  At that point...why NOT make government affairs something only people who pay can participate in? You've already proven you'll block off parts of the forums, why not parts of the government at that point?

You see what I'm getting at?  I'd be more worried about creating a "Donors Only" forum than I would just waiving a citizenship check because...hell, there's already a hidden area, so my feelings would be absolutely warranted.

Finally, we are tied to NationStates Pengu. If we were not, then why have we not gone elsewhere? It's not like we do GP stuff that much anyway, we could literally pack up our bags and move to another community or go elsewhere, but guess what? All discussion on that have produced NO fruit. The handful of people that aren't brought in through NationStates are brought in through current members, which did join us from NationStates. Our entire community organization is based around NationStates and being a NationStates region. If we weren't attached to NationStates (or some other game similar to it, PnW/CN/Whatever) our community structure would be radically different. Half of our community is based around us being a NationStates Region, it is why we have a government.

I'm going to refrain from responding to this, simply because I feel like my response to this would be as "hostile" as you suggested I was being earlier.

But no, we aren't tied to Nationstates.  We were born from it, but eventually we'll have to leave the roost and survive on our own.

The difference between a Forum Area and Citizenship is not the same. Citizenship is something regulated by Wintrean Law, Forum Areas are moderated by the Winter Nomad. Government is inherently separate from the actual Forum Organization and requiring payment to be part of the Government would have to be instituted by the Winter Nomad, which would be a bit of an overreach of their authority. They are not the same, and the fact that you would argue as such, is disappointing and shows a lack of understanding of where I am coming from.

I will say, personally, should this be implemented I won't be donating. I do not want the $5 Citizenship, I do not want it to exist, and I will not allow myself to profit from it. Also, should Wintreath leave NS I would likely leave as our entire structure would change and Wintreath would be lacking what draws me to it the most.

Further, the occasional annoyance (Libertarin and Govindia) are able to be handled. Just saying.

The difference between a Forum Area and Citizenship is not the same. Citizenship is something regulated by Wintrean Law, Forum Areas are moderated by the Winter Nomad. Government is inherently separate from the actual Forum Organization and requiring payment to be part of the Government would have to be instituted by the Winter Nomad, which would be a bit of an overreach of their authority. They are not the same, and the fact that you would argue as such, is disappointing and shows a lack of understanding of where I am coming from.

*slaps forehead*  I always feel like it's arguing with a wall with you.

Wintrean Law is not Eternal.  Wintermoot could choose to completely restructure things right now if he wanted to, and he'd have the power to do so as the forum creator.  He could rewrite the entirety of the forum rules, restructure the playing field of moderators, change the forums, and even destroy Wintreath if he wanted to on his whim alone.  Regardless of the absolute love you have for Wintrean Law and our current structure, it means absolutely nothing if the Forum Administrator decides to change it.

If he wants to add payment to government, he could do it.  There's absolutely no such thing as an "Overreach of authority" except for the illusion that we've been given that we have the power to limit what he does.  The fact that you truly believe that Wintermoot is held back by any actual limits of power is absolutely laughable at best.  And the fact that you always seem to argue "Wintreath Law" and how "Wintermoot can't do this" every time even after that fact is equally laughable since, again, Wintermoot has the power to do whatever he wants.

Now would he actually do those kinds of things?  Heck no, because despite him actually being able to do what he wants, he chooses to allow those laws to exist and actually give the forums a sense of democracy, even though he isn't in any way obligated to continue to doing so (And no, regardless of how you want to continue arguing "Wintrean Law" every time, he's absolutely not obligated to).

I see where you're coming from, but you fail to look at the realistic side of things.  Wintreath Law is a guideline that he chooses to follow, but it is absolutely not an immutable thing that he can't choose to throw out and change the rules on his own whim if he so chooses.

I will say, personally, should this be implemented I won't be donating. I do not want the $5 Citizenship, I do not want it to exist, and I will not allow myself to profit from it. Also, should Wintreath leave NS I would likely leave as our entire structure would change and Wintreath would be lacking what draws me to it the most.

You don't donate now with it not being a thing, so your argument is pretty weak there.  Your not donating if this gets implemented won't mean a damn thing since you don't even donate now.

And if you want to leave? That's your perogative.  You seem to be really the only person that's been vehemently against us becoming less of a NS-relied thing.  Every time legislation has been suggested, you're always the only one coming in guns blazing about Pro-Nationstates and how you don't want to change what you think isn't broken, even if the times themselves are changing around you.  There's nothing wrong with wanting to step away from, or becoming less reliant on something, but you seem to always treat it like it'll be the apocalypse should we choose to rely less on NS...which isn't true in the slightest.  If being an NS region is really what draws you to Wintreath the most out of...say...I don't know, every other messageboard out there affiliated with NS, then why are you here again? NS is only a small facet of what Wintreath is about, probably what I'd consider even the smallest, most insignificant facet compared to the plethora of other reasons why I'm drawn here (It's one of the most friendly and welcoming, one of the most embracing of different backgrounds).

And even without the NS attachment, it doesn't have to dramatically change.  We can still have our Government system, we'd just be taking out NS involvement (which is scarce anyways outside of our ambassador/integration system).  You make it sound like it'd be getting this huge face lift to where there'd be nothing left of what Wintreath used to be.  A non-NS forum can still exist with a functional government to continue to enforce the rules.  Wintreath certainly isn't the first messageboard I've been on to have one, and I've been on a few in the past that had absolutely no NS ties to it.

Further, the occasional annoyance (Libertarin and Govindia) are able to be handled. Just saying.

And someone who "paid" for their citizenship can be handled the same way.  You forget that it can be included in the laws that donations are just that...they don't offer any special protections from bad behavior.  A "paid" citizen decides to be a jerk?  They'll be handled just like everyone else because their payment first and foremost was a donation, not something that is refundable if they choose to be a bad member and get their citizenship revoked or themselves banned.

I will note that on this, she's mainly talking about the idea that people would just continue to stay masked as a citizen each month because they'd set up a recurring payment...not the already present idea that people will just join and disappear, eventually being made into former citizens.

Actually, I 100% meant 'people who are citizens but contribute nothing apart from merely ensuring the continuing existence of their nation'.
Exhibit A: Augustus Anumia, late of Ainurian infamy, who has been a member since 2015, has maintained the existence of their nation since then, and was last on our forums three years ago.
Exhibit B: binkthesismarck, member since 2017, maintained the existence of their nation, last on the forums 2 years ago.
DaRealA (2017).
DillyMackey (2018).
Jedi_Josh (2016).
Jeutnarg (2015).
(Incidentally I'm only familiar with 3 of these names, which...really is a further indicator IMO).
These are all just on the first page of the Citizen group member list, which doesn't include Cabinet members, Ops, anyone with a different group (which is fine since all those people are bound to be active anyway, otherwise they wouldn't have these different roles).

Ah, fair enough, and very much true.  Although I do have to ask, are they on the RMB at all?  Because even if they're not active on the messageboard, the RMB is still part of Wintreath and does indeed count (much like Discord activity still counts).

Or...are their nations even currently in Wintreath? Or was it just something neglected to be updated when they left?

Auggy? No.
New Beaton (the nation behind binkthesismarck) IIRC was helping with Z-Day, which is something.
Allouxia (the nation behind DaRealA) generally is but has fallen silent in recent months.
No knowledge of the other three apart from remembering their nations from multiple consecutive Z-Days.
But all of those nations remain in Wintreath and keep from CTEing, and so maintain their citizenships despite...well...not doing anything.
There's 2 others, since I figured I might as well look; one is Lily Poliseseul, who was one of the Ainurian refugees and who pokes her head onto the RMB every so often even if she was last on the forums in 2017; the other is Ravenswing, who I have no knowledge of, probably because they were last on the forums in 2015.
So of the 60 people only in the Citizen group, 8 are 'zombie' citizens. That's not an amazing sign, given that as of last activity check, we had "82 Citizens, including 5 Paragons (6.1%) and 8 non-nation Citizens (9.8%)."
Given that our Paragons, bar Amalya, all haven't been on in more than a year, that suggests that close to 1/6 of the citizen population hasn't been on the forum in more than a year.

Fair enough.  I guess since my first post was talking about donation title tiers...why not a citizenship one?

--Aspiring Citizen: Citizens who just joined Wintreath.  They don't have access to Government/Election topics, and must make a set number of posts (at least 5 posts I'd suggest) to be bumped up.  Citizens also can't run for office unless they're in "Active" status.  This might seem like a pretty small requirement, but I've come across a lot of new members that didn't even make 3 posts before they disappeared.
--Active Citizen: Citizens who meet the initial 5 post requirement.  They have access to Government/Election topics and are able to run for office.  While they must follow the minimum-posts-per-month rule to remain in Active status, anyone who makes a $5 donation in this tier will be exempt from the citizenship check that month.
--Inactive Citizen: Citizens who met the initial 5 post requirement, but failed to meet a later post requirement/donation exemption check.  They have access to Government/Election topics, but cannot run for office while in "Inactive" status.  This can be overcome simply by posting 5 times within the month of their return, or making the $5 donation that month.  Any Active Citizen who fails the Citizenship check but maintains a Nationstates nation in Wintreath will be considered an "Inactive Citizen"
--Former Citizen: Citizens who met the initial 5 post requirement, but failed to meet a later post requirement/donation exemption check, and either let their nation CTE or moved it away from the region.  This can be overcome by moving their nation back to Wintreath or creating a new one, as well as posting 5 times within the month of them returning/making the $5 donation that month.  Former Citizens would not have access to Government/Election threads, nor would not be able to participate in office until they regain their "Active" status.
--Paragons: Citizens who met the initial 5 post requirement and were given Paragon status by the Monarch/Storting for contributions to the region.  Paragons have access to the same areas as "Active Citizens" and, if they return, have no restrictions on running for office.  They also are exempt from any of the posting requirements/donation exemptions for citizenship.

I feel like this might be the better route anyways.  That way the only "Former" citizens are those that leave the region or let their nations CTE.  "Paid" membership would have to wait until a citizen was already considered "Active," and they'd also have to wait until they were "Active" before they could take part in elections.  Likewise, NS members who join will still have access to a majority of the forums, and likewise people who disappear would just be deemed "Inactive" like the UH members are when they do a disappearing act...and they wouldn't be able to run for office until they bumped their activity or contributed financially to the forums again.

I would absolutely oppose tiers, as we have many people active on the Discord that would not be counted under this. Further, we've had a similar requirement and it absolutely harmed us, and even Wintermoot called it a bad idea afterwards.

In any case I'll see myself out from this topic since y'all aren't getting what I am saying.

I feel rather iffy about this, but there's no real rational reason to be against this. My immediate concern was that it looked very close to people being able to pay for a vote, but realistically, a person willing to donate 5 dollars to the region is probably likely to want to participate in it, too.

My only other concern is that it can easily lead to a situation where you can practically pay to be a Paragon, since the only real benefit to being one is that your citizenship never lapses.

I'm very conflicted about this.

EDIT: One thing I'm really struck by is that even Moot thought there was potential for this to be controversial, and he was the one who suggested it. This can be misconstrued in so many ways. I can't even begin to think of how many different ways this can go. As I said on Discord, weird things happen to communities that start to offer certain benefits to people who pay.

That said, I suppose we can view this in a similar light to Patreon subscribers for certain content creators. At the end of the day, Wintreath is not free, and donations would not only help in keeping it afloat, but making it much cooler.

I have done nothing here but deepen my already conflicted opinion about this, but TL;DR, I can see the benefits and I can't immediately predict what could go wrong, but that doesn't mean we should rush into this, because money can do weird things to a community.