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I suspect that this may be a controversial subject, but I wanted to gauge interest in adding an additional method of maintaining Citizenship: having donated at least $5 in the prior month. I came up with this idea because as of the current Citizenship check two of the people whose nations have lapsed and haven't had at 5 posts on the forums are active donators (trader, HannahB), while a third is a past donator (Shadoke).

I believe that the point of the Citizenship maintenance requirement is that to show that Citizens are still committed to the region in some way. Originally, that was by maintaining a nation in the NationStates region, then we made it so that it could be shown by making at least five forum posts a month. I would be open to taking Discord activity into account as well if there was an automatic way to count it. I think this is more in line with adding another way to show commitment to the region, and does not make the region pay to win. However, if this idea proves to be controversial, I will not pursue it further.

I just wanted to see the reaction to the idea from both the Storting (which would have to pass such an idea) and the Citizenry in general.

On the one hand, my kneejerk response would be to reject this because it seems very "pay to win" to me, as you mentioned.

On the other, however, I do agree with the "commitment to the region" point, and what better way is there to show commitment than by giving money?

I'd need to think about this some more.

I support this. I'd argue that a $5 donation in a month is worth more than 5 posts towards the well-being of the region. Also, it's not pay-to-win since it just gives you citizenship (which is pretty bare minimum), not a government position or anything.

And counting Discord activity towards citizenship maintenance requirements seems fine as well -- as long as there's an easy way to check and not give more work to Moot on his citizenship checks. Maybe there's a way for a bot to count monthly Discord posts?

It's offering a convenience, just like we offered a convenience to people who are still on the forums but not part of NS anymore. I have to admit, I want to think of ways to show my appreciation to the donators, but not in a way where they have an unfair advantage over people who put their time and effort into the region...I think anyone's opinion will depend on whether they think I've accomplished that here or not.

Maybe @Wuufu has an idea that I haven't thought of, but the problem with Discord activity is that it's statistical and analytical abilities are pretty much non-existent. It has very versatile search feature that you can use to see how many Discord posts someone has made in a month, but that requires searching each person. The alternative is to use bots...MEE6 records overall activity in public channels, but it's not broken down by month and doesn't include more private channels like the Cabinet or NSFW channels.

Ignore my intial post, as I misread the beginning (for some reason I read it as "Pay 5 dollars for permanent citizenship).

I think that's fine as an alternative for the current requirements, though I think there should be potential other perks especially for continual donators.

If anything, here's some ideas:
*A donator badge to let people know that they're a supporter.
*Kudos on the main page or a list of all supporters (didn't we have this at one point?) N/m, this exists on the Donate page.
*Automatic points toward the grab bag for each donation (1 for each donation since silver games are usually $10)
*A special noble title (Such as Baron/Baroness) for a certain donation threshold (IE people who've donated up to or more than $25 for example)

And I can probably think of more that don't teeter on "pay to win" territory, or what people might consider to be such.  At the moment, those are currently it.

I think that's a great idea, but my only worry is this cheapening the idea of Paragonhood, aka the current tradition for making lifelong citzens.

Maybe a compromise might be that every dollar(? more? less? What's a good amount?) covers you for one monthly citizenship check. People who are making those monthly contributions would effectively be covered forever, but it still preserves the whole notion of 'lifelong citizenship' as something reserved for Paragons, even if (for the sake of argument) someone who contributes $1000 is effectively covered for the rest of their lives.

Doc, ignore that.  This doesn't suggest permanent citizenship, but just paying $5 a month as an alternative to keep current citizenship.  If anything though, they could do a bundle type of thing to reach that territory, like $50 to have yearly citizenship and saving 10 bucks that way (although that's bording into the "ptw" area).

But I think the idea of $5 as an alternative is fine.  It's basically saying that since you're supporting us this month, we'll support you!

The alternative is to use bots...MEE6 records overall activity in public channels, but it's not broken down by month and doesn't include more private channels like the Cabinet or NSFW channels.

I mean, for me personally though...that's fine.  If a person is active in those channels, they're usually active in other parts of Discord, so unless the number of posts required is high...I wouldn't imagine the counts from hidden channels would be a deciding factor in that total whether or not they were included.

Ignore my intial post, as I misread the beginning (for some reason I read it as "Pay 5 dollars for permanent citizenship).

I think that's fine as an alternative for the current requirements, though I think there should be potential other perks especially for continual donators.

If anything, here's some ideas:
*A donator badge to let people know that they're a supporter.
*Kudos on the main page or a list of all supporters (didn't we have this at one point?) N/m, this exists on the Donate page.
*Automatic points toward the grab bag for each donation (1 for each donation since silver games are usually $10)
*A special noble title (Such as Baron/Baroness) for a certain donation threshold (IE people who've donated up to or more than $25 for example)

And I can probably think of more that don't teeter on "pay to win" territory, or what people might consider to be such.  At the moment, those are currently it.

I think those are some great ideas! I say yes to them all.

I've been thinking of adding Baron/Baroness to the list of nobility titles though...if I did donator titles I was thinking something along the lines of Merchant of {town name} and then Doge at a larger amount. Don't know if those would be the exact titles, but I think titles with a plutocratic feel to them would be nice. Glory to the plutocracy!

Maybe a compromise might be that every dollar(? more? less? What's a good amount?) covers you for one monthly citizenship check. People who are making those monthly contributions would effectively be covered forever, but it still preserves the whole notion of 'lifelong citizenship' as something reserved for Paragons, even if (for the sake of argument) someone who contributes $1000 is effectively covered for the rest of their lives.

I picked $5/month because it requires a current commitment that's decently but hopefully not prohibitively significant. Three times in the past we've had someone donate $100 at once...one of those people haven't been involved here in three or four years, so it wouldn't make sense to maintain their Citizenship now even though they were very generous years ago. If they haven't shown any commitment in a long time and we feel that they should continue to be recognized, I think Paragonhood is more appropriate in those cases (understanding that this tangent came about as a result of a misunderstanding).

I mean, for me personally though...that's fine.  If a person is active in those channels, they're usually active in other parts of Discord, so unless the number of posts required is high...I wouldn't imagine the counts from hidden channels would be a deciding factor in that total whether or not they were included.

For some people they could be...there are some people who mostly only post in the NSFW community or the Cabinet channel, and they would be impacted. As far as I know though, MEE6 also only includes total posts, so it's not possible to get counts from only the last month for example. Wuufu is more knowledgeable in this area than me though, and he might have some ideas that would be better.

I think the only issue I have with the title of Merchant is that it suggests that they're selling something (at least, that's what I'd get from it), which is really just a nitpick.

I do, however, love the idea of a Doge/Magister/Magistrate title.  If we're going to do it in a tiered system, we could always go the religious route (especially with Potatoism being a thing recognized in Wintreath).  Start off with Bishop of (insert town) with a donation amount, move up to Archbishop of (insert town) when they hit a higher amount, and then cap off at Cardinal of (insert town) at an even higher amount.

Since it's a charitable cause that they're supporting, and religious figures are supposed to be seen as charitable and selfless figures...I think it'd be a nice tie-in title tier.

And we could make a Pope rank for the highest donator in order to peer pressure Crush!

I kid, I kid.

I really like the religious idea too, though I try to make clear that a donation isn't really charitable in the legal sense. When someone donates, the money goes to me...I pay the bills for the website and the MC server, but if there were any surplus (there hasn't been in the long run of things), it would pretty much go to me.

Well it's more the trickle effect though.  They know it's going to you, but in a way it's still for a good cause because they know that you're using it to maintain the site, Discord, and regional offshoots (such as the MC server).  And if it goes to you directly, then honestly it's still a good cause because it's giving you something back after all that you've put into the region.

No, it's not charitable in the sense that it's not going to some random organization we know nothing about, but that's okay.  I'd rather know exactly what's happening when I donate my money...rather than giving it to some secretive organization that says where your money goes, but in reality it just goes to lining someone's pockets.

You're at least upfront with "Hey, this will be used to maintain the site and various servers...and sometimes will go to me if maintenance for those areas have already been paid for."

So we know much more where our money is going.  If it pays for site bills, fantastic! If those are paid for and it helps with paying some of your own bills, also great! With as much time and money you put yourself into this place, there's nothing wrong with having a bit of help with it sometimes.

Personally, I'm rather against this idea. I don't like the idea of paying for Citizenship and while, sure, they help pay the bills it is -- in my opinion -- not as much of a contribution as 5 Posts on the Forum each month or having an NS Nation. Further, it would disadvantage people who may not be able to do that, for one reason or another and would just end up feeling bad for those who do that. It also leads to the issue of 'Zombie Citizens' as it were, Citizens that no longer even participate in any way but have a re-occurring payment setup that they either forgot about, or don't care to cancel.

Okay, I thought my issue with the name "Merchant" was a simple nitpick, but your whole reasoning against the whole thing is a nitpick.

Firstly, no.  Having an NS nation does not contribute anything if you're not active with said nation nor are you active on the forums.  I'd be more worried about someone that just continuously resurrects their nation and does nothing than I would about someone who helps pay for the site just because they want to keep citizenship.  At the very least with the latter, you're helping the site stay alive, whereas again with the former it does absolutely nothing.

Secondly, saying donations are "not as much of a contribution as 5 posts on the forums each month" is an apples to oranges argument.  The former, again, helps maintain the server and keep Wintreath alive.  The latter helps keep the server active and keeps Wintreath thriving.  They're both equally important, and if someone wants to contribute to more one side than the other, then it's equally valid.

Thirdly, if someone didn't want to donate, they're not going to.  If someone wants to donate, 5 dollars isn't a lot to save up for (and they can always donate less, we're just discussing ideas for if they donate up to $5 each time, as well as rewards for donating up to certain amounts total).  If they can't donate the current month, they can post 5 times or make sure their NS nation is alive, and then they can try again next month.  This isn't a Patreon where they HAVE to set up recurring payments each month (although it IS an option, it's not required).  The rewards being discussed aren't something for consecutive cycles, but just total.  For example, those who are at the 75-100+ dollar total currently would be made Cardinals if the Donator titles were approved...even if they haven't made any donations recently.

If you want to donate, great.  If you don't want to or are currently unable to, that's okay because forum/discord posting and activity is equally important.

Personally, I'm rather against this idea.

in a move which surprised nobody, the resident Wintrean-political arch-conservative states her opposition to a new idea
It is a little mean in phrasing but come on, Chanku, you're not exactly chomping at the bit for serious, or really any, change at all.
Frankly, if people were concerned about that, they'd have sounded off by now...and since this isn't a merely administrative decision, but a legal one that must necessarily alter the Citizenship and Demonym act, it will present even further opportunities to sound off about complaints.
Lastly: we already have zombie citizens. I'm sure it would be relatively easy to check how many citizens made 0 posts in the last calendar year, and it would certainly be a non-zero number. Sure, maintenance of nationhood is great on the NS side for pulling people in, but doesn't do as much, IMO, as providing help towards the maintenance of...well...all the other things the region does and Moot pays for.