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What are your overall political tendencies?

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Political Leanings of Wintreans
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Stacky
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  • In a perfect world, I suppose. But many politicians - and the people they represent - hold their religion and moral values (that they may or may not derive from that religion) very close to the chest. So is it fair to ask all of them, or even force them, to forget all of that or not consider it at all, in the process of passing sweeping legislation that goes directly against what they believe?

    In the instance of the Hobby Lobby case, I was not in support of the decision. But I can still see the reason why it was the way it was.



    Stacky
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    Stark
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  • Dennis Skinner: "Half the members opposite are crooks." (talking about the Conservative MP's).

    Mr Speaker: "Please withdraw."

    Dennis Skinner: "My apologies Mr Speaker. Half the members opposite aren't crooks."
    Stark
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    Jone
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  • In a perfect world, I suppose. But many politicians - and the people they represent - hold their religion and moral values (that they may or may not derive from that religion) very close to the chest. So is it fair to ask all of them, or even force them, to forget all of that or not consider it at all, in the process of passing sweeping legislation that goes directly against what they believe?

    In the instance of the Hobby Lobby case, I was not in support of the decision. But I can still see the reason why it was the way it was.

    Is it fair that their religion and moral values have serious negative implications?
    Why should I not elect for post birth abortion because some silly sky fearer tells me it's wrong?
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    Jone
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    Stacky
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  • At the same time, why should I be forced by the government to pay for a very expensive contraceptive that I firmly believe is unethical? [Personally I don't, but I'm giving an example.] Serious negative implications? It's not like an IUD is the only means of preventing pregnancy.

    It goes both ways, and the Supreme Court went with the freer option. That's the price of living in a free country. In Europe, the government would force them to pay for the cost, against their will. It may be more ethical [which is arguable] but just less American.



    Stacky
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  • That's a whole nother' issue, but I see your point.
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    Seroim
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  • At the same time, why should I be forced by the government to pay for a very expensive contraceptive that I firmly believe is unethical? [Personally I don't, but I'm giving an example.] Serious negative implications? It's not like an IUD is the only means of preventing pregnancy.

    Because when it comes to the welfare of many versus the beliefs of a single entity when we are considering a clash of human rights, the collective interest should nearly always win out against individual religious beliefs. Religious freedom should also lose when its application creates a discriminatory situation. It's a simple utilitarian calculation. It's not like people were asking David Green to get an abortion for his wife, but they were asking him to respect their own choice to seek whatever treatment they want under a government-sponsored program. Emergency contraceptives are expensive and Hobby Lobby is just another minimum wage shop. It's completely against the spirit of the ACA to begin with, and there was many ways this could have been fixed without making it so employees have to subsidize their employer's religious beliefs. Besides, emergency contraceptives may not be covered, but vasectomies still are, so it even creates an environment where women are discriminated against in their right to the security of their bodies versus males, who can enjoy being snipped and blue penis pills on Hobby Lobby's dime. I think this is a serious negative implication, and that's before going through how the ruling might be used by other religious groups.

    That being said, the biggest problem with the ruling are not the facts : it's not that it grants a company the right not to fund emergency contraceptive coverage, but that the way a religious belief is defined and the burden of proof imposed on the government to justify violating a religious belief makes it so said burden is completely asymmetrical. The government has by far the biggest share of the burden : all the complainant has to prove is that it holds a sincere religious belief. It does not matter if it's reasonable (emergency contraceptives are not abortions and do not mechanically function in the same way, but that didn't matter to the Supreme Court even though Hobby Lobby framed it that way : so basically religious belief > science) or if it's a commonly held doctrine. Meanwhile, the government has to prove a litany of things under a very harsh strict scrutiny examination.

    This makes it so that in effect, nearly any religious belief can invalidate many, many laws, even of general applicability. In a sense, it creates a two-tiered legal system where people can use their religious beliefs to choose which laws they will obey and which laws they won't. Ginsburg said it brilliantly : the Supreme Court has created a minefield. We have not heard the last of the disastrous effects of this ruling.

    A second problem is that this was the first time the courts have allowed a closely-held corporation to enjoy the right to religious freedom. How can a company have a religion? Does it have a mind, can it think? When are the American courts going to stop giving human rights to corporations? It's sad enough that they are allowed to dump unlimited funds into super-PACs without even having to disclose how much or even who they are because spending money is the way a corporation supposedly exercises its freedom of conscience, but now we also allow profit and religion to coincide. The Supreme Court would have rejected the argument that Hobby Lobby saves money by paying the ACA penalty versus providing coverage, so how are we even to determine if the religious belief of a corporation is sincere or not in this light? Is spending money not the way a corporation exercises its new right to freedom of religion?

    And the irony is that Hobby Lobby invests in the company that produces Plan B, so they make money via dividends on the sale of these contraceptives. In essence, the Supreme Court has even allowed religious people to pick in which situations their beliefs apply and in which situations they don't, completing the full "pick 'n' choose" cycle.

    It's much like religion itself on that point, where the "faithful" pick Bible verses they like and just forget about those they find irritating, such as this one : "Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him." Mark 12:17.

    But I digress.

    The only way this is at all acceptable is if we consider that a company and the person running it are two distinct entities : but the courts have affirmed just the opposite, and to my knowledge it has not allowed the employees in the case to object to the sincerity of the company's religious belief on that point either. It seems religion for corporations is sacrosanct as long as there is profit on the way.

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    It goes both ways, and the Supreme Court went with the freer option. That's the price of living in a free country. In Europe, the government would force them to pay for the cost, against their will. It may be more ethical [which is arguable] but just less American.

    But it isn't the freer option. It's freer for one person, but many more people's freedom is stymied. The freer option would be to allow as many people as possible to enjoy freedom. Allowing religious people to discriminate against people or things they do not like is the antithesis of freedom because this ruling raises freedom of religion to the rank of primus inter pares among human rights, making it so the right to religious freedom will almost always win out over any other right, and dangerously slides religion in government by the backdoor while they are at it. Almost every human rights issue pits two rights against each other. It's unfair for one to almost always take precedence over the others, especially as freedom of religion generally concerns a smaller group than the people who would want to enjoy the other right. It's also unfair to allow a group to, as I said, pick and choose the laws that apply to them, because it gives them more freedom than other groups. More freedom for a group is basically less freedom for everyone else especially if the lucky group is able to use its freedom to restrict the freedom of others. We are all supposed to be equal under the law - to me this is the absolute right, indispensable to the rule of law and it should be heavily protected.

    For an archaic invention that is becoming less and less relevant as humans accrue knowledge and expertise, religion has a very, very powerful place, especially if as in Hobby Lobby it is allowed to bitch slap science when the two clash. Evangelicals have a very powerful lobby in the US and numerous spokespeople in the judicial arena so I fully expected the ruling to go the way it did. In fact, we may live long enough to see the United States become a theocracy, as the Evangelicals continue to take control of the GOP and a fair bit or more of the Tea Party faction inside. Our salvation will come in the form of libertarians or fiscal conservatives, who can be (and generally are) socially progressive, recognizing the danger and abandoning the ship before it sinks. I know this sounds like something a moonbat would say, but objectively it isn't that far off. Many religious organizations, especially the fundamentalist ones, are very politicized (spoiler : they should not be), and in fact I would recommend the documentary "Jesus Camp" (it's on Netflix) for anyone who wants to know what kind of war machine the Evangelical lobby is. Any irreligious or simply secular person that isn't very scared for their country after watching this documentary has his/her head in the sand.
    « Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 04:16:09 AM by Seroim »
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    Leo the First
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    Stacky
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  • Whew, quite a refute :) Perhaps you missed my earlier post, where I did in fact say that I was against the courts' decision. For, in fact, most of the reasons you mentioned here. You make some very solid points, Seroim, but nonetheless I have to disagree with some...

    This makes it so that in effect, nearly any religious belief can invalidate many, many laws, even of general applicability. In a sense, it creates a two-tiered legal system where people can use their religious beliefs to choose which laws they will obey and which laws they won't. Ginsburg said it brilliantly : the Supreme Court has created a minefield. We have not heard the last of the disastrous effects of this ruling.

    I hardly think that's a fair claim to make in light of the decision. The court understood what it did and by no means has religion suddenly become a get-out-of-jail free card. Hobby Lobby was a bit different - you can hardly consider a private, family owned and operated business to be on the same level as GM.

    But I did have a problem with these:

    But it isn't the freer option. It's freer for one person, but many more people's freedom is stymied. The freer option would be to allow as many people as possible to enjoy freedom.

    What freedoms exactly are being suppressed by the ruling? The employees' freedom-of-their-right-to-a-specific-part-of-their-medical-coverage is being taken away? So that would mean all employees are entitled to this coverage against their employer's will. And that becomes a separate argument altogether. What should be on that ever-growing list of things that employees are entitled to from their employers? Personally, I think IUDs should be on that list - again, I was against the ruling - but that's a far weaker basis than "The government is forcing our company to pay for even more stuff that we don't want or need to pay for, AND it's just straight up wrong to us." That sounds a lot more like a suppression of freedom to me.

    Allowing religious people to discriminate against people or things they do not like is the antithesis of freedom because this ruling raises freedom of religion to the rank of primus inter pares among human rights, making it so the right to religious freedom will almost always win out over any other right, and dangerously slides religion in government by the backdoor while they are at it.

    Discriminating against things they don't like? Or not supporting things they think are wrong? If they ruled the other way, they would be forced to support things they think are wrong. And then you could use the exact same hierarchy-of-human-rights argument in reverse. See how it goes both ways? Again, it isn't so much freedom of religion here, or that religion holds higher precedence over other human rights. Because it doesn't. But the freedoms that would've been violated if the ruling was not in favor of Hobby Lobby would be higher in number and a lot less vague.

    So I still think the court went with the freer option. And I still think that this was the wrong decision.

    And lastly -

    Evangelicals have a very powerful lobby in the US and numerous spokespeople in the judicial arena so I fully expected the ruling to go the way it did. In fact, we may live long enough to see the United States become a theocracy, as the Evangelicals continue to take control of the GOP and a fair bit or more of the Tea Party faction inside.

    That's plainly ridiculous. It's 2014, religion is on the decline (maybe not as much in the US but certainly here in Europe), and the US has never once been a theocracy. A bunch of retarded evangelicals that believe a 2000 year old explanation of everything is still accurate are not going to take over the world. :P



    And last but not least...

    I scrolled up a bit and read your previous post, to which my eyes widened a little. The one that ended with this:

    The eventual goal would be to order society in such a way that makes true communism possible.

    I'm sorry, but that's plainly impossible. I can give you about 4.5 shitzillion examples of communism catastrophically failing, time and time again throughout history, with evidence so clear and obvious it's almost comical. When the government tries its hand in doing other things that are distinctly not governing, it majorly sucks at it. It's not even a question.



    Stacky
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    Seroim
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  • Whew, quite a refute :) Perhaps you missed my earlier post, where I did in fact say that I was against the courts' decision. For, in fact, most of the reasons you mentioned here. You make some very solid points, Seroim, but nonetheless I have to disagree with some...

    I often argue just for argumentation's sake. Sometimes I argue with people who fully agree with me, in case one of us can bring additional arguments that one of us hadn't thought about. Please don't think I'm trying to come off as brash or overly aggressive, that isn't my intention. I just like arguing for the intellectual stimulation it provides.

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    I hardly think that's a fair claim to make in light of the decision. The court understood what it did and by no means has religion suddenly become a get-out-of-jail free card. Hobby Lobby was a bit different - you can hardly consider a private, family owned and operated business to be on the same level as GM.

    That the court understood exactly what it was doing is what is so scary with this ruling. Scalia is a hardcore religious fundamentalist and he leads a band of cronies on the Court that are two fingers away from being simple yes-men. Alito's ruling was definitely influenced by Scalia's radical ideas, if you read between the lines, and why wouldn't it be? They are ideological allies. And yes, in essence, religion has become a get out of trouble free card in the States. Maybe not every jail, and not in every situation, but enough to make the situation unacceptable and unfair to everyone else.

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    What freedoms exactly are being suppressed by the ruling? The employees' freedom-of-their-right-to-a-specific-part-of-their-medical-coverage is being taken away? So that would mean all employees are entitled to this coverage against their employer's will. And that becomes a separate argument altogether. What should be on that ever-growing list of things that employees are entitled to from their employers? Personally, I think IUDs should be on that list - again, I was against the ruling - but that's a far weaker basis than "The government is forcing our company to pay for even more stuff that we don't want or need to pay for, AND it's just straight up wrong to us." That sounds a lot more like a suppression of freedom to me.

    Well, the first right/freedom to be taken away, and a fundamental one that is at the base of any Western democracy, is our right to all be equal under the law, as I've explained in my other post.

    There are really only two cotisations that should be asked of the employer in regards to their employees : an union contribution due to the Rand formula and a contribution into the national pension plan, both equal to the employee's share. But as long as Americans decide to beat around the bush and institute this "universal health care but not really" nonsense, comprehensive health coverage should definitely be on the list. The ACA gave rise to the right of every American to hold health care insurance that is as uniform as possible. That's another right gone.

    It also affects the putative rights to privacy and bodily integrity as given the circumstances where Hobby Lobby pays peanuts and the vast majority of working class American households are cribbled with debts, it gets to decide what goes into an employee's body and what doesn't. I honestly wouldn't whine nearly as much if HL employees had the potential means to get the Plan B themselves, but this stuff is really expensive and 7,25$ an hour doesn't go very far these days.

    And of course, the right of women not to be discriminated against because of their sex. Why are vasectomies covered but not IUDs or Plan B?

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    Discriminating against things they don't like? Or not supporting things they think are wrong? If they ruled the other way, they would be forced to support things they think are wrong. And then you could use the exact same hierarchy-of-human-rights argument in reverse. See how it goes both ways? Again, it isn't so much freedom of religion here, or that religion holds higher precedence over other human rights. Because it doesn't. But the freedoms that would've been violated if the ruling was not in favor of Hobby Lobby would be higher in number and a lot less vague.

    You misunderstand. The crux of the argument is that the Supreme Court has shown that basically, they don't give a crap about what the complainant thinks about right and wrong. It's impossible to claim that you don't support x, you think it's morally wrong and you don't want to pay for it when you're receiving money from the company that produces x via dividends, some indirectly coming from the sale of that very x. It's also illogical to have religion butt with science regarding what is a scientific fact (that emergency contraceptives and IUDs do not cause abortions) and have religion win unscathed just because the complainant thinks that science is wrong. All the courts care about is if the belief can be construed as religious, and if it is "sincere" (which criteria they don't seem to put much stock in.)

    This is why this ruling has elevated freedom of religion so high above every other right, because it is impossible to attack the religious belief directly since it was made ironclad by the courts, and on the reverse, the burden of proof to prove religious exercise is laughably low. You can always make the argument that AR-15s aren't covered by the Second Amendment, that being in a friend's car invalidates your right to privacy, but you cannot attack any religious belief, ever. They do not have to be reasonable or even logically possible, everything under the sun is protected and burdening the exercice of even the most extreme belief requires the government to submit itself to strict scrutiny, which is extremely strict indeed (in Canada, the courts struck down our equivalent of strict scrutiny as applied to religion because it was too harsh a criteria, just to put it in context for you). Religion is this society's last golden calf.

    We are allowing a fundie Christian to discriminate against women openly. I do not see what's so vague about that, and I'm pretty sure there are more female employees than there are David Greens at Hobby Lobby. I'm not a fan of slippery slope arguments (or fallacies) usually, but the question is valid in this case : what's next, now that the courts have opened to door to every complaint about nearly any law, save tax laws, on a religious basis? What other law will be bent next for the benefit of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Pastafarians? As I said, the facts in this case aren't the problem, it's the whole philosophy underlining it.
     
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    That's plainly ridiculous. It's 2014, religion is on the decline (maybe not as much in the US but certainly here in Europe), and the US has never once been a theocracy. A bunch of retarded evangelicals that believe a 2000 year old explanation of everything is still accurate are not going to take over the world. :P

    It is not so ridiculous, though.

    Evangelical Christians represent a quarter of the total US population, they reproduce more than average, they are a completely monolithic voting block and they are policitized to the extreme. If religion was such a passé thing, there would not even be a debate on teaching creationism in public schools, nor a debate on mandatory school prayer, and the ridiculous assertion that "America is a Christian nation" that is disproved by reading more than 2 pages of the Federalist Papers would not exist.

    I'm not saying they are taking over the world, but they are on their way to strangling the US into submission.

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    I'm sorry, but that's plainly impossible. I can give you about 4.5 shitzillion examples of communism catastrophically failing, time and time again throughout history, with evidence so clear and obvious it's almost comical. When the government tries its hand in doing other things that are distinctly not governing, it majorly sucks at it. It's not even a question.

    We do not really know as all attempts to introduce communism were either horribly misguided or fraught with outside intervention. In fact, communism has existed in nature : primitive communism in our old hunter-gatherer societies. All that's left to do is legibly translate it to today's context.
    Seroim
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  • No worries, I love a good debate.

    The US Supreme Court does really have far more power than it should nowadays. Of all the branches, the system allows the SC to get away with the most, and so it does. But I seriously doubt that it can blatantly ignore the law on the basis of any religious claim. You just can't pull that off with half, maybe even less than half, of the nation's - and the federal government's - support.

    The right to privacy and bodily integrity could be cited on pretty much any company vs. individual decision, which always tends to be based solely on where you sit on the political spectrum. Given that I'm more to the right, I'll say that it's the company's decision on how they spend their money and they aren't at the mercy of those they employ to fully serve them. So I don't consider this a violation of that right. The other three you mentioned are quite valid though, and also, it's just the right thing to do. The Republican response is consistently along the lines of, 'Hey, if you don't like it, don't have sex or start firin' out babies' which just pisses me off. It's simply being an asshole human being. That's my major problem with it.

    The burden of proof with religion is so low simply because of its design (and that's one of the very many reasons why religion and its design is incredibly stupid), but on the flip-side, that's pretty much asking for attack, not preventing it. Again, I seriously doubt this case had as much to do about religion as so many make it out to be. It provides the basis of HL's moral integrity but it's really about the morals themselves, not where they came from. And the decision was that simple.

    Holy shit, that's accurate. 91 million people. That's a bit unsettling. Luckily for the rest of the US, they're all neatly sectioned off in the bottom right corner of the country where they can all fuck off from the rest of everyone else. And it still isn't cause of concern, personally. That number won't be disproportionally growing, and the sensible part of the country will be able to keep them in check. Glad I left the US anyway. 

    ....So, you're citing our ancestral, nomadic, primitive economic system as one that'll work now? Communism is a really beautiful idea, honest, but it can never get past that. In the real world, with real people, it just can't be done.

    And with that I think I need a nap.



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  • No worries, I love a good debate.

    Glad to hear.

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    The US Supreme Court does really have far more power than it should nowadays. Of all the branches, the system allows the SC to get away with the most, and so it does. But I seriously doubt that it can blatantly ignore the law on the basis of any religious claim. You just can't pull that off with half, maybe even less than half, of the nation's - and the federal government's - support.

    But whether a ruling is applied or not is not a question of popular support. Common law rulings are binding on the lower courts so it's a precedent in fact, philosophy and interpretation that will always, always be followed until the Supreme Court itself overturns it. It's called res judicata, you probably know about it. Since law does not take into account anything but law, support from the executive and/or population is not necessary and they will follow res judicata to the letter every time.

    It takes just one bad Supreme Court to pollute jurisprudence for decades. It's a pretty sad state of fact.

    You are right though, this is partly why the Supreme Court can get away with most things, they have a lot of power because they do not have to care about support, especially since courts have a tradition of deference, which makes law so conservative generally as a profession. Even terrible rulings take a long time to finally be overturned by another composition of SC, and ideological judges on the Supreme Court can do a fucklot of damage via judicial activism. They are just so effective.

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    The right to privacy and bodily integrity could be cited on pretty much any company vs. individual decision, which always tends to be based solely on where you sit on the political spectrum. Given that I'm more to the right, I'll say that it's the company's decision on how they spend their money and they aren't at the mercy of those they employ to fully serve them. So I don't consider this a violation of that right. The other three you mentioned are quite valid though, and also, it's just the right thing to do. The Republican response is consistently along the lines of, 'Hey, if you don't like it, don't have sex or start firin' out babies' which just pisses me off. It's simply being an asshole human being. That's my major problem with it.

    I agree with that fully as in I agree to disagree.  ;)

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    The burden of proof with religion is so low simply because of its design (and that's one of the very many reasons why religion and its design is incredibly stupid), but on the flip-side, that's pretty much asking for attack, not preventing it. Again, I seriously doubt this case had as much to do about religion as so many make it out to be. It provides the basis of HL's moral integrity but it's really about the morals themselves, not where they came from. And the decision was that simple.

    All the legal principles involved have to do with religion and the SCourt's definition of it. They are what creates the minefield eluded by Ginsburg.

    Agree re burden of proof of religion.

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    Holy shit, that's accurate. 91 million people. That's a bit unsettling. Luckily for the rest of the US, they're all neatly sectioned off in the bottom right corner of the country where they can all fuck off from the rest of everyone else. And it still isn't cause of concern, personally. That number won't be disproportionally growing, and the sensible part of the country will be able to keep them in check. Glad I left the US anyway. 

    It is a good thing that they are limited to one part of the country, but they still have a huge amount of power. They have infiltrated the Tea Party along with the Kochs and profit from the Koch-funded massive astroturf field.

    I honestly would not like to be American in this day and age.

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    ....So, you're citing our ancestral, nomadic, primitive economic system as one that'll work now? Communism is a really beautiful idea, honest, but it can never get past that. In the real world, with real people, it just can't be done.

    Well, I like to keep it simple.

    But once human productivity is strong enough to sustain communism, it would be pretty nice to see it happen.

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    And with that I think I need a nap.

    Good show.
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    Seroim
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  • What an otherworldly comment;

    "But once human productivity is strong enough to sustain communism, it would be pretty nice to see it happen."
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    Seroim
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  • What an otherworldly comment;

    "But once human productivity is strong enough to sustain communism, it would be pretty nice to see it happen."

    Elaborate.
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  • I am a Left-Libertarian, which made me uncomfortable choosing the "reactionary" category into which all libertarians were lumped....so I chose "other."
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  • I would describe myself as centre-left on a political spectrum (Yes that is the correct way to spell 'centre' I will think you find  ;))

    Sometimes I find myself more towards the right or more towards the left on certain issues. I am committed internationalist and believe that the 'national interest' should not stop a country helping anybody, especially when they have the means to help the people of another country.
    Stark
    • Posts: 732
    • Karma: 58
    • Former Citizen
    • Pronouns
      He/Him/His
      Familial House
      Meindhert
      Wintreath Nation
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