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I mean, he didn't just take flak for defending Wintermoot, but community ideals like giving Gov so many chances, too.

That said, it is clear that the title is a very personal thing.

To be fair, that was more in tune with defending Wintermoot's decisions as well, given how much he (like a few of us) disliked Gov after a specific point and wanted him gone much sooner, I'm at least pretty sure.

The only reason he didn't push harder earlier is more likely because, again like at least a few of us, he supported Wintermoot's decision in trying to help Gov rather than condemning him...until helping him hit its limit.

Edit: that being said I do wholeheartedly support the commendation and the idea of a title to follow.  I just think that "Champion of the Just" just isn't the most fitting.

To be fair, that was more in tune with defending Wintermoot's decisions as well, given how much he (like a few of us) disliked Gov after a specific point and wanted him gone much sooner, I'm at least pretty sure.

The only reason he didn't push harder earlier is more likely because, again like at least a few of us, he supported Wintermoot's decision in trying to help Gov rather than condemning him...until helping him hit its limit.

Edit: that being said I do wholeheartedly support the commendation and the idea of a title to follow.  I just think that "Champion of the Just" just isn't the most fitting.

With all due respect, it wasn't my decision to keep him here, it was our decision. There were a number of calls to take action against Govindia during the time he was here. Chanku himself put out an initiative proposal as early as September 2014 to have him removed, which garnered no signatures except his own. You put forward a revocation act in April 2015 that you then withdrew support from while it was being voted on.

I'm not shrinking from my role in his presence here. We may have given him too many chances and let him linger on too long, but I don't regret admitting him here and giving him the opportunity to prove and redeem himself. I'm proud that we stood by our inclusive principles, and I've said as much before, even when this came up in Lazarus. But it wasn't just my decision...deep down, a lot of us wanted Gov to overcome his issues and be a good part of our community, that's why so many of us tried to help him realize why people were so put off by his behaviour and help him to overcome it. I still feel like we did the right thing. But it wasn't just my decision, it was a community decision...one that was renewed over the course of years, until we all finally realized that it was beyond our ability to help him.

Maybe I was the one that was there and that they wanted to get rid of, but make no mistake, it was an attack on the entire community. It was an attack on everyone who supported Gov being in our community at some point, because in their opinion anyone that would do so isn't capable of good judgement. It was an attack on everyone who was part of the IRC channel for the first few years, because I was far from the only person that enjoyed the sorts of conversations they used as 'evidence'. The only slander that was truly personal was the claim that I founded Wintreath because I was power-hungry and bullying people in Spiritus...in that case, yeah, I suppose he was mostly defending me. But would you have rather he said nothing and let the idea that our community was founded for such petty and untrue reasons go unanswered?

The fact of the matter is, Chanku was never under any obligation to defend me or us...had he not, he probably would be a much more prominent person in NSGP right now, but he did...in sacrificing his own standing, he proved his dedication to this community and our principles, even in situations that he personally disapproved of, such as with Gov. Given that, I think it does fit...he has championed this community and the just things we have tried to do here, not just me personally.

I can't believe I'm being forced to be a voice for peace, but I suppose stranger things have happened.

It is definitely true that we all had a huge roll to play in Gov's continued presence. Looking back, I still regret that the first revocation attempt I happened to be a part of (the one put forth by Pengu) didn't succeed. From a purely cold, rational perspective, given how many chances he had been given to change not only in this community, but NS in general, but had yet to make any progress as far as I could see as a relative newcomer back then. Were I the monarch back then, he would have gotten banned well before it reached even that point. I want to make it clear I'm not criticising the approach at the time, though, since I soon began to think there might be hope after all when I started to make a concerted effort to help him, once the initial attempt failed. I, like many others, was fooling myself.

We all did this dance together. I could have pushed harder from thereon out, and so could you, Pengu. Misguided as we may have been, I do believe our community is better for it. I've softened up a lot since joining Wintreath, and this has had benefits in real life too. This place really did let me see the value of compassion, as after all, Gov was far from the only outcast who had come here and been treated unfairly before, only to find a place where they could always be welcome. Sure, it didn't work out for Gov, but many other members here were treated equally badly by other major regions.

That said, Pengu's point is not without merit. The way you speak about it, Wintermoot, it is clear that his actions touched you on a very personal level, which the community at large does not quite quite necessarily appreciate.

Admirable as his actions were, and they certainly were very admirable, I have to admit there are many things that Chanku has done that fly directly in the face of this title, where he was behaving less than fairly. This is not to bring up the past or attack Chanku's character, as especially now, I am very impressed with the way he has handled himself of late. I would still be lying if I said I was entirely comfortable granting him such a lofty title, though.

That's more of what I was getting at.  I wasn't trying to lessen anything by saying Gov wasn't actually pushed away later.  But as you just said, Chanku, myself, and others were already attempting to get rid of him far earlier than you yourself were wanting, since you wanted to give Gov more chances to improve.

My point was that even though Chanku nor us pushed things any further, it was because we respected your stance on playing things out a bit longer and backed off.  Not because any of us really wanted to give him any more benefit of the doubt.   And it was only until Gov alienated himself a bit more that we decided to push further since you yourself were burning out on helping him any more.

My main point being what  Laurentus said.  Like he mentioned, looking at Chanku, I'm very grateful that he seems like he's doing very much the better.  But past behaviors contradict the title that you're wanting to give him.

That's why I think something like "Champion of the Monarch" is much more appropriate.  Because even in those past behaviors, he's tended to be a voice in your corner and fight specifically for you and the monarchy, even against when the UH has wanted to change the monarchy in ways that he may have seen as attempts to weaken it.  So that title seems more appropriate than "Champion of the Just."

Admirable as his actions were, and they certainly were very admirable, I have to admit there are many things that Chanku has done that fly directly in the face of this title, where he was behaving less than fairly. This is not to bring up the past or attack Chanku's character, as especially now, I am very impressed with the way he has handled himself of late. I would still be lying if I said I was entirely comfortable granting him such a lofty title, though.

You know, you're right. He's done some regrettable things in the past that I didn't and don't condone at all. But I think a lot of that came from a position of immaturity. Chanku joined us when he was barely 14...he's lived most of his teenage years with us in a way, and I think we all know those years aren't always pretty, lol. For what it's worth, I think he was adequately punished for those things...he lost elections for long periods of time, he was temp-banned from IRC on some occasions, and at one point he was even forced to choose between serving as Jarl of Defense and Delegate of Warzone Sandbox when it became clear he couldn't separate those two roles. He's watched others who came long after him be commended, be inducted into the nobility, and become Paragons.

I don't see a reason to hold it against him now, both because of that and because I think he's growing past it. I think Chanku has really come into his own in the past year...he's still not afraid to let his thoughts be known and defend them, which I've always liked about him, but he's developed a depth that I hadn't seen in him before, and an insightfulness and empathy that I really appreciate. He's obviously become a more capable leader, just comparing this term as Speaker with most of his past terms in that position. He's proven himself an able and zealous defender of the region and the community.

I just think now is the right time. I obviously wouldn't even suggest such a title if I felt it would come back to haunt me, much less put myself on the line like this. But I'm confident that he's deserving and that he'll be a credit to the title, and I'd like to think and hope that I've made a compelling case to that effect.

Wintermoot, if you truly want to do this, fine. You will receive no opposition from me.

Fair enough. He was penalised proportionally to his misconduct, so he should be rewarded proportionally, too. I simply still don't feel as if that specific title is appropriate at this time. One character trait he has always displayed is steadfastness, no matter what was happening, so why not name his title after that?

@Wintermoot to be fair, it comes off as a little pretentious when the person receiving the honor comes off as nitpicky about what he's being given.  It's like if you had given one of us a noble title and we were like "yeah, I don't really like the sound of that title, I want to be called this instead."

I highly doubt that's the intention behind the post at all (rather than the name just not sounding right) but that's how it'll be perceived.

In fairness, I usually contact the person privately first to ask them which exact town/area they would like in their title, unless decree specifies something more specific. They have a chance to voice their opinion beforehand, it's just done in private.

Drafting this act, I was actually more concerned with whether Chanku would like the title or not. I did not ask him beforehand, because I wanted to surprise him, so he found out about it when I posted the act like everyone else. I didn't think it would be an issue in the Underhusen, because there's never been any opposition to an honor in the Underhusen in the region's history as far as I can remember. If anything, the opposition has been in the Overhusen, and even then because the proposed acts did not properly honor the recipient. This is truly unprecedented in the history of the region.

But in any case, I just don't think we should add insult to injury by telling Chanku to shut up (in the nicest way possible).

Since it seems you guys (the UH) are looking for ideas for the title: "Defender/Guardian of ..." (maybe even just "Wintreath") since the Act talks a lot about how he defended Wintreath's honor, calling him "a stalwart defender of the region, its community, its principles, and its Monarch".

Yup, that's one of the ones North suggested, too.

Why not something like, say, 'Wintrean Warden' (or 'Warden of Wintreath' if that's the structure that's preferred)? It's short, alliterative, and hits the key points y'all mention.