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A Prime Minister?
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Tiberius Caesar
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  • Monarchist
  • Hello I'm new to the region.

    I have carefully reviewed the current laws in place so I at least have a basic idea of the fact that what I'm proposing is radical given the current organization of governance.

    I was thinking that perhaps the Head of State and Head of Government positions should be more separate.

    Im suggesting creating a Prime Minister.

    As a strong monarchist in RL and NS , a monarchy is at its strongest as a form of stability when the Monarch is only Head of State. To be clear I have nothing against this region or its Monarchy I'm simply proposing that we create a democraticly accountable Head of Government position.

    The Monarch would still be Commander of the Army and have their own set of perorgatives. They would assent to Cabinet appointments of the Prime Minister etc.
    The Prime Minister would be required on certain things to work on the "advice and consent of Monarch".
    I do realize that this would require certain constitutional and other legal changes.


    I know this might be an outrageous proposal to some. However Wintreath is about five years old and still relatively young in region terms so I thought this might be less outrageous now than if it was proposed when the region is ten or fifteen years old and such an idea for change for the better would be less susceptible to the populace.
    I believe that truly this change is a better situation for the Monarchy, democracy and really the vast majority of the region.

    Please give me your thoughts.
    Tiberius Caesar
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    Laurentus
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  • What would it improve, and why? What would the job of a prime minister be?
    1 person likes this post: taulover
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    Laurentus
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    Michi
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  • So, to answer Laurentus, I think it'd be basically this:

    They'd preside over the Jarls instead of Wintermoot.  If I'm assuming correctly...in the forum sense, think a Global Moderator or secondary Admin that essentially helps oversee the forums compared to moderators that oversee their specific areas (which are what Jarls are).  So basically, the Crowned Prince/Princess, if we had one...except instead of being chosen by Wintermoot, they'd be another elected official.

    In the broad sense, I think it's believed that this would improve how things are ran, since it'd be less of a grip that the monarchy has, and more of a grip given back to the people since it'd be an elected official holding more of the reigns.

    Which, I'll be honest, sounds like a really odd suggestion coming from someone who says they're a Monarchist/Monarch Servant.

    Forgive me if this comes out badly, but I don't entirely see how weakening the Monarchy puts it at its strongest.  If anything, I would have expected to hear a Monarchist say that they would want Wintermoot to have absolute power as opposed to saying that more should be taken away from him.

    What you're suggesting is Wintreath becoming more of a crowned republic, aka a region where the Monarch is only a Monarch symbolically while in reality, the people decide everything.

    In other words, England, and Wintermoot would be our Queen Elizabeth II.

    Problem is, that's not something that translates at best online (though outside of the Prime Minister post, Wintreath is mostly that already...Wintermoot just is less symbolic, more actual ruler over Wintreath).

    Whereas Queen Elizabeth and the entire royal family can be dissolved/destroyed and England changed absolutely, that's not how forums work.  Even if at the end of the day we made a Prime Minister, it'd be a purely symbolic/formal creation since the Monarch does and always will have absolute power over the forums (since he's the root administrator, and can thus change anything on a whim if he so chooses).  Even if we were to change Wintreath into a democracy where we had a president elected by the people, it'd be the exact same story.

    Rather than going about it as if that caveat didn't exist, we choose to embrace that since our Monarch runs a pretty good ship.  And considering some places that had been established in other ways, only to be violently couped and replaced by dictatorships in everything but name (I turn you to some of the Sinker regions who were, and some who still are, shifted because of a coup), I'd say we're in a good place with where we're at.

    But that doesn't mean it won't ever happen.  At this time, however, I don't really see the purpose of it outside of it just being a purely symbolic thing.

    Anyways, that's just my two cents. Apologies if this seemed like a blatant shutdown of your idea, since it is most definitely a decent suggestion nonetheless.
    1 person likes this post: taulover
    « Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 06:55:42 PM by Pengu »
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    Michi
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    Chanku
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  • I should note that I don't necessarily support the position of a Prime Minister. While I am more of a Republican (Not the US political party, the other meaning), I don't necessarily think that having a Prime Minister or having more of a Republican government would actually help anything in Wintreath.
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    Tiberius Caesar
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  • The Monarch would still have plenty of powers while being only the Head of State.
    Monarchist are more stable when the Monarch isn't at the center of politics- like being Head of Government.
    If we had an elected HOG, like the Prime Minister, it would be more of a balance for democracy and Monarchy. Having an elected Head of Government would enhance our Game play as well.

    Actually having a Monarch with dual roles as HoS and HoG make it more prone generally to abolishment at some point in time because of the political aspect of HoG. Of course Wintreath may not be near that point now but I fail to see how my idea wouldn't work. It's the best alternative for a Monarchy both in RL and NS.

    Wintermoot would still have more powers than Queen Elizabeth II or that of a crowned republic. Wintreath will still be a Kingdom.

    I fail to see how this isn't a great idea. We will still have the Storting etc..
    Tiberius Caesar
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    Tiberius Caesar
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  • Also the Prime Minister wouldn't be purely symbolic. Being a HoG is a lot of work. You have departments to supervise and a government mandate to fulfill.
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    Chanku
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  • Since you are new, I'll assume that you are merely arguing from a lack of knowledge of Wintreath and our culture and community. The whole "politics" stuff isn't really a thing here. The culture has a very strong bent against politics, even to the point that things like political parties would be (for lack of better term) political suicide here.

    Because of our lack of politics, the Monarch really isn't at the center of it. Most of the Politics is limited to the Underhusen (and to a lesser extent the whole of the Storting). In fact most of the time the Monarch doesn't actually get involved in the politics of the Storting, except for in some instances. Wintrean Culture and Legal Custom actually has a very strong separation between the branches of Government (Primarily between the Legislative and Executive.), where neither interfere with that of the other, outside of what is generally allowed (The Overhusen influencing laws in the Storting and the Storting dealing with treaties and occasionally passing definition acts to clarify things that would be in Laws and Decrees.).
    2 people like this post: taulover, Michi
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    taulover
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  • Okay, how do I put this...

    First off, Wintreath is, very intentionally, rather not a political region. It would be "better for democracy" if we wanted to politicize the leadership, but that is simply not the case here.

    Second, an elected head of government opens the leadership to inactivity. You say that head of government is "a lot of work," but that actually works to our disadvantage here. Wintreath is merely a hobby, not a job, and people burdened with responsibility here often burn out and/or do not fulfill their goals in the long term. Wintermoot is unparalleled in his commitment and dedication to the community. There is simply nobody else better to lead the region, and as such it makes little sense for him to take a backseat in day-to-day affairs.

    Third, our Monarchy is a simple reflection of the fact that online communities necessarily have a centralized power structure. Wintermoot is root admin ("Winter Nomad" in our Fundamental Laws), and much like root admins elsewhere on the internet, has full control of all Wintrean premises. This is rather important because, again, the region is largely nonpolitical, and in many cases, the forum is more a general-purpose online community than the NS region it once began as. If anything, a traditional forum administration would make more sense in this context. And although we have been experimenting with elected positions in our leadership as a new avenue of advancement with the new elected Thanes, Wintreath is a meritocracy, where top-level elected positions simply don't make much sense. The model government that you typically see around NS (which arguably is simply a form a roleplay) is largely confined to the Storting, which generally stays out of the Monarchy (and vice versa, as Chanku said) and definitely stays out of administration.

    You're new here, so I suggest you take things slowly as you join our community and familiarize yourself with our culture and customs.
    3 people like this post: Dawsinian, Chanku, Michi
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    Wintreath:
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    taulover
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    Dawsinian
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  • Okay, how do I put this...

    First off, Wintreath is, very intentionally, rather not a political region. It would be "better for democracy" if we wanted to politicize the leadership, but that is simply not the case here.

    Second, an elected head of government opens the leadership to inactivity. You say that head of government is "a lot of work," but that actually works to our disadvantage here. Wintreath is merely a hobby, not a job, and people burdened with responsibility here often burn out and/or do not fulfill their goals in the long term. Wintermoot is unparalleled in his commitment and dedication to the community. There is simply nobody else better to lead the region, and as such it makes little sense for him to take a backseat in day-to-day affairs.

    Third, our Monarchy is a simple reflection of the fact that online communities necessarily have a centralized power structure. Wintermoot is root admin ("Winter Nomad" in our Fundamental Laws), and much like root admins elsewhere on the internet, has full control of all Wintrean premises. This is rather important because, again, the region is largely nonpolitical, and in many cases, the forum is more a general-purpose online community than the NS region it once began as. If anything, a traditional forum administration would make more sense in this context. And although we have been experimenting with elected positions in our leadership as a new avenue of advancement with the new elected Thanes, Wintreath is a meritocracy, where top-level elected positions simply don't make much sense. The model government that you typically see around NS (which arguably is simply a form a roleplay) is largely confined to the Storting, which generally stays out of the Monarchy (and vice versa, as Chanku said) and definitely stays out of administration.

    You're new here, so I suggest you take things slowly as you join our community and familiarize yourself with our culture and customs.

    Hear, hear!
    Dawsinian
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    Michi
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  • Basically what they said.  I definitely commend you for making a suggestion like such in your first days here, as well as getting a feel for how our constitution works.

    But look at it this way: Wintermoot is only an absolute monarch on paper, because again he's the root administrator, so that's us just embracing that fact rather than trying to pretend otherwise.

    In actual Wintreath though, Wintermoot is more like a president, except he's essentially the President for all time.

    Sure, he writes royal decrees on certain occasions (just like the president can issue executive orders), but 99% of the time the laws are written and amended by elected officials.  Sure, half of Storting (aka the Overhusen) is officials appointed by him personally, but he's not even the one that oversees its operation (that's the Chairman's role, just like the Speaker oversees the Underhusen).  Sure, the Cabinet is appointed by him, but like every other appointed role in Wintreath (which includes the OH), it's through a Meritocratic approach: if you're putting in effort and making a difference in making Wintreath better, you get rewarded.  Not to mention, appointed Jarls can choose their Thanes...and even then there's been a new system put in place by Wintermoot and the cabinet to where people can elect the Thanes.

    So if anything, we're becoming more democratic since we're giving more power to the people as to who they want in office.

    In the end though, Tau and Chanku said it best: We're not even really that political.

    If anything, all of the Underhusen/Overhusen activity, the elections, the campaigns...they're mainly formalities so that our government is ever-changing.  Most of the topics that you see regarding bills are the Secretary posting what the UH is currently talking about, and only rarely do we have those topics get a high amount of discussion...and usually it's by the same select handful of people.  Most members that appear on here come to post mainly in the cultural part of the forums, one that we've strove to emphasize since we're definitely much more of a cultural region than a political one.

    For the most part, though, citizens don't really care to get involved politically.  We've had session after session of the UH with the same people because those generally end up being the only people eager to take part.  Very rarely nowadays do we have people eager to jump into the mix.

    To give an idea, elections in general are absolutely bare...especially nowadays.  We're lucky if we even have a full crowd to hold an election, rather than it being a walkover because only the minimum required even desired to take part.  Heck, we have people tackling on multiple roles because the amount of interest in taking part is a flicker rather than a full flame.  Because again, outside of the select few that show any interest in keeping up on the political side, citizens have no interest in being political outside of voting.  And even then, for a region that has over 200 nations...we're lucky if we even hit over 20 votes total during election periods.

    You read that right: at most, around 20 out of over 200 nations vote in elections

    That's only 10% of the region voting on who they want to represent the region.  And we're talking at least 1/4 of that 20 are the people running in the elections.

    And that's during a good election time.  On average, we tend to hit even less votes than that.  And that's not even due to lack of advertising the election process, since we broadcast it throughout the region.  That's just due mainly to the fact that, again, people just don't care enough to pop in to vote.

    To add more roles to the mix would simply invite more inactivity, to be honest.  What happens when no one wants to take part in it except for one of the Jarls, or one of the Thanes?  Would our Prime Minister be a Jarl/Thane as well as a member of the UH?  How would we determine who could run and what the restrictions would be? How long would one have to be a member to take part? What qualifications would they need to run for office (because let's be honest, if we're electing someone for that position, they need to have prior Wintreath political experience in some capacity)?

    In short, it throws in too many questions to answer for a role that might not even get filled or worse, it might get filled by someone who is already tackling on other roles, so that person would become overwhelmed and burnt out.

    It's just not something needed right now when we can't even ensure the person in it will be active.  We've already had that problem with the cabinet itself, and we don't need an overseer position next to Moot's that could be open to that same problem.  Especially since that problem would spill into the overall cabinets as well.

    Let me throw out some earlier examples...the list of Jarls used to be much bigger than the 3 we have now.  We had a Jarl of Defense, Jarl of Information, Jarl of Mediations, and I believe we had at least one or two more that I can't currently think of.  The problem, was that there was too much delegation and not enough results.  Information became useless because not enough work was happening (to be fair, it was usually a big workload), and so that office was closed and now is integrated into some of the other ministries (IE, embassy dispatches are now part of the Ministry of Integration).  Likewise, our military was miniscule until it was finally practically non-existent because nobody wanted to take part, so that office was closed.  But the worst part of all was that at one point, every single ministry save for a small few went completely silent.   And this is with Wintermoot heading them.  Even after replacing some of the more inactive Jarls with newer ones (ones that showed a lot of promise because of their work on the forums already), they still went through the same problem.  What would a PM do better in that instance?

    Adding another role would add to that potential heartache.  If we get someone who does absolutely nothing to where the role feels more like a formality rather than having any actual functionality (aka the same feeling people have about the Underhusen/Overhusen system on days), then there was no point having the role there in the first place.

    If anything though, we're a long ways away from adding more roles to our system.  We've still got a big work in progress for the roles that we've already established.  We're finally starting to make some progress on that front, but not near enough to throw another into the mix just yet.

    I mean, hell, we're still discussing the possibility of an Open Assembly.  But for the same reasons I've given you on this topic, it's only a pipe dream at this moment in time.

    And those are my other three cents.  Trade me my other two, and I'll give you a nickle back.
    « Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 03:38:26 AM by Pengu »
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    Tiberius Caesar
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  • Alright. This was certainly a helpful discussion to me personally as a new citizen. I hope I didn't upset anyone. I was simply utilizing the Citizens Platform provided.

    If anything I feel that this discussion will help me make Wintreath better with the knowledge I have now.

    Thank you
    2 people like this post: taulover, Gerrick
    Tiberius Caesar
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  • Alright. This was certainly a helpful discussion to me personally as a new citizen. I hope I didn't upset anyone. I was simply utilizing the Citizens Platform provided.

    If anything I feel that this discussion will help me make Wintreath better with the knowledge I have now.

    Thank you

    I don't think you upset anyone.  All suggestions for how Wintreath can be improved are always welcomed in the very least, and it's not often we get many new members that have new ideas.  So thank you for the suggestion, even if it's not exactly what we're aiming at at the moment.

    And welcome to Wintreath, hopefully that wasn't too much of an off-putting introduction.  We're just very passionate about our system here.   :))
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    Tiberius Caesar
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  • Okay. I hope I'm here for a long time. I can't access Discord right now because I'm one of the 1% that doesn't have the means to do so but I will be forum active etc.

    Where do I go exactly to apply to government jobs?
    Some regions have a whole section for government jobs.
    Tiberius Caesar
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  • Okay. I hope I'm here for a long time. I can't access Discord right now because I'm one of the 1% that doesn't have the means to do so but I will be forum active etc.

    Where do I go exactly to apply to government jobs?
    Some regions have a whole section for government jobs.

    Think of the whole of Wintreath as your application.

    In other words, go back to what I said earlier about us being a Meritocratic society.  The more you do and the more of a positive impact you have on the region, the more likely you'll be noticed and rewarded for your efforts. 

    Basically, any ideas you have, any games you want to create, roleplays you want to start, laws you want to bring up for discussion, topics of interest you want to discuss...bring them out.  If you have ideas and more for how to bring people to Wintreath, bring them up for discussion.  If you have an RP or new game you think will draw people to the region, bring it up to talk about or experiment with.

    Essentially, Wintreath is about letting you find your ideas that you think will impact the region positively and help it progress...and letting you run with those ideas.

    If you're seen as someone who can be innovative and passionate, then you get noticed.

    As for the elections of certain positions....for Underhusen, basically when election term begins, you'll state your intent to run, and then create a campaign.  For Thane elections, you'll state your intent to run, create a campaign thread that answers the questions that Wintermoot provides, your application of intent to run will be vetted by the Jarl in charge of the Thane-ship that you're running for, and then from that point it'll go down to a vote by the specific list of people (IE Thane of Werewolf allows only past/current Werewolf players to vote, Thane of LGBT allows only people who have posted in the LGBT forum or identify as LGBT to vote, etc...).

    That's pretty much how it goes.

    Outside of that, there's really no government jobs.  Most are handled by either the Storting, or the Cabinet (since the Jarls delegate tasks to the different Thanes).
    1 person likes this post: taulover
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    Tiberius Caesar
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  • Alright, I see. Thanks
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