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Underhausen

FYI, it's Underhusen. The theme of this region is Nordic, not German.

p.s i don't recall if wintreath has one or not but maybe a discord server because explaining stuff by actually talking could be so much easier.

Wintreath currently has an unofficial Discord (with IRC still remaining the only official chat linked anywhere).

Underhausen

FYI, it's Underhusen. The theme of this region is Nordic, not German.

Sorry about that:/ I took a couple years of German, so that spelling just came naturally

Nice to see someone is trying to fix the Storting (especially after I got wrapped up in life among other things and failed to do much last session). However as others have said before the Storting, and in turn the Underhusen, has a lack of things to do really. It's become somewhat of a laughing-stock of an institution in some ways.

The main issue with the Underhusen is simple, there is no real incentive or reason to run. The Storting lacks enough authority and power to really do anything beyond fixing things it has already passed at this point. Most of the power lies within the Monarchy and the Underhusen has little ties to the Monarchy, so ultimately there is little sway within the rest of the region. If you want to see people run for Underhusen, you need to give them a reason to do so. However in order to do so there is the issue of this: You need to ask the Monarch for more power. Which Wintermoot, no offense, but you probably aren't going to grant more power to the Storting anytime soon. Last session me, my Speaker PT, and my Secretary discussed ideas for getting the Storting more involved in the government, things like potentially giving the Storting the power to confirm Jarls/Thanes, or giving it power to create ministries or whatever, I even suggested having the Storting create a set of awards that are designed for a certain field (that the Storting would also hear people that are to get the award). In the end they were shot down by Wintermoot. I understand Wintermoot's position, however there is the issue that most power is concentrated in the Monarchy, and as such why should someone focus on the Underhusen and put energy into there since it really won't lead to anywhere else. You get nothing else in return. In the past the Storting and Monarchy were generally separated in functioning. Each would do it's own thing, however that was not, and is not sustainable. If you want to see the Storting return to it's prime you need to give it more responsibilities, and thus more power. You need to have the Storting and Monarchy/Riksrad work together.

At least that's my 2 cents.

(Also on the Paragon thing, I would somewhat oppose that, only because Paragons are kinda bloated anyway. I would argue giving them Wintreath Commendations would be nice, because only one person has one right now, meaning the Commendation is more exclusive that Paragon status).

Nice to see someone is trying to fix the Storting (especially after I got wrapped up in life among other things and failed to do much last session). However as others have said before the Storting, and in turn the Underhusen, has a lack of things to do really. It's become somewhat of a laughing-stock of an institution in some ways.

The main issue with the Underhusen is simple, there is no real incentive or reason to run. The Storting lacks enough authority and power to really do anything beyond fixing things it has already passed at this point. Most of the power lies within the Monarchy and the Underhusen has little ties to the Monarchy, so ultimately there is little sway within the rest of the region. If you want to see people run for Underhusen, you need to give them a reason to do so. However in order to do so there is the issue of this: You need to ask the Monarch for more power. Which Wintermoot, no offense, but you probably aren't going to grant more power to the Storting anytime soon. Last session me, my Speaker PT, and my Secretary discussed ideas for getting the Storting more involved in the government, things like potentially giving the Storting the power to confirm Jarls/Thanes, or giving it power to create ministries or whatever, I even suggested having the Storting create a set of awards that are designed for a certain field (that the Storting would also hear people that are to get the award). In the end they were shot down by Wintermoot. I understand Wintermoot's position, however there is the issue that most power is concentrated in the Monarchy, and as such why should someone focus on the Underhusen and put energy into there since it really won't lead to anywhere else. You get nothing else in return. In the past the Storting and Monarchy were generally separated in functioning. Each would do it's own thing, however that was not, and is not sustainable. If you want to see the Storting return to it's prime you need to give it more responsibilities, and thus more power. You need to have the Storting and Monarchy/Riksrad work together.

At least that's my 2 cents.

(Also on the Paragon thing, I would somewhat oppose that, only because Paragons are kinda bloated anyway. I would argue giving them Wintreath Commendations would be nice, because only one person has one right now, meaning the Commendation is more exclusive that Paragon status).

I totally agree with this. I think that there is a balance that can be found when it comes to the powers of the Founder (in this case the Monarch) in any region. This balance is essential, because as Chanku points out if almost all of the power is concentratead in one person at the top, there is little incentive for anyone else to get into government. Allowing the Underhusen more power and say in the Governmetn, and relinquishing certain responsibilities to it would greatly increase the importance of the legislature. When it's more important and more active, it should begin to court more interest.

At the end of the day, though, on a forum, he who has admin rights has the power, and he who has root power over all of them.
Having a monarchy just sort of...clearly represents this in a way that a purely representative democracy would not, because as Ainur saw, if the executive doesn't have root admin privileges, a coup can happen whenever the root admin wants and there's sweet Fanny Adams to be done about it.

things like potentially giving the Storting the power to confirm Jarls/Thanes

What's the point of this? I've looked at a lot of regions where legislatures have this power, and they rarely if ever vote down a nominee the head of government has put forward, even when there's good reason to do so. Coupled with the fact that we have few people interested in being a Jarl or Thane because of the workload it involves, and I suspect this would be more giving the Storting busywork rather than power.

or giving it power to create ministries or whatever

The Storting is free to create its own subordinate offices and groups, just like the Underhusen created a Secretary position. In that regard, it already has the power, it just doesn't have the power to impose an office on the Monarchy that I then have to try to fill and take responsibility for.

I even suggested having the Storting create a set of awards that are designed for a certain field (that the Storting would also hear people that are to get the award)

I don't think I 'shot down' this one, I just pointed out that I thought an actual awards event would be more fun and rewarding for everyone. The Storting can create any awards that it wants, as it did with the Commendation.

The problem with the idea that all would be well if the Monarchy gave up some power is that we rarely actually utilize any real power we have...appointments to the Cabinet are rare, there have only been nine decrees in nearly four years, and with one lone exception in that time we approve all legal Citizenship applications by default. The Monarchy isn't active because we have all this power, it's active because we do a lot of regular work that any Citizen could do if they wanted...we just have people who have accepted doing that work as a responsibility, and I'm glad we have people that are willing to do that. They, along with some Citizens that pitch in and get things going, are what keep this community going.

Furthermore, it's simply not fair to say that I won't grant anyone more power...I have agreed to restrict the powers of the Monarchy when it made sense to, such as when we restricted the power of decrees to a few areas, and when we made the Underhusen Speaker one that's selected by the Skrifa rather than by me. I just haven't seen the case be made that giving the Underhusen power that the Monarchy itself rarely has need to use is going to magically make it more relevant.

No.

No no no.

More power is NOT the answer.  In fact, I seem to recall a time when the UH...specifically the Speaker, had far too much power to do whatever the heck they pleased.

I also recall that it was decided by UH that that reign of power needed to be dialed DOWN, not up, as ended up being the duty of everyone in either my first or second term in the UH (to where we basically neutered the role of the Speaker and made it less powerful).

The last thing we need to do is do a complete 180 and give that power back, because that just brings us back to square one.

1. Think of Wintreath like a presidency.  Wintermoot is the president, the Cabinet is his...well, cabinet, the Underhusen is the House of Reps, and the OH is the Senate.  If anything, the storting wouldn't be the one to confirm the Jarls/Thanes...that would be the OH's job, as it's the Senate who confirm/reject the president's choices for his cabinet, not the HoR.  And since the OH is pretty much everyone handpicked by Wintermoot himself, that really serves no purpose having his own handpicked people confirm/deny his own handpicked cabinet.

2.  If we really wanted a "ministry," we could create it in the sense of creating a group (as WM pointed out).  However, an actual Ministry should always be headed by a Jarl, which essentially makes things moot since, well, Moot picks the cabinet members.  If the UH can come up with a group that can function well and is spearheaded by its members, I'm sure Wintermoot would be fine with it.  But that'd require the UH to actually be on top of it 24/7.

3.  We can create awards, and there's really nothing stopping us aside from majority votes against such awards from either house.  I could go in and create a reward honoring people who reach a specific post count, and if voted positively by both houses, it would become a legitimate award.  As for an actual set of awards, I think that should be something handled by all branches of government as well as the citizens, not just one specific branch.  As WM said...an actual ceremony.

I wasn't here for any of the points about the Underhusen having more power before, but I just had something to say on the point of cabinet posts.

@Wintermoot Although I suspect a whole lot of people woulnd't be jumping at the chance to head up one of the ministries, that doesn't mean those people don't exist. I think that the current executive set up in the region kind of discourages people to get involved in these ministries. Unless one of the current Jarls or Thanes leaves their post, there is no real turnover. In the RIA, the region I was in before this one, the newly elected delegate chose their new Ministers. Sure, often people cycled in and out of the same ministries, but there was room and availability for people to take the offices when this turnover happened. In Wintreath, that is not really possible since the Monarch appoints their officials and they are not replaced except for under extreme circumstances. I think opening up the ministries not only to greater turnover, but also perhaps a spreading the workload out so that the positions would be less stressful and more plentiful may help incentivize people to participate.

1. Think of Wintreath like a presidency.  Wintermoot is the president, the Cabinet is his...well, cabinet, the Underhusen is the House of Reps, and the OH is the Senate.  If anything, the storting wouldn't be the one to confirm the Jarls/Thanes...that would be the OH's job, as it's the Senate who confirm/reject the president's choices for his cabinet, not the HoR.  And since the OH is pretty much everyone handpicked by Wintermoot himself, that really serves no purpose having his own handpicked people confirm/deny his own handpicked cabinet.

I don't think this analogy really works. Wintreath's government is quite different form that of the US in many fundamental ways. Although the OH is technically the upper house of the Storting, like the Senate is of Congress, the Senate is not in any way picked by the executive branch. It is still a legitimate legislative check on the executives powers. Also, the Monarch is for life, unlike the termed President. I think it would make sense for the elected branch of the Storting, like the elected Senate, to have some control over the executive's appointments, especially when the executive is a monarch. That is to say nothing bad against Wintermoot, who I think is a legitimately wonderful ruler. But checks and balances must exist, and this seems like a logical one.

I wasn't here for any of the points about the Underhusen having more power before, but I just had something to say on the point of cabinet posts.

@Wintermoot Although I suspect a whole lot of people woulnd't be jumping at the chance to head up one of the ministries, that doesn't mean those people don't exist. I think that the current executive set up in the region kind of discourages people to get involved in these ministries. Unless one of the current Jarls or Thanes leaves their post, there is no real turnover. In the RIA, the region I was in before this one, the newly elected delegate chose their new Ministers. Sure, often people cycled in and out of the same ministries, but there was room and availability for people to take the offices when this turnover happened. In Wintreath, that is not really possible since the Monarch appoints their officials and they are not replaced except for under extreme circumstances. I think opening up the ministries not only to greater turnover, but also perhaps a spreading the workload out so that the positions would be less stressful and more plentiful may help incentivize people to participate.

1. Think of Wintreath like a presidency.  Wintermoot is the president, the Cabinet is his...well, cabinet, the Underhusen is the House of Reps, and the OH is the Senate.  If anything, the storting wouldn't be the one to confirm the Jarls/Thanes...that would be the OH's job, as it's the Senate who confirm/reject the president's choices for his cabinet, not the HoR.  And since the OH is pretty much everyone handpicked by Wintermoot himself, that really serves no purpose having his own handpicked people confirm/deny his own handpicked cabinet.

I don't think this analogy really works. Wintreath's government is quite different form that of the US in many fundamental ways. Although the OH is technically the upper house of the Storting, like the Senate is of Congress, the Senate is not in any way picked by the executive branch. It is still a legitimate legislative check on the executives powers. Also, the Monarch is for life, unlike the termed President. I think it would make sense for the elected branch of the Storting, like the elected Senate, to have some control over the executive's appointments, especially when the executive is a monarch. That is to say nothing bad against Wintermoot, who I think is a legitimately wonderful ruler. But checks and balances must exist, and this seems like a logical one.

I said they're alike, not identical.  Clearly there are differences since Wintermoot is King, not President.  But as Putin proves, even "President" is just a word since he's virtually "President for Life."  So aside from the nomination of the Senate being a bit different, they're pretty alike.  And structure wise, given how Wintermoot chooses to actually rule, they're a bit more identical evem though they do have their differences.

@Wintermoot Although I suspect a whole lot of people woulnd't be jumping at the chance to head up one of the ministries, that doesn't mean those people don't exist. I think that the current executive set up in the region kind of discourages people to get involved in these ministries. Unless one of the current Jarls or Thanes leaves their post, there is no real turnover. In the RIA, the region I was in before this one, the newly elected delegate chose their new Ministers. Sure, often people cycled in and out of the same ministries, but there was room and availability for people to take the offices when this turnover happened. In Wintreath, that is not really possible since the Monarch appoints their officials and they are not replaced except for under extreme circumstances. I think opening up the ministries not only to greater turnover, but also perhaps a spreading the workload out so that the positions would be less stressful and more plentiful may help incentivize people to participate.

At the end of the day, Wintreath is a meritocratic society, and it doesn't make sense to remove Cabinet members who are active and doing a good job. It's hard to find people who have the time and interest, and are willing to volunteer both towards the region, because as someone who puts a lot of time into this myself, I expect a lot from the Cabinet.

Earlier this summer, I removed a few members who had gone inactive, and even with open ministries it's hard to find people. That's why the Ministry of Information portfolio was narrowed down to become Court Scribe (and even then, only one person applied for it), and why the Ministry of Integration remains completely vacant. The fact of the matter is, most people are here to have fun, not to work, and there's nothing wrong with that. I certainly want people to have fun, lol. It's just that when it comes to taking on responsibility in the region that's honestly not fun, unless you're weird like me and you find building things that people enjoy to be fun.

The people who are willing to put in the time and energy are absolute treasures. I've seen regions that don't have people like that, and they tend to be utterly inactive.

I'll echo Moot on this.  The reason I stepped away from being Jarl of Culture was because it felt like a chore after some time with little to no actual progress being made.  Rather than creating things for fun, it became doing it for the sake of meeting deadlines.
Creating new content became stressful because it became almost a required challenge as opposed to being something fun to bring something new to the table. That in itself created burnout, and I had to step away from the region for a bit.

And this is the Culture Ministry...the section that should be the most exciting of them all since it spearheads the entertainment side of the forums.

Right now, Gerrick has been doing an excellent job.  He's brought forth some excellent additions to RP and other areas, and has really taken to the role pretty well.  I'll be hoping that it continues and he enioys it...but I'll also understand any days that he doesn't since I've had them...as have all of the Jarls of past and present at specific points.

I will say that things have improved since Coco was a Jarl, at least...back then Citizens expected the Cabinet to run absolutely everything, and not only is that not sustainable, it's self-limiting since there's only so much a handful of people can physically do. Since then we've done more to encourage regular Citizens to take the initiative and do things they want, and while Gerrick does a great job of hosting events and coming up with ideas when he wants to, he's also encouraged people to take the lead themselves and tried to get people together with things like task forces and things like that. We've also introduced Cabinet positions with narrower portfolios such as the Court Scribe, whose sole regular responsibility is putting out the Orendi monthly.

As demanding as being on the Cabinet is now, I'd like to think that the period Coco is talking about was the absolute low point, just because the expectations on the Monarchy were insane at the time.

Hijacking this thread because it's mildly relevant and there's no Citizens' discussion for this particular law.

I was about to start writing this up since nobody else wanted to, but I then realized that I couldn't find where in the laws it states how long Underhusen nomination periods and election periods are. @Wintermoot?

It's in the Fundamental Laws. (Though in this case perhaps it'd be better to pass a separate piece of Statutory Law or something rather than amending the Fundamental Laws?)

Hijacking this thread because it's mildly relevant and there's no Citizens' discussion for this particular law.

I was about to start writing this up since nobody else wanted to, but I then realized that I couldn't find where in the laws it states how long Underhusen nomination periods and election periods are. @Wintermoot?

It's in the Fundamental Laws. (Though in this case perhaps it'd be better to pass a separate piece of Statutory Law or something rather than amending the Fundamental Laws?)

I was going to wait until it became a bill discussion before bringing it up here...but I do suppose having a topic just to talk about the election process in general would be a pretty good thing to have in here as well. 

Wait, I was almost a paragon?