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Hey there citizens, Pengu here.

So I realize that the view of the UH and what they do has been...less than favorable to the point of occasional discussions of its destruction.  And I aim to do my best to improve that view.

My question to you is: What would you like to see the Underhusen do?

I've already laid some groundwork as to what I personally think we can do this term and in future terms (as you can see in here), and I think the latter 2 things are especially important.

Personally, I think one of the big things is becoming more involved with you guys.  It's been my thought process since I was first in the UH, and it hasn't deterred.  One of the biggest reasons the 10th UH session had created the role of the Secretary was for them to help generate interest among you guys.  The idea behind the role of the Secretary was that they would post our discussions in the Platform, ping members and post links in places like the RMB, and get people involved and interested in what we were doing.

Clearly, this hasn't been happening to the capacity I, and most likely the lot of us that discussed the role, was hoping for.

So, I think it's time to try to take another step.

Ideally, I'd love to see the idea of a monthly/bi-monthly/once-a-term IRC public meeting take off, as I do think it's a necessary step in the right direction.  As mentioned in the above thread, members would be messaged when the meeting was scheduled to happen, and would be encouraged to pop in, listen in, and provide any input that they have.  Likewise, the idea of just having different members host a Q&A session is something I'd love to see because it would give you guys the chance to question us singularly about the UH session, what you'd like to see, and so on.

Really, in the end, I just want to see the UH get more involved with you guys, and in turn see the citizens get more involved with the process of the UH.  We're a body that's normally considered stagnant and distant from the citizens, and that needs to end.  We were elected by you to represent you after all, so I think it's necessary to show you just how much your voice actually does matter.

But I've prattled on, and I'm pretty sure I could continue.  I'd really like to hear from you guys on this and get your thoughts.  What do you feel like the UH should do this term? In your opinion, is there anything we can do better or improve on?  What can we do to help get you interested in the process?

I, and I'm sure my colleagues as well, appreciate any feedback from you, and are eager to hear what you have to say. 

I suppose my question really is: what's the point? An UH that's not doing anything is probably a good sign, since that suggests that there's nothing that needs changing, or at least nothing that needs it so badly that someone's complained. Doing something when nothing needs doing is the mark of bad management, because you feel the need to justify your continued existence.

Personally though, I don't really see the utility of a legislative body here at all. Laws for the sake of having laws strikes me as pointless; they should exist only when there is no other recourse against bad behavior but to codify certain ones. Everything else can and probably really should be dealt with by custom, simply because the prospect of having laws is intimidating to creating an online community (insofar as you'd generally like to know said laws before joining the community).
I'm not suggesting you guys are doing anything bad; just that it seems kind of like playing house.
Then again I've always been against student government as pointless, and this pretty much strikes me as that, again. Maybe I'm wrong.

I suppose my question really is: what's the point? An UH that's not doing anything is probably a good sign, since that suggests that there's nothing that needs changing, or at least nothing that needs it so badly that someone's complained. Doing something when nothing needs doing is the mark of bad management, because you feel the need to justify your continued existence.

Personally though, I don't really see the utility of a legislative body here at all. Laws for the sake of having laws strikes me as pointless; they should exist only when there is no other recourse against bad behavior but to codify certain ones. Everything else can and probably really should be dealt with by custom, simply because the prospect of having laws is intimidating to creating an online community (insofar as you'd generally like to know said laws before joining the community).
I'm not suggesting you guys are doing anything bad; just that it seems kind of like playing house.
Then again I've always been against student government as pointless, and this pretty much strikes me as that, again. Maybe I'm wrong.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, Doc.

While I do agree that sometimes a quiet government is a nice one, the problem is that any place that has laws will always need mending in some way...or additions/retractions to meet with the constantly changing atmosphere.  Places change over time, and if they have laws in effect, those laws show follow the change.

For me, it takes the place of the traditional forum rules.  Elected members get to have a say in how the process around the forums go, rather than it being 100% set in stone ideal set by a single individual.  That appeals to me because I've seen how rigid and downright unnecessary some rules can get, so the idea of having a hand in shaping those and other processes is a nice idea.  The fact that some rules will be removed, others added, some changed (barring Royal Decrees), each by different elected members that aren't necessarily the administrator's mod squad is even more of a draw to me.  These aren't special handpicked people by the founder, these are literally just people voted by others for 2 month periods that will go back to being just regular citizens after that period (unless re-elected).  So really, anyone can get the chance to be in that type of position, so it makes it less "exclusive" and more inclusive.

Likewise, it goes beyond just the simple rules and extends outward.  We get to honor members with a privileged status/commendation, have a hand in revoking the status of more troublesome members, have a say in how our punishment systems (revocations and the judicial system) works...and overall things that normally a moderator would handle.  But again, we're not mods handpicked by the admin that indefinitely hold the status and develop entitlement issues...we're regular members that decide as a group for 2 month periods until we vote for the next group to succeed us.

And again, to me that's a bit more special since it's more inclusive, and there's less chance of corruption or feeling entitled because you can do special things.

I don't really have anything to add -- just wanted to remind you that UH terms are only two months.

Ah, you're correct.  I don't know why I keep counting the re-election month as one of the months x2.  <_<  I'll fix that note.

Edit: Alright, it's been fixed in the thread.  Thanks for pointing that out Gerrick.

I want @Mathyland to get those grammar fixes through.

That's pretty much it for now.

I suppose my question really is: what's the point? An UH that's not doing anything is probably a good sign, since that suggests that there's nothing that needs changing, or at least nothing that needs it so badly that someone's complained. Doing something when nothing needs doing is the mark of bad management, because you feel the need to justify your continued existence.

Personally though, I don't really see the utility of a legislative body here at all. Laws for the sake of having laws strikes me as pointless; they should exist only when there is no other recourse against bad behavior but to codify certain ones. Everything else can and probably really should be dealt with by custom, simply because the prospect of having laws is intimidating to creating an online community (insofar as you'd generally like to know said laws before joining the community).
I'm not suggesting you guys are doing anything bad; just that it seems kind of like playing house.
Then again I've always been against student government as pointless, and this pretty much strikes me as that, again. Maybe I'm wrong.

As an NS region, or at least an online community with origins in NS, I think it's still best to maintain a government-like leadership structure. If not a representative democracy, I still think a legislature of some sort, whether an appointed house or an open assembly or something else, would be preferable to no legislature at all.

(As for the advantages of such a system, I suppose Pengu has outlined most of them already...)

Keep in mind, @Coco Bandicoot, that you're free to remove the current Secretary from office if you feel they aren't performing up to their job. I also don't believe the Secretary position is even necessary, and that the position can be absorbed into the Speaker (pro tempore) positions.

I do fully support the IRC meetings for the Underhusen early in each term, as well as the "fireside chat" style of Q&A you're proposing, also on a per-term basis. The Overhusen should also consider these ideas, especially to open up a line of communication between them and the Underhusen and the rest of the citizenry.

@Laurentus should most definitely become a Paragon at this point. I would say @Colberius X as well, although I'm not too sure how much experience I've had with him. I also believe that you, Coco, should be a Paragon as well. We tried to make you a Paragon before, and now would be fitting more than ever. This would be a bill I recommend you abstain from, however.

I remember trying to institute an open legislature before, but that didn't work out because (a point which was already addressed) everyone suggested their feelings against it only after it was introduced for referendum. And this was many prominent citizens who were previously in support of the bill, too. Perhaps we need another Constitutional Convention for the idea. Perhaps we can implement it better if we worked at it a second time.

The fact that there are so many ideas flowing makes me regret not running. I guess I'll just have to admire/contribute from afar.

If anything, the Secretary position was made to delegate a bit so that the Speaker doesn't have to be the most active out of everyone and pretty much running the show.  I don't mind posting topics in the Platform, but it shouldn't have to be the Speaker's job to do it all the time, hence delegation.

I appreciate the paragon sentiments, but the only reason I'm suggesting it for Laurentus and Colby is because they've been gone for so long.  I however am currently active, so it wouldn't make sense for that bill to come up for me just yet, especially since I do have a Commendation.  Perhaps if I disappear for a good while, it can be brought up. 

Yeah...I think that bugged a bit of people.  But at the same time, it can be hard to sit up and say your opinion at the right moment when the authors are very strong-willed and outspoken.  Call it cowardly or whatever you will, but I can at least understand being that person standing there wanting to say your bit, but when you're surrounded by others that hold strong opinions in the opposite direction and make it known, it can become difficult until the final moment appears.  Nothing against anyone involved in the drafting of the original bill, since it was essentially their baby that they had spent a good long time working on.  So I can definitely understand their feelings throughout.  I just think it was a bit shakier than just the idea of people waiting until the end to reject the proposal.  I think if everyone felt comfortable getting their thoughts out at the right time, it could have went differently.

Hey, well contributing from afar is still contributing, so even if you're not a part of the team, you're still an asset to have. 

I was also suggesting the Speaker pro tem be able to fill that role as well. I'm just trying to streamline things in case the Secretary isn't doing their job.

And I only gave you the Commendation because the Overhusen was worried that we haven't exhausted all available awards for you. If I remember correctly, we tried to take you straight to Paragon status. You don't have to be inactive to receive the Paragon award, you know.

Traditionally, only exceptional members who are no longer with us have been made Paragons. The concept was created when Charax was no longer allowed to be involved with NationStates, and I believe all Paragons have been inactive when they were rewarded the title (though some like Weissreich have returned later on). If I remember correctly, that was the main issue there.

It seems like when it comes to activity in the Underhusen, we dance around the main issue, which is that there's simply not much for it to do. It's rare that we have a treaty to consider or a law to adjust, the Storting has only needed to utilize its power to strip Citizenship once in nearly four years, and the very nature of commendations and paragonhood make those rare as well. The initial purpose of the last Constitutional Convention was to find new purpose for the Storting, but ended up mostly being about the structure of the Storting instead.

There are things that I like about the Storting in general...I like that we have regular elections for something, and when the Storting is active I like that it's something that promotes debate where otherwise I fear the discussion would devolve into 'whatever the Monarch wants' as I've seen in other Monarchies. But it's obvious that the issue has come to a head...people don't take the Storting seriously anymore, often including the people that run to be a part of it.

I know as someone who puts a lot of time and effort into Wintreath, it really pisses me off when we have candidates that don't even bother to campaign or even to vote in the election they're running in. I think that in a meritocratic society, serving in any government office should be an honour and a privilege that one has to work for to get and then work to keep, and that just doesn't happen in the Storting anymore.

The Storting must have a new sense of purpose...new reasons for being, or else the institution will continue to die a slow death.

Keep in mind, @Coco Bandicoot, that you're free to remove the current Secretary from office if you feel they aren't performing up to their job. [...]

Hey! Are you implying something about me?

I agree with Wintermoot that the Underhusen needs to continue and needs a new sense of purpose, and Pengu (Coco Bandicoot) has been doing a good job of trying to help with that by making this thread and similar ones about our plan this session.

Planning only goes so far, though.  If we plan but never produce, then Wintermoot's point is accurate.

Hey everyone! I now I'm really new here, but I have some experience with regional government and wanted to add in my two cents if I could

In my old region we had an open citizen legislature. I don't think that's an entirely great solution here. There are, I think, two problems when it comes to inactivity.  In regional governments. A lack of possibilities, and a lack of interest. The possibilities problem refers not only to a lack of possible positions people could serve in, but also the difficulty of acquiring those positions. The lack of interest point is self explanatory I think.

For Wintreath, at least when it comes to the Underhusen, I don't think a lack of possibility is the problem. From what I've seen, it seems most elections only have one more candidate than the number of seats. And there are many people who have consistently been in either the Underhusen or the government in some way. An open legislature isn't going to fix the fact that there just aren't enough people trying to be active in the legislature.

I tried to deal with inactivity at the Citizen's Congress in the Renegade Islands Alliance. It was rampant. I think that, as has been suggested, part of how we get people more involved is to make the legislature more open and engaged. If people see the Underhusen as something accessible and interesting rather than intimidating, they're more likely to interact with it as citizens as well as to possibly run in the elections. Speaking as someone who is interested in regional government, coming into the region and seeing that the Underhusen is filled with long standing, prominent members of the regions makes me apprehensive to try and interact with it. That's not to say that these types of citizens can't interact with government, obviously they should. But it would make more sense for some of them to be in the Overhusen, or in executive portions of the government.

I also agree that the Underhusen needs more of a purpose and responsilbity. Activity can help bring interest, but there needs to be a reason for that activity. I don't entirely know what that will be, as I think it has to be tied to the culture of the region. I don't know the region enough to make that designation, but a lot of people here do. Perhaps the Underhusen needs to be given new responsibilities so that new avenues are created for activity. Maybe the culture or place of the Underhusen needs to be changed so that it fits into a different mold of the region. Whatever it is, I think the change has to be big in order to make a significant boost in activity.

Anyway, that's most of my two cents. I have some suggestions for more specific changes, but I don't wanna overstep or anything. Like I said, y'all know far better than me what would fit Wintreath the best. I'd just like to see an active and engaging regional government, as that is one of my top interests.

Edit: Fixed spelling errors cause I'm a German monster

i agree with moot on this, the storting is rarely needed so we can restructure and give it all the new duties we want but at that point it will be artificial which leads to moots problem...no one taking it seriously. i think that the storting if anything should be made less active and only really used when actually necessary. you want activity but we aren't an actual country thats needs constant regulating and strict laws and so forth. I had a couple of ideas back when i ran to make it active but they required an overhaul of how we see this forum and it also went partly in hand with my economy system.

to summarize- moot has a point and i think that while pengu you mean well there simply isn't much to do. if you want activity then focus on our other parts of wintreath not our government system. also IRC meeting would be awesome because we can all get on the same page at the same time no delay and mixed words.

p.s i don't recall if wintreath has one or not but maybe a discord server because explaining stuff by actually talking could be so much easier.