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@HannahB: In 6.1, can the spelling of "waved" please be corrected to "waived"? I noticed that the version currently before the Underhusen has the same error, and we all know how much I dislike the inefficiency of Omnibus Spelling and Grammar Correction bills.

D'oh, yeah, thank you Colberius, I always muddle up stuff like this.

I'll change it immediately, and if you notice anything else don't hesitate to bring it up

How about adding a period in section 1?

Sorry to be that guy. (But you told me to bring it up.  )

@HannahB: In 6.1, can the spelling of "waved" please be corrected to "waived"? I noticed that the version currently before the Underhusen has the same error, and we all know how much I dislike the inefficiency of Omnibus Spelling and Grammar Correction bills.

D'oh, yeah, thank you Colberius, I always muddle up stuff like this.

I'll change it immediately, and if you notice anything else don't hesitate to bring it up

How about adding a period in section 1?

Sorry to be that guy. (But you told me to bring it up.  )

Ofcourse, and again, thank you for the corrections

Copied from UH discussion:

Honestly I still prefer my version of this; and you can call that bias but hear me out.

As a preemptive tl;dr - I think this is overly bureaucratic and complex for the relatively simple thing it's trying to achieve, and I understand it may not seem that way at first glance but it appears so to me...

2.7 Should a citizen have had their citizenship nation CtE, and they have been online within one week of the last check and make at least an average of 10 posts a day then the Monarch, or the Storting, may grant the citizen a restricted citizenship.

My problems with this section are three-fold:

1- It requires the somewhat difficult task of assessing potential candidates of this state in terms of their activity since the last citizenship check, and also their posts per day (whether that's an average posts per day from [total posts/total membership time] or posts via an average of daily posts, these are different things and it isn't elaborated on here)

2- 10 Posts a day is a lot, it doesn't sound like much but it gets pretty intense... It's 70 posts a week, or 300 posts every month and 3650 posts in a year... that's a lot of posts, in-fact only 5 of 974 members even have that many posts... going by current averages the only person with a large amount of posts and over 10 per day is Wintermoot himself and even then he only has 10.7 posts per day...
Of course the number can be changed fairly easily, but I dislike the idea that this would mean that people need to be active in order to get be put in this state, it means that it can't be applied to people who may be inactive for a potentially a long period, which is (IMO) the most common reason for Ceasing to Exist.

3-I wrote mine to allow the citizens to retain their citizenship fully, because I see it as a move away from the NS side of things, if you can still be a citizen without having a nation that means that the region is (however slightly) detached somewhat from NS, especially compared to other regions. By calling them "restricted citizens" and giving them "restricted citizenship" I feel it would show that we are still firmly connected to NS and separates these two classes of citizens.

Upon gaining this citizenship type the person shall get full citizenship upon returning their citizenship nation and informing the person tasked with maintaining citizenship. After gaining this citizenship type they must meet an average 10 posts a day and be online at least twice a week.

Same issues here as above, but exemplified. It is also currently not possible to determine whether or not someone has been online several times in a week or not without quite close monitoring, imagine if quite a few people ended up as "restricted citizens" then everyone of them would have to be monitored in terms of posts and activity every week... the work load gets worse and worse.

2.7.1 A citizen with restricted citizenship may loose it upon the act of the Monarch, an act of the Storting, or upon failing to meet the requirements. Upon loosing it all citizenship shall be lost. Further revocation of restricted citizenship shall not be counted as revocation of citizenship within the Storting.

This section isn't so bad, it's basically the same as section 6.2 of my amendment, but with more words and clarifications.

2.7.2 People with restricted citizenship are not be eligible to run or stand in elections or to assume office. For the purposes of elected offices held prior to gaining this status, they shall be considered non-citizens. People with restricted citizenship may, however, vote.

I really don't see the point in this... if the person is active (as this act ensures) then why shouldn't they be allowed to hold positions of government? I don't see why you would need to separate out citizens and "restricted citizens" more like this. It makes it almost a pointless endeavor to apply for this.

To sorta conclude all this; the only benefit of applying for "restricted citizenship" would be to vote: and would anyone find that worth it when they had to ensure they remained active, have someone monitoring their activity, not be allowed to stand in elections themselves or be appointed to positions, all while still being labeled differently... If I were in that position I simply wouldn't vote or regain my citizenship for the duration of the vote...

And done.

In all honesty, if its decided that we keep it at some limit rather than allow any permanents outside of paragons...it should be an either/or situation.  Either citizens need to have an active nation OR they need to make 25 posts a month (roughly 0.83 posts a day).

That way, we keep the NS roots and those who are a part of it can continue to be so without worrying about posting on the forums an exceptional amount.  Likewise, those of us who aren't in the most tune with NS anymore can continue being citizens without having to log on to a site we don't even use anymore.

And 1 post a day is nothing.  And 25 even allows people to miss a couple of days of making a single post.

I still think the probationary period thing leading to more relaxed requirements is the best way to go if we want to keep permanent residency to paragons....but this at the least would be another happy compromise

As I said before, I would be fine with a requirement of having an active nation or making 10 posts a month...25 is fine too, though.

@HannahB here is the thing if a person can't be assed to log into an account every one to two months for an NS region, which operates through NS, then why should they have any part in our government for our region? The only exception I will give is to paragons, but I have issues with that.

We are still an NS region and will be. I joined as a part of an NS region. This is still an NS region. Is it really such a hard thing to keep an account alive for a group that is apart of the game the account is on?

Edit: Also someone wouldn't apply for it ideally. It would be something the Monarch or Starting would give to someone like Pengu or Laurentus where they no longer want to be apart of the NS side of the region, but want to be apart of this community. This allows them to be apart ID guilds and vote and stuff...

We're a community before we're anything else, and this one debate notwithstanding, the NS portions of the community haven't been all that active in a long while. As I said when I originally proposed a change, I hope that the day will come when people will come to be part of the community or be involved in other things we're doing...it'll be hard to convince them to join if they have to also have a nation in a game they don't play. I see it more as looking to the future, but it happens to dovetail with what Laurentus and Pengu want as well for the most part.

Hannah later explained this wasn't actually meant for me or Pengu. And I support her reasoning.

We're a community before we're anything else, and this one debate notwithstanding, the NS portions of the community haven't been all that active in a long while. As I said when I originally proposed a change, I hope that the day will come when people will come to be part of the community or be involved in other things we're doing...it'll be hard to convince them to join if they have to also have a nation in a game they don't play. I see it more as looking to the future, but it happens to dovetail with what Laurentus and Pengu want as well for the most part.

No, we only exist because the NS region was created. Now if the region CtE'd but the community stayed I would agree with you. Ultimately my act is to only apply to those that are already here anyway. Further I would honestly state that we would be better off with people that can't be assed to make an account for a game that this is apart of. They have no right to complain.

Chanku, can you remind me how active our military is?

Just because I don't do things in the military doesn't mean I don't do things in NS.

Just because I don't do things in the military doesn't mean I don't do things in NS.

You might. That doesn necessarily mean that other members (or most, for that matter) of our community do. And even if members individually participate in NS, the community as a whole might not.

Since this is still a thing, and I actually think this is an important issue that shouldn't be dropped, I wrote my own proposal.

Spoiler

The Community Citizenship Amendment Act

Title
1) This Act shall be cited as the Community Citizenship Amendment Act.

Amendments
2) Section 2.2 of the Citizenship and Demonyn Act shall be amended as follows:

Previous Text:

2.2 Citizens are required to keep the nation which they gained membership with within the region unless they inform the person (or government agency) empowered to accept or reject citizenship applications by section 2.4 of this act.

Amended Text:

2.2 Citizenship may be maintained by one of the following methods:
2.2.1 Keeping the NationStates nation which they gained membership with within the Wintreath region
2.2.2 Making at least five (5) posts on the Wintreath forums during the previous calendar month, beginning with their second calendar month as a Citizen

It basically does what I advocated for earlier in the topic...allowing for Citizens to maintain their status either by keeping their NS nation or by making at least five posts in the previous month. In any case, there are now three proposals on the matter...Hannah's original proposal, Chanku's, and mine. Recognizing that there's disagreement about what form this should take, I think each proposal has merits that at least some people advocated for. There doesn't seem to be much discussion left to be had on this, so now would be a good time for the Storting to take up one or more of the proposals.

Also, in looking up the law to write the amendment, I realized that having a NS nation isn't technically required to gain Citizenship, just to maintain it.

I'm more comfortable with that proposal since it gives an option of NS activity or forum activity.  Just because we were started because of NS doesn't mean that has to be the main factor in how we do/decide/run everything.  We're a community first and foremost, and the government and politics here should benefit that community and all its citizens.._not just the ones that still play NS.  As far as NS roles such as Delegate and the military/ambassadors? Sure, keep that to NS players since those positions are ones that are directly involved with the game itself.  But other areas such as the cabinet, OH and UH should continue the way they are with the only requirement being that one must be a citizen to be eligible (along with Moot's own requirements for the former 2 since those are both by his appointment only).  5 posts a month is really little, though.  What happened to 10?

It seemed like some people had an issue with a post requirement at all originally, so I lowered it from 10 to 5 since that seems equivalent to the effort needed to maintain a nation. We can always use a different number though.