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There used to be an introduction section at the end of the Citizenship app...would it be better to have the intro in the app?

There used to be an introduction section at the end of the Citizenship app...would it be better to have the intro in the app?

I liked having a welcome thread for each person that is separate from the apps so that others can ask questions without the person making an AMA thread or welcome the new person. I like the questions and welcomes to be in a separate place from the place where the citizenship app is accepted.

A separate welcome thread could also introduce the new person to the other members and the other members to the new person, as opposed to an AMA where the other members are introduced to the new one. In AMAs, it feels like it's more one-sided than in a welcome thread.

I also think that adding an "introduce yourself" subforum is a good idea

Or rather, restoring, since IIRC that used to be a thing.

I'm honestly kind of opposed to a post requirement. I mean, in complete honesty, if it wasn't for the fact that I had sweet fuck-all to do while way out in the boonies, I would have continued my bullheaded obstinacy of not joining the forums because the idea of having to make 5 posts when I don't know anybody, and don't know if I can contribute, is kind of alarming. It helped that Ainur refugees did know me and welcomed me, but I imagine it's much worse for someone who is genuinely new to the game and the community as a whole.
I think what it really is is that having a post requirement kind of makes it feel like you're intruding into rather than joining a community. That requirement kind of suggests 'there is a club, and you're not necessarily in it', and that can be a big disincentive to try and join in.

As an addendum to that, I might suggest that in order to really make someone feel like they're wanted in the community (as opposed to just sort of passively being like 'oh okay you're new here') that, rather than have them create an AMA or something like that, that someone else (ordinarily I'd suggest the Jarl of Integration but he seems to have dropped off the face of the planet) create a welcome thread for them (once they'd been granted citizenship, natch). There it's kind of a place where we introduce ourselves to them, so it's not a 'hi I'm the new guy' kind of deal, it's more of a 'hey, we're glad you're joining us!'
That to me seems like a much more successful means of integrating new people into the community, as opposed to just passively letting them insert themselves in a way that they might feel is a bit intrusive.
I might also suggest automatically assigning a mentor, and then letting the person say 'oh, no, that's not really necessary' if they don't want one. Of course, that would require people who'd be down to mentor.

As an addendum to that, I might suggest that in order to really make someone feel like they're wanted in the community (as opposed to just sort of passively being like 'oh okay you're new here') that, rather than have them create an AMA or something like that, that someone else (ordinarily I'd suggest the Jarl of Integration but he seems to have dropped off the face of the planet) create a welcome thread for them (once they'd been granted citizenship, natch). There it's kind of a place where we introduce ourselves to them, so it's not a 'hi I'm the new guy' kind of deal, it's more of a 'hey, we're glad you're joining us!'
That to me seems like a much more successful means of integrating new people into the community, as opposed to just passively letting them insert themselves in a way that they might feel is a bit intrusive.
I might also suggest automatically assigning a mentor, and then letting the person say 'oh, no, that's not really necessary' if they don't want one. Of course, that would require people who'd be down to mentor.

Those are some good ideas...unfortunately as you mentioned we have some issues with some of the ministries, but they're good ideas that ought to be enacted. I'm curious...in these topics that someone would create to welcome people to the community, would they say just about the same thing or try to customize it? I'm asking because I imagine it would be hard to come up with more than a few variations of a welcome post, but on the other hand we could try our hand at automating it when someone is made a Citizen.

On the other hand, by that point they've already had to post a Citizenship app...wouldn't they have already introduced themselves in a way by then?

Or rather, restoring, since IIRC that used to be a thing.

I don't believe there was ever a dedicated subforum for introductions...at one time the AMA forum functioned for both, though.

Or rather, restoring, since IIRC that used to be a thing.

I don't believe there was ever a dedicated subforum for introductions...at one time the AMA forum functioned for both, though.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Pretty sure it was first AMA+intros, then apps+intros, but now, Gatekeep's Post doesn't even mention introductions.

As I mentioned I might do the other day, I put together some data on the matter. I took the number of recruitment telegrams sent, the maximum regional population recorded by NSDossier, and the number of Citizenship applications posted, and then I put them in a chart with trendlines. For all cases, blue are months before the requirement was implemented, and red are months after it was implemented.



As it so happens, we haven't recruited nearly as much after the change as before, which partially explains the issue. However, even comparing months before and after the requirement was adopted where nearly the same number of telegrams were sent, months from before the requirement almost universally saw more Citizenship apps. I have to admit, I'm not an expert statistician, but at least to me the data is fairly compelling.

Inspired by Wintermoot's post I finally decided to make some graphs based off of the data I presented to the Underhusen (You can find that here )

Images

Unmarked


Marked (with the date that the Post Requirement took effect)

(Note: The last chart is not the same chart type as the other two, it is an XY chat, due to the fact that Line Chart's don't do the line well, I also only had the last chart in lines because I had to do something hackish to get it to work, and the line wouldn't have appeared outside of the line graph)

Edit: While talking to Wintermoot I figured out how I could combine some of the data he was talking about to see if there was an alternative cause, or any correlations with other factors, so I checked to see if the amount of recruiting has any direct effect on the numbers of Citizens we have, from the graphs that I have show no direct effect on the two, below are the graphs.

Moar Graphz

(Duplicates and Outlier removed)

There seemed to have been a data error between the first two graphs, however that error is in an outlier so I am less worried about that at this time. I defined Duplicate as any data for a month that had multiple points (this was relevant for the Citizenship Numbers), in which I removed all of the data for that month, except the last reported citizenship value, the outlier that I excluded the citizenship number and telegrams sent that were reported May of 2015. This would lead me to believe that there recruitment has no direct correlation on citizenship numbers, somewhat surprisingly.

However, I will also note that the correlation between Nation Numbers and Telegram Amounts are have a very weak positive correlation, with the correlation coefficient for the data (both with and without that outlier for recruitment removed) are below 0.30, With the outlier it was roughly 0.22 and without it it was roughly 0.16, I would expect it to be more strongly correlated. This leads me to believe that the dataset Wintermoot provided is too small to use when it comes to these kinds of analysis, and thus would make the conclusions drawn here to be inaccurate.

Also please note that I may have made an error during this or, in fact, mis-interpreted or misread any of these numbers. I may also be doing something incorrectly, I only took one DC Stats Class (taught by someone who was horrible and frequently got things wrong) that I didn't pay attention in this past school year, and the data graphs may also be incorrect due to errors in data collection. Any one who knows more of what they are talking about would be greatly appreciated for their double-checking of my information.

I think the issue with your second series of graphs is that you're comparing total Citizens against telegrams sent, when the number of Citizens is determined by other things as well such as nations CTEing, the number of checks done that month (Citizenship checks have happened more often recently), and after November 2016 whether they had made at least five post that month or the previous month. Total Citizen numbers in the checks also include Paragons, who in many cases haven't been involved in the region in years. Since so much more goes into it, you wouldn't expect a strong correlation between recruitment for a particular month and the cumulative number of Citizens up to that point.

I think a better comparison is telegrams sent vs Citizenship apps...even there it's not perfect, but you would expect a stronger correlation since most (but not all, which is why it isn't perfect) members apply soon after being recruited to the region by a telegram.

Those are some good ideas...unfortunately as you mentioned we have some issues with some of the ministries, but they're good ideas that ought to be enacted. I'm curious...in these topics that someone would create to welcome people to the community, would they say just about the same thing or try to customize it? I'm asking because I imagine it would be hard to come up with more than a few variations of a welcome post, but on the other hand we could try our hand at automating it when someone is made a Citizen.

On the other hand, by that point they've already had to post a Citizenship app...wouldn't they have already introduced themselves in a way by then?

I mean, if you thought that would be effective, sure, it could very well simply be a sort of forum equivalent to the welcome TG that everybody who moves into the region gets - but if anyone .
To be honest, it could very well just be one topic where whenever somebody gets citizenship, they get a shoutout and people pile on and welcome them - or it could just be a sort of tacit encouragement for, at the very least, the Underhusen, Ministers, etc. to jump in on someone's citizenship app and say 'hey what up'. It's just that I think the goal should be to take away the feeling that the new person is doing the online equivalent of walking up to a group of people he doesn't know at a party, and instead make it feel more like they're being actively encouraged to join this group by the people in it.

And sure, they've already introduced themselves, but 1) that's a great tool to personalize people's welcome messages with, since they'll have said things about themselves (and everyone loves talking about themselves, with the clear exception of me, seeing as I'm the most humble person in the world), and 2) in online communities there's always this feeling of everyone kind of knowing you (because you've introduced yourself) but you not knowing them (unless you take the time to go dig up their citizenship app), and that kind of blunts conversations because suddenly the easiest topic in the world (again, talking about themselves) is sort of talked out already.

I think the issue with your second series of graphs is that you're comparing total Citizens against telegrams sent, when the number of Citizens is determined by other things as well such as nations CTEing, the number of checks done that month (Citizenship checks have happened more often recently), and after November 2016 whether they had made at least five post that month or the previous month. Total Citizen numbers in the checks also include Paragons, who in many cases haven't been involved in the region in years. Since so much more goes into it, you wouldn't expect a strong correlation between recruitment for a particular month and the cumulative number of Citizens up to that point.

I think a better comparison is telegrams sent vs Citizenship apps...even there it's not perfect, but you would expect a stronger correlation since most (but not all, which is why it isn't perfect) members apply soon after being recruited to the region by a telegram.

However that doesn't explain the things I came across in my edit, meaning the rather weak correlation between Nation Numbers and Telegrams sent, which I expected to at least have a correlation coeffecient of 0.30, meaning it would be, weakly correlated. Also Wintermoot I never said I expected a strong correlation between Citizenship Numbers and Telegram amounts, however I will admit I expected a stronger correlation beyond what is shown, in fact I expected it to get around 0.15, but I didn't.

 In any case I decided to redo the second series of graphs, but I got the same thing, I did put together a second graph, which excluded the months that I didn't have citizenship numbers for (I previously threw all of them into a graph which was a mistake, unfortunately I didn't save this new graph), which revealed a correlation coefficient of 0.12, with that outlier (I didn't recompute without the outlier, but I expect it would be even less that 0.10, which, if I recall correctly, means there is practically no correlation). This leads me to revise my previous statement, in that I do not believe we can faithfully compare the two data sets due to the fact that the second (Wintermoot's Data Set) due to it being too small and the first data set (My data set/Citizenship Numbers) due to the fact that My data set is also too small when excluding the data before March 2015, and when comparing the two the citizenship count is not collected every month past March 2015.

So basically, unless someone wants to compute the data for citizenship at the end of every month, excluding paragons the conclusions drawn from here seem somewhat useless for our uses, as we don't have enough citizenship data to compare it against the other dataset, and I am unsure we have enough data from before the measure was implemented in order to draw meaningful conclusions from that.

Well, the nation numbers are misleading because they're the maximum recorded by NSDossier in that month...if the region was in decline at the time, the maximum would have been at the beginning of the month...if I had used the minimum count in a month the numbers would have been very different in some areas. In any case, I included it as a frame of reference rather than something to do hard statistics with.

I mean, if you thought that would be effective, sure, it could very well simply be a sort of forum equivalent to the welcome TG that everybody who moves into the region gets - but if anyone .
To be honest, it could very well just be one topic where whenever somebody gets citizenship, they get a shoutout and people pile on and welcome them - or it could just be a sort of tacit encouragement for, at the very least, the Underhusen, Ministers, etc. to jump in on someone's citizenship app and say 'hey what up'. It's just that I think the goal should be to take away the feeling that the new person is doing the online equivalent of walking up to a group of people he doesn't know at a party, and instead make it feel more like they're being actively encouraged to join this group by the people in it.

And sure, they've already introduced themselves, but 1) that's a great tool to personalize people's welcome messages with, since they'll have said things about themselves (and everyone loves talking about themselves, with the clear exception of me, seeing as I'm the most humble person in the world), and 2) in online communities there's always this feeling of everyone kind of knowing you (because you've introduced yourself) but you not knowing them (unless you take the time to go dig up their citizenship app), and that kind of blunts conversations because suddenly the easiest topic in the world (again, talking about themselves) is sort of talked out already.

Do you think it'd be the same as if everyone introduced themselves in their Citizenship topic? I suppose we don't really talk much about ourselves to new members...just welcome them and approve their app. =/

I mean, if you thought that would be effective, sure, it could very well simply be a sort of forum equivalent to the welcome TG that everybody who moves into the region gets - but if anyone .
To be honest, it could very well just be one topic where whenever somebody gets citizenship, they get a shoutout and people pile on and welcome them - or it could just be a sort of tacit encouragement for, at the very least, the Underhusen, Ministers, etc. to jump in on someone's citizenship app and say 'hey what up'. It's just that I think the goal should be to take away the feeling that the new person is doing the online equivalent of walking up to a group of people he doesn't know at a party, and instead make it feel more like they're being actively encouraged to join this group by the people in it.

And sure, they've already introduced themselves, but 1) that's a great tool to personalize people's welcome messages with, since they'll have said things about themselves (and everyone loves talking about themselves, with the clear exception of me, seeing as I'm the most humble person in the world), and 2) in online communities there's always this feeling of everyone kind of knowing you (because you've introduced yourself) but you not knowing them (unless you take the time to go dig up their citizenship app), and that kind of blunts conversations because suddenly the easiest topic in the world (again, talking about themselves) is sort of talked out already.

Do you think it'd be the same as if everyone introduced themselves in their Citizenship topic? I suppose we don't really talk much about ourselves to new members...just welcome them and approve their app. =/

Perhaps we should add back the old Section II of the application that asked new members to introduce themselves.

I have an idea that could potentially be used for the issue of not enough people wanting to be mentors. Perhaps we could have people in the government that have been here for X amount of time must mentor at least one person X period of time?

So elected officials would be required to mentor someone prior to an election or after an election to stand for reelection and the Monarch could set the requirement for the Riksrad?