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So...if there isn't any further discussion to be had, would someone be kind enough to move it to the Underhusen?

Shall do in a little bit if no one else does first

I think this would be a decent opportunity to make a push to divert the RMB people over here. Something easy to approach, maybe even a section where they can post unregistered. The RMB after all is a mess, so providing the opportunity to have a thread for maps, another for something else they like to do over there et cetera (they should have the power to create those threads themselves).

This is awfully likely a really dumb question, but do we actually have somewhere a thread or a page that somehow illustrates the meaning/benefit of being a citizen? To me those statistics say that people come and apply because that's what they feel like they are supposed to do.

Having them submit a few posts before getting the privilege of applying for citizenship may partly fail if my assumption above is true. If we take this route, we should make sure the entire citizenship system works as intended. Is this kind of legislation the best way? Are we sure the same result could not be achieved just by changing a few words here and there and slapping a friendly "Please join the forums. Like what you see? Consider applying for citizenship. Click here to read what citizenship entails." somewhere?

I understand the logistics and statistical side, but since I'm one of those who would be uncomfortable joining a forum that has such requisites, no matter how insignificant they may be, I must voice my opposition. Community that demands that you participate/contribute diminishes its appeal. You know what they say about first impressions. This would be a bad law.

I have to somewhat agree with tatte here. I also have a few concerns over the law, on the basis of it potentially violating the administrative section of the Fundamental Laws. Further this doesn't have to be Law. Wintermoot can simply direct all people with the authority to accept citizenship applications to not accept applications until they have reached the limit and also request that all people make that requirement in order to be considered.

Also just a quick note, had there been a post requirement when I joined, I would have not joined Wintreath as a Citizen, at least at that time. So it seems you WILL be actively deterring people that would be willing to contribute with this policy, and honestly I have to say I do NOT believe this is a good policy. 

In fairness, we have taken measures to make the Citizenship process quicker and faster. We've substantially shortened the Citizenship form, and with the entire Riksråd able to process applications things go much quicker. We're also going to keep better watch of Citizens with fewer than 50 posts, and try to help them out of it looks like they're struggling in the region.

What's being forgotten here is that unlike many other regions where you have to be a Citizen to do much of anything, or to even view their forums in some cases, our entire culture area is open to anyone that makes an account. Not only does that make it simpler to reach five posts, but it also means that Citizenship is only really needed to participate in government or to join the military, and if they are averse to making four posts plus their Citizenship app, how are they going to be part of those things? Joining the forum has no such requisites...our requisites to be part of the community are lower than almost every other region in the game...it's really just participating in government and the military that requires such requisites.

But that brings up what you said, tatte...you're right, people probably come and apply because they feel like that's what they're supposed to do, and that's not necessarily true. If people want to become Citizens that's great, but what we really want is for people to get involved with the community. As I was talking with Weissreich somewhere, it may be that we're overemphasizing Citizenship and not emphasizing just being on the forums enough. That's something I'm trying to change with things like the Codex of Topics. If we can get people involved in the community, I'm sure eventually they'll become Citizens anyhow...if they apply for Citizenship and never get involved in the community, we just lose them.

I have to somewhat agree with tatte here. I also have a few concerns over the law, on the basis of it potentially violating the administrative section of the Fundamental Laws. Further this doesn't have to be Law. Wintermoot can simply direct all people with the authority to accept citizenship applications to not accept applications until they have reached the limit and also request that all people make that requirement in order to be considered.

That is something I would consider to be a legal but inappropriate use of executive power. The Fundamental Laws is very clear that the Storting sets Citizenship policy...while the authority may have been delegated to me as well, I know that it was with the unspoken intention of being used in rare, individual cases, such as the one time that it's been used in. It was never intended to allow the Monarchy to circumvent the Storting and set its own Citizenship policy that would be applied to everyone. For that reason, this is not a route that I will be perusing.

Wintermoot Section 2.5 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act gives you this authority.

Honestly I would rather you use this authority than just passing it into law, because honestly I think you just want to be able to say you can't do anything about it. For once in your life take a stand with pride, I don't understand how you can stand to the side!

Further this doesn't have to be Law. Wintermoot can simply direct all people with the authority to accept citizenship applications to not accept applications until they have reached the limit and also request that all people make that requirement in order to be considered.

Honestly I would rather you use this authority than just passing it into law.

At what point does a monarch "directing" outside of the law stay outside of the law, and how long does it stay that way before it effectively becomes law?

As for everything else, I think that if we emphasize forum membership moreso than citizenship, RMB users (and new Wintreans in general) will move here and participate and then decide whether to advance to citizenship. By that point potential citizens will already be more prepared than just offering citizenship outright where new recruits are confronted with indecision on how to participate.

Wintermoot Section 2.5 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act gives you this authority.

Honestly I would rather you use this authority than just passing it into law, because honestly I think you just want to be able to say you can't do anything about it. For once in your life take a stand with pride, I don't understand how you can stand to the side!

I have already answered the first portion of your post, and won't be dignifying the second portion with a response.

Wintermoot Section 2.5 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act gives you this authority.

Honestly I would rather you use this authority than just passing it into law, because honestly I think you just want to be able to say you can't do anything about it. For once in your life take a stand with pride, I don't understand how you can stand to the side!

I have already answered the first portion of your post, and won't be dignifying the second portion with a response.

Wasn't that technically giving it a response? (Also I believe @Reon might have something to say about the last part )

Further this doesn't have to be Law. Wintermoot can simply direct all people with the authority to accept citizenship applications to not accept applications until they have reached the limit and also request that all people make that requirement in order to be considered.

Honestly I would rather you use this authority than just passing it into law.

At what point does a monarch "directing" outside of the law stay outside of the law, and how long does it stay that way before it effectively becomes law?

So long as it can be reversed as soon as it's realized this is a bad policy very quickly, I don't really care. If Wintermoot believes it's better to forgo our accepting nature and become more exclusive than it's his prerogative to do so.

So, I took a little look after reading through Chanku's complaint, and the FL deems this proposed amendment entirely legal through this clause:

15. The Storting shall have the authority to interpret these Fundamental Laws and statutory laws and consider the constitutionality over laws brought before the Storting, determine rulings and verdicts in regard to violations of these laws, and determine punishments for violations of these laws within the parameters of these Fundamental Laws and any other laws.

Chanku's point is actually well made in that the Citizenship and Demonym Act states:

   2.5 The Monarch, or any subordinate official appointed by the Monarch, shall have the authority to grant or deny citizenship to any person who applies.

However, under the cited subsection of the FL, the Underhusen has the authority to interpret this law as it sees fit. I argue that rather than occluding our ability to legislate on citizenship matters (as we already have done with the Cit. & Den. Act anyway), sec. 2.5 rather notes the ability of the Monarch to enact Royal Prerogative in the acceptance or denial of citizenship. In no way does this section prevent the Storting from legislating a citizenship requirement of 5 posts, rather it allows Mootles to ignore that legislation should he so think it's needed (e.g. he knows an applicant is likely to be trouble, so denies/revokes; or he believes in good faith an applicant will fulfil the requirements of citizenship and thus sidesteps the approval process)

As we all know, Mootles has been studious about sticking to the powers he has in law and has AFAIK never used any of his executive powers that could be described as superseding the legislative process or already enacted law. I don't think we have anything to worry about from this amendment.

Another thing we should consider here is that this kind of post requirement robs away the chance to provide mentors and in general wastes the opportunity to provide any kind of personal spot-on guidance before new members start roaming around.

I would much rather see the current citizenship application process be turned into residency application that requires no masking. New members would be asked to post a similar application, they'd receive their warm welcomes, mentors could still be appointed early on and we'd avoid losing those who'd turn around at the "you must be this tall to take this ride" -sign.

Actual citizenship could then be barricaded behind even higher requirements since it would no longer be the sort of initiation to Wintreanthy that it is today. Ten posts, maybe fifteen posts? However crazy you want to go. Then by the time people felt like this is where they want to stay, we would likely even have an actual clue of what kind of persons they are, and could further help them thrive here.

Our population would regardless be divided from the second we start demanding deposits from the would-be citizens. The better the repelling stench of such control would be hidden, the more likely we would start seeing active members who never bother to seek the citizenship.

I see no reason why we can't take it forward whilst adapting the current proposal, Tatte. Why not make citizenship an optional masking on the forum at X number of posts, with residency being the benefit of just signing up for an account (aka, no access to legislative areas but pretty much everything else). Rather than making Citizenship something that one has to work for, it becomes something you take on should you want to be more involved in the region.

@Laurentus @North @Point Breeze @Pengu @Barnes @HannahB

I'm doing this to try and bring the Skrifas over here and discuss this with the citizens. Both me and Chanku, the two persons with most political support after you seven oppose this. Please make this a proper discussion. Weissreich has done a great job, but he is just one person.

I could support Weiss' suggestion. It's reasonable. Adding a post count requirement just discourages people from seeking citizenship. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure the spam section is open to non-citizens which makes any post count requirement nothing more than a redundancy. I don't participate in these discussions often, but in this case I feel that I must.

@Chanku is it legal to legislate without the full Underhusen? (Reference)