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But what if the victim wants to handle it through the court instead? Now they can also be prosecuted on a lesser charge....

That would essentially publicly record that we allow illegal conduct, to some degree.

The victim most likely won't. In fact, once something like that happens, many people would really just leave a region or even NS behind. So there's no point in drawing it out.

After hearing from people, I want to post my final thoughts on this, and then I'm out of this thread unless I'm tagged.

Sexual harassment is indeed a crime.  While it may not be of the highest sort in the real world until it escalates...on Wintreath it is ABSOLUTELY the highest sort.

However, it's also one of the worst types because it's one the is damaging to the victims both during after after it takes place.

Those viewing this topic need to stop looking at it with witch hunting spectacles and look at it for what it is:

Someone decides to be a sexual predator and attack a victim, or multiple victims.  This isn't just some simple exchange or typical argument like you might see in IRC.  This is literally someone either trying to blackmail other members into something of sexual nature, emotionally abuse them to a high point, or is doing something that is putting those victims into a highly uncomfortable position.

And this isn't something that just happens in a day.  This could go on for weeks, or even months, before the victim even tries to come forward.  That's a long time of emotional and sexual abuse, regardless if it's the internet or not.

What this act is asking is that we get a court system to display those accounts of sexual and emotional abuse for either the public to see, or for those presiding.

Either way, it's pushing the victims to post things that are highly personal and damaging to them.  It's not only disrespectful, it's downright vile to do.  I don't honestly care what the reasoning is for doing it.  If someone chose to be a sexual predator and chose to be such so brazenly to any of our members, they don't deserve to have fair process on here.  They deserve to be thrown to the curb and let some other region deal with them if they choose.

There's a difference between the real world and here.  If this happened in the real world, they wouldn't have to worry about people leaving their city because they felt uncomfortable, because you pay to live there.

In Wintreath, we have to worry that if we damage our members too much, they'll walk up and leave us for another region.  I don't want to damage our members' well-being and potentially our region itself just so such a character can have a fair process.  I love each of our members, and if they feel like they can't even be safe here, then there's something wrong.

I will agree that there needs to be a rule against sexual harassment, but I don't think the storting should have any place in the process of dealing with a person accused and proven of it.

The way Wintermoot handled it was completely justified, and I think it should stay that way so as to be courteous to any victims, and to keep things completely confidential.

Enough arguing, I think. The majority of the response here has indicated people would definitely prefer to have it handled exactly like it's already been handled by the administration. So I think we should move on. We're creating drama where there really should be none, and not sending a very good message to onlookers.

I'll close with the following: if the perpetrator feels they've been unfairly treated, or falsely accused or whatever else, they have to take it up through real legal action if they want to do it at all. So I don't really see how anything in the way Wintermoot handled this was unlawful or unjustified.

Pebgu here is the thing I want this to be an option, not a recommended one, but an option nonetheless. If someone, for some reason, choose to use the court for this they may do so. If they choose to go through administration they may do so. We can create special procedure to also mitigate any potential harm as well.

Again I have said this MANY TIMES TONIGHT: "A COURT CASE DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TO WAIT OR CAN NOT ACT. ULTIMATELY IT CAN ACT IF THEIR ACTIONS VIOLATE THE RULES THAT THE ADMINS HAVE PUT FORTH"

Pebgu here is the thing I want this to be an option, not a recommended one, but an option nonetheless. If someone, for some reason, choose to use the court for this they may do so. If they choose to go through administration they may do so. We can create special procedure to also mitigate any potential harm as well.

Again I have said this MANY TIMES TONIGHT: "A COURT CASE DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TO WAIT OR CAN NOT ACT. ULTIMATELY IT CAN ACT IF THEIR ACTIONS VIOLATE THE RULES THAT THE ADMINS HAVE PUT FORTH"

And I'm saying it shouldn't even be an option.

The victims deserve their privacy in the matter, and invoking any kind of court system goes completely against that.

If the victims step forward and say they want the accused to have fair process and willingly share their logs, that's an entirely different story.

However, 95% of the time that isn't going to happen unless the account wasn't severe.

Here is the thing though, not allowing the victim to choose this is essentially speaking for and over the victim in my opinion. If we do not add this then in the future someone will not be able to have a trial and allow a punishment that fits the crime to be there. Instead, unless the person is a Riksrad or Royal Family member, the person may get a comparatively light punishment for a serious crime. Adding it to our laws now allows full justice to be served should a victim decide to go the court route

Here is the thing though, not allowing the victim to choose this is essentially speaking for and over the victim in my opinion. If we do not add this then in the future someone will not be able to have a trial and allow a punishment that fits the crime to be there. Instead, unless the person is a Riksrad or Royal Family member, the person may get a comparatively light punishment for a serious crime. Adding it to our laws now allows full justice to be served should a victim decide to go the court route

If the victims step forward and say they want the accused to have fair process and willingly share their logs, that's an entirely different story.

I'm not going to agree with supporting a precedent before such a case occurs.  If this happens again and that be the case, then we can talk about it and put it through the courts.

But until then, I think we need to leave it alone.

Chanku. What you just said was beyond insane, and I'm sorry that I have to be so blunt.

IN WHAT WORLD WILL A VICTIM OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN THIS REGION RECEIVE LESS JUSTICE THAN ONE IN THE RIKSRAD OR ROYAL FAMILY IF THEY TAKE IT THROUGH ADMINISTRATION?!

Then I hope you enjoy miscarriages of justice because that is what you are going to get with this policy. The CoCL prevents ex post facto application. Meaning that unless we do it before such a crime occurs and a victim wants to go through the courts the victim will not have he ability to seek the ultimate justice in Wintrean Law, Citizenship Revocation and PnG declaration through the courts.

I do advocate for the use of administration by default, but we shoid allow it to occur because in all honesty we can nor say this will never happen and if it does we should prevent a miscarriage of justice from occurring.

(I was speaking legally through the CoCL I am rather tired so I may have missed spoken or not made my point clear enough)

Here is the thing though, not allowing the victim to choose this is essentially speaking for and over the victim in my opinion. If we do not add this then in the future someone will not be able to have a trial and allow a punishment that fits the crime to be there. Instead, unless the person is a Riksrad or Royal Family member, the person may get a comparatively light punishment for a serious crime. Adding it to our laws now allows full justice to be served should a victim decide to go the court route

I'm sorry, your implication seems pretty clear to me.

Chanku, don't start a tantrum just because you're not getting your way.

Stop looking at your crusader tirade as you always do, and look at it through the eyes of another for once.

You're completely disregarding others' feelings to justify your own system.  You're getting butthurt because people actually agree with the precedent that was already set by Wintermoot, and you're starting to have a tantrum because people aren't agreeing with you.

You're a Prince, and the Jarl of Defense.  Please act like it.

Just because this act isn't supported now doesn't mean it won't in the future.

As I said, if a future victim of sexual harassment decides that they're okay enough to use sensitive logs for a trial and give their permission, then by all means reintroduce this with their blessing and ours.

But until then, leave it alone and move on.  You're arguing a losing battle here, and you're resorting to trying to make us feel bad for not supporting your decision, and that's highly unbecoming of you.

Maybe you just don't want to hear the truth. The truth of the matter is we can not say a victim will never want to bring it to the courts and in your situtatiin the case couldn't be filed anyone because the Code of Criminal laws prevents applying any section of it to an action committed before that section was in effect. Therefore unless they happened to be a Royal Member like me, or a Riksrad member like you or I they would be forced to go through administration or have a miscarriage of justice occur.

I also feel like you are outright ignoring what I am saying as well. I am not advocating the disruption of the precedent what I am advocating for is the prevention of a miscarriage of justice and not forcing victims to have to go through administration should they choose not too. Wintermoot would still have full authority to do as he did even with this in law, the only difference is that it would allow future victims to get justice in the courts should the choose.

I can't even...

Yeah, I'm definitely not going to respond to that, because if I do all hell will break loose.