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Red Mones
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  • Anyone else notice when you hit the Like button, it switches to “Unike” instead of “Unlike”?
    5 people like this post: Dani, Gerrick, taulover, Hydra, BraveSirRobin
    Red Mones
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  • Anyone else notice when you hit the Like button, it switches to “Unike” instead of “Unlike”?
    @Wintermoot pls help thank
    2 people like this post: Red Mones, Gerrick
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    taulover
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    Red Mones
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  • Did you just test that using my comment?????
    4 people like this post: taulover, BraveSirRobin, Hydra, Imaginative Kane
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    Wintermoot
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  • #WinterNotes: If I had a blog this is a post I would make in it.

    Earlier today I was reading through emails that I'm subscribed to, and came across one Ramit Sethi (author of the New York Times Bestseller I Will Teach You to Be Rich as well as an instructor on a wide range of personal improvement, finance, and business topics), where he was talking about the mindsets and invisible scripts that people form. In particular, he pointed out how people in the military view learning completely different from other people, and quoted a podcast interview from Karen Baetzel, a retired Navy pilot:

    Quote
    “Here’s the rule of thumb in the military to get promoted: Go to all the schools and go to all the wars ... Lifelong schooling — career-long schooling — is considered an honor…

    Every time I had the opportunity, I was getting trained to do something else, something cool. I was being pushed. Now you’re gonna learn how to fly a helicopter, now you’re gonna learn how to land it on the ship, now you’re gonna go be a college professor, now you’re gonna go fly a fixed-wing aircraft, now you’re gonna go back and get a graduate degree on your own, now you’re gonna go be a commanding officer. You’re always being trained. Every one of those things had schools involved in it.

    The military model is ‘It’s no shame to go to school. It’s a privilege. It’s a pleasure.’”

    He goes on to mention that there's a similar mindset in Indian culture about learning. It wasn't really the point of his email (which was to promote his Teach Yourself Anything course), but what struck me was...what is it about the American education system that actually instills a dread of learning in people? Most people in America really do see it as a chore that is only to be undertaken if they get something better out of it like a job or a promotion, but it doesn't have to be like that. Learning can be fun and exciting, it can be fulfilling to learn and master new concepts and challenges, and make you think about different perspectives and ideas that you weren't even aware of.

    For example, in the last week I took a course on Microsoft Sharepoint as part of a project at work where we're evaluating different platforms. I wouldn't say that I'm a Sharepoint expert now, but I know more than enough to be useful and be able to set up and use Sharepoint sites if I needed to. But what really struck me is how they've made it very simple to add different components to a page to create a complete, functional pages and sites without any coding knowledge. Even if I never touch Sharepoint again, that's something that's going to stick with me in my own future designs and ideas.

    But I understand that I'm different from many people...I was that kid that would excitingly read ahead in the textbook, who would read at lunch and recess, and who grew up in awe of all the stuff that you can learn online for free. Most people are the opposite of that...I knew one guy who told me that he hadn't even read a book since he graduated because he doesn't like to read unless he has to. What does it say about a school system when most of its students leave with a dread of learning? And does it play a role in the glorification of ignorance that we see in society today?
    4 people like this post: Imaginative Kane, Gerrick, taulover, Hydra


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    Wintermoot
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    taulover
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  • He goes on to mention that there's a similar mindset in Indian culture about learning. It wasn't really the point of his email (which was to promote his Teach Yourself Anything course), but what struck me was...what is it about the American education system that actually instills a dread of learning in people? Most people in America really do see it as a chore that is only to be undertaken if they get something better out of it like a job or a promotion, but it doesn't have to be like that. Learning can be fun and exciting, it can be fulfilling to learn and master new concepts and challenges, and make you think about different perspectives and ideas that you weren't even aware of.
    That seems like someone who had a healthy relationship with learning in India. (Though I just checked, he is Desi; can he reliably speak for India's learning culture? Or perhaps he is speaking of diaspora Indian culture?) Given what I've heard about the emphasis on rote learning, singular reliance on examinations, and news of widespread open cheating on said exams, I'm not sure if it's representative of the culture of learning in India? The thing is that in many countries, education is the only real path for social advancement. So people are definitely grateful for the education and see it as a privilege, but not necessarily for the knowledge itself but rather as a means to an end. It's arguably not a drive to learn that is motivating students, but rather social pressure knowing that their academic performance is the key to their family's success, and the shame that would come with failure. (I can't speak for Desi culture but for general Asian diaspora that mindset is also present, but to a varying/lesser extent.)

    But yes, there's definitely much to improve in the education system in America. Interestingly, I think much of the issues with the Indian education system as I highlighted above are also some of the larger issues in American education, albeit likely to a lesser degree. One thing that would help in America specifically would probably be to change our system where public school funding is mostly local and based on property taxes: that way, the people who need a quality education the most aren't also the ones receiving the worst. (Reducing the anti-intellectualism in America would likely require a multifaceted approach beyond just the education system though.)
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    taulover
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    Red Mones
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  • Just going off topic for a bit. Is no one gonna mention yesterday’s great news? :D
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    Wintermoot
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  • @taulover: I don't pretend to know the education system in India, lol, I was just relaying what he stated in his email. I believe he's the son of Indian immigrants, and I know he's visited India a number of times before in the last few years, but I don't know what his experience with it was in childhood or what experience he has with the education system. In fairness, he didn't directly mention the education system, just learning in Indian culture in general...the American education system is just where my mind went from reading it.

    I don't know if it's just a question of funding...we tend to pile more and more money on things in America and not get a better result for it. I think it's something more fundamental...if a school does nothing else, it should instill a love of learning into its pupils, and I think that goes to how things are being taught more than how much money is behind it.

    @Red Mones: Great news?
    1 person likes this post: taulover


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    taulover
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  • I don't know if it's just a question of funding...we tend to pile more and more money on things in America and not get a better result for it. I think it's something more fundamental...if a school does nothing else, it should instill a love of learning into its pupils, and I think that goes to how things are being taught more than how much money is behind it.
    It's not just an issue of funding, but it is a key component of it still, I think. On a whole, the things that get more funding still get better results. Schools without the necessary resources have less capability to inspire learning in children, whether that is by being able to pay teachers, buy the necessary books and curriculum, getting children enough food that they're in a position to care about learning, etc. More money and more equitable distribution of money won't magically solve things, but it would still help.
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    taulover
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    NyghtOwl
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  • So guess who is proposing and hopefully getting engaged this weekend!
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    Ruguo
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  • Congrats Nyght! I hope all goes well for you!
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  • So guess who is proposing and hopefully getting engaged this weekend!
    omg, how exciting! Good luck...I hope everything goes perfect for you. :)


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    Wintermoot
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    Michi
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  • Thank the heavens I can finally consider another chapter of my life closed and a new one beginning to emerge in the new year.

    So, I walked out on my job today, telling them that it was a family emergency (which was technically true since my mom had slipped on the ice pretty bad and had to go in for surgery).  Walking out, I felt such a huge relief, as if this really heavy weight that I'd been carrying for 3 years had just been removed.

    Retail, specifically Walmart retail is just so incredibly toxic that every day was a struggle just to even want to go to work.  Between entitled customers that caused a scene because they didn't get their way, to management that touted "Teamwork makes the dream work" but rarely ever acted like a team and were generally just overall assholes, and even fellow associates that clearly also didn't care as much about working as a team as much as doing whatever it took to get noticed so they'd get promoted.

    Overall, it was a very chaotic and negative atmosphere where we're brainwashed day 1 into believing that unions are evil (not just that Walmart doesn't support them, but going into great detail about how they're ineffective and waste valuable time).  Where you're guilted into staying over hours, or made to feel bad when you call out even if you're legitimately sick.  Where you can come in with an injury, and management will still have you lifting heavy items even if you only have one functional arm.  Where you can turn a customer down for a return without a receipt when the items look damaged, only for management to make you look stupid in front of the customer by allowing the return and giving the customer a gift card for the "inconvenience."  Where associates may not be getting along, so management gets them together and lets them air their grievances right in the back room, rather than getting them separately and privately to figure things out with more discretion...only to be shocked when, uh oh, one of the associates goes into a tirade against one of the other associates! (yes, this actually happened to a coworker friend of mine).  It's a job where no matter what, you're always wrong.  Wanted to set things this way? No, management wants it that way.  Changed it to fit what management said? Well no, higher management wanted it this way.  Changing it to fit that? No, we're going to ignore higher management because it makes more sense to do it this way.  Can't price match something? Well the customer swears they saw it for that price, even though you pull it up and see it at full price.  Prove them wrong to your manager? Who cares? Just take care of the customer!

    And I'm glad to be rid of all of that.  In truth, I never liked retail anyways, because I've always hated the idea of selling people things they don't need.  Sure, I was good at my job...I was good at recommending items to customers and talking them into things, and I knew enough about electronics to really turn someone away from a cheap TV and toward one of the more expensive ones.

    But I still didn't like it.  I just knew that if I did it well, I'd be considered valuable enough to be more or less irreplaceable (which I did end up becoming, because no matter how poorly I did, I only ever got warnings...only one time did I ever get an actual write up in my almost 4 years there, and you need 3 write ups before they terminate you).  It was a job that was close to me and paid decently, so I did what I needed to make sure that I'd continue keeping it.

    And now it's one less stress in my life, a view in the rearview mirror if you will.  Now, I have all of January to relax, all my bills for this month are already paid, and I leave in February to start my new career in another part of the world.

    And this time, it's more a career than a job, and it's one that I've wanted for years.  I'm absolutely elated to be out of the retail world, and I'm ecstatic to start my new career.  All in all, I think 2020 will be an excellent year.
    5 people like this post: taulover, Hydra, Wintermoot, Gerrick, Red Mones
    « Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 03:35:46 AM by Ollie »
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    Michi
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  • @Pengu: That's awesome! I'm glad that things are finally working out for you. :) lol, it's funny, I remember when you were pretty satisfied with working at Wal-Mart. That seemed to change when you were promoted, and continued even when you went back to your old position. But it seems the whole thing is behind you now. :)
    1 person likes this post: taulover


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    Michi
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  • It actually was pretty rocky all around, though for the most part I did still enjoy it.  I still remember when I first applied to be a Customer Service Manager and even passed the leadership test.  This was long before I was actually moved up to be one, mind you...I'd say this was roughly within 6 months to at most a year of me working there.

    I did my interview, seemed to do fine as I kept everything brief and to the point as far as my answers to the questions went.  I was told that for the time being, I'd be made a secondary so that I could learn the ropes as well as have keys so that I could override transactions in electronics...which was fine.  It was always a pain having to call up a CSM every time we had to price match something with a large price difference.  But then one day, the manager from the front end told me that she was going to hold off on making me a full-fledged CSM because the manager of my area was going to give me a much better offer on a position...making me believe he was going to make me a department manager.

    Turns out, it was a lie.

    I had brought it up to him one day, and he hadn't said anything to them about holding off, and that management couldn't just make me a department manager if I didn't apply for it and if I didn't go through the interview process for it.  The front end manager still kept me as a secondary for the week, and then removed my numbers without warning.

    When managers switched around for my area, I attempted the process again.  My current manager kept trying to talk me out of becoming a CSM because of how difficult it would be to move up further as a CSM.  I even named 3 of the people I knew that were now Department managers or higher that were once CSMs, and he considered them "exceptions."  Once again, I kept getting batted around a bit, but was never given the chance to actually move up.  Turns out, not only were both of the managers secretly having an affair with each other (despite the front end manager already being married), but they had already discussed with each other about not letting me move up to the front, because my manager wanted to keep me exactly where I was (because I actually knew my stuff in that area...which is a nice compliment I guess, but I wanted to be more than just an Electronics Associate).

    It wasn't even until those managers were forced to quit once their affair came into the open (because nothing remains secret for long at Walmart, especially when the front end manager was obviously pregnant with his child) that I was finally given the chance by the new front end manager.

    At first, I was actually really stoked about the new promotion.  Plus, I was ecstatic to get out of the drama that electronics was becoming with questionable choices in some of the newer associates for the area.

    Honestly, if it wasn't for them randomly changing managers again out of the blue between front end and produce this time (both being on short vacations when it happened), I wouldn't have even left being a CSM.  Shelly, the front end manager that promoted me, actually took an interest in me and saw potential for me to do well in the company.  She even offered to take me under her wing as a mentor so that I could eventually go through ASM training and continue to go higher in the company.  She was patient with my mistakes, and by far she was monumental in making a high pressure job that much easier for me.

    When they swapped managers, that's when it went downhill for that position for me.  The new manager had little interest in even being out of the office for long unless it was to hop on a register when it was busy and criticize the CSMs when it got busy.  Whereas Shelly made me feel a bit more at ease even when it got busy, Josh made me feel nervous and anxious a lot to where there were a few times I almost had a full fledged panic attack right then and there (which Dominos is the only job in which I've actually had one).

    It also didn't help that being a CSM was where I got my first coaching, which is basically a fancy term for a write-up.  It was an exceptionally busy day, and I was alone on the sales floor trying to line balance.  It was a struggle, because there were just so many people, and I had called for help on the registers...but associates dislike answering the call to come up front.  One of our regional managers decided to show up that day for a walk, and saw me struggling to manage the lines by myself.

    Next thing I knew, I was pulled into the office and coached for not managing the front end well, despite me being the only Customer Service Manager attempting to run an entire front end floor by himself during a busy time.  That broke part of my resolve, because in all my time in electronics, despite how many mistakes I've made in that department...the worst I ever got was a verbal talking to.  But the reasoning for my coaching was that two of the ASMs had talked to me only a day before to see how they could make things easier.  They reasoned that if the regional had decided to talk to them personally and ask if I had gotten a verbal talking to and they said yes, then either they'd have to coach me...or they'd get coached, which in all honesty was BS all around.

    The last straw though as you might remember when I talked about it was one day when once again...I was by myself on the floor and it was busy.  I was already stressing out because the other CSMs were either on a register, or off doing their thing like doing register audits despite it not being the appropriate time to do that.  As I'm struggling to maintain the lines, front end manager Josh walks up and comments right there on the sales floor about how I'm doing bad at my job.

    That's when I was just like "Fuck it" and after he left, I walked off of the sales floor and into the Cash Office to cry.

    And that's basically been my experience since, which is why my promotion could be seen as the downhill moment.  I went back to electronics, busted my ass again...only for my department manager to take interest in another associate because they were both females (though yes, the associate was a hard worker).  Any time I ever wanted to go for a department manager position, it was always promised to someone else.  Every time I ever looked at our little wall of people who excelled that month in Customer Service, it was always manager favorites that didn't actually do much customer service (one month we even had backroom people who almost never went on the sales floor), or CSMs/Support Managers (which their job is customer service anyways, so it seems like a self-pat on the back seeing managers on there).

    I started getting burnt out, and the continued drama that remained when I went back to electronics didn't help.  The only reason I ended up switching out of electronics again was because the department manager I had worked with (and was still friends with) was transferring to a different store since she had gotten a promotion opportunity.  The two supposed choices for Department Manager was a CSM I never really got along with, and someone who already was Department Manager of toys and wanted to switch, and he's been a monumental jerk to one of my best friends.

    So I transferred out into OGP (Online Grocery Pickup).  Apparently that was a smart move, because as soon as I left, it became a domino effect.  One of the associates immediately afterward accepted a promotion to Layaway Department Manager.  My best friend Amanda immediately jumped ship to Layaway and now Garden Center because some of the other associates in that area kept bullying her.

    Remember this part from earlier?  Yeah, it happened to her and had her in tears.
    Quote
    Where associates may not be getting along, so management gets them together and lets them air their grievances right in the back room, rather than getting them separately and privately to figure things out with more discretion...only to be shocked when, uh oh, one of the associates goes into a tirade against one of the other associates! (yes, this actually happened to a coworker friend of mine).

    She's by far not a vengeful or mean-spirited person...she just has anxiety and trouble focusing sometimes which can impact her work performance, and one of the other female associates who made it seem like she was the only worker in that area was the one that went into a tirade against her with both the second associate and the manager looking at her in surprise while she dug into Amanda verbally.

    But that's the kind of drama that exists, because management allows it.  The only reason my outlook has changed so much since my promotion is because I've both experienced it and witnessed it.  I've gotten to see how even as a Customer Service Manager, you still have "upper" management fighting against you and consistently making you look stupid.  If anything, I have more respect for CSMs now because I know what they have to hear and deal with.

    Going from that, however, to even more drama from the area I had just left, and then going to a place that continued that drama and added a timer just made it worse.  I kept feeling as if I was personally getting targeted in OGP, because any mistake I made seemed to get more magnified compared to when others did it.

    Standing for a moment to talk? I got pulled into the office and talked to about that.  Guess what other associates in that area including managers tended to do constantly?

    Pulled out my phone for the first time ever to respond to my school's email?  I got pulled into the office and talked to about that (because another associate apparently "saw it and then turned to me and gave me a look like "seriously?" (that was quoted from what I was told by my manager).  You know what though? There's another associate that pulls out his phone every 5 minutes to take stupid Snapchat pictures and text his girlfriend, and management (even co-management) will joke with him about it.

    Accidentally taking the OGP cell phone home? I got pulled into the office and talked to about that.  I'm by far not the first or only associate to do that, as even my department manager accidentally went home with it.  Same goes for the keycards that let us go through the door without sounding off the alarm (which I've never taken home accidentally, but others have including the DMs).

    The worst part? It was all petty BS that I'm sure the manager of the area made up on occasion to give more credence to pulling me into the office (such as him saying "I've had 4 associates complain about you" and then in the next breaths saying "One of those associates complains about everyone" and then also saying that their "hands are tied" in dealing with that associate when he does stuff since the regional manager of that area for some reason has that associate's number and has him keep the RM updated on the store).

    So yeah.  It was fine going in, and arguably the stuff before promotion was bad...but not horribly bad to where I got burnt out.

    If anything though, I think our previous Store Manager leaving was what triggered.  My promotion just happened to coincide with the time period.

    Sergey, the previous Store Manager, was absolutely excellent.  He was always on the sales floor making sure everything was in tip top shape.  You could find him in the back helping with freight, hopping on a register to help with lines, talking to customers around the store...and just all around being a very hands-on leader.  Because of him, the store was #1 quite constantly in the region for everything...our sales were phenomenal, customer satisfaction was one of the highest constantly, associates were generally more satisfied with how things were outside of complaints toward specific managers (which some are still there), and overall the store was in great shape.

    The minute he left and the new Store Manager Shane took over, things took a complete 180.  He tends to spend almost the entire day held up in his office or micromanaging the sales floor rather than actually helping out.  Assistant Managers were allowed to basically do what they wanted and run the show how they chose, because he would be okay with virtually any decision/choice they made.  Customer Service Satisfaction started to and continues to tank because of this, because the store has both managers who don't really care about keeping customers, and a store manager that has proven to not have the same tact in talking to them as the previous one did.  Sales have been generally lower as well, as theft has been pretty high, and overall the store that was once #1 constantly in the region is now in one of the lowest places because of the complete alteration in how the leadership is.

    So all around, it's been bad.  Starting up, sure...I was alright with it.  The store wasn't bad, most issues were basically nitpicks outside of the consistently broken promises regarding promotion, but management was for the most part decent enough to where I was okay with it.

    But yes, the moment I got promoted was definitely a catalyst for hating it, because of all of the circumstances surrounding.  Had a much more competent Store Manager filled Sergey's spot, and had some of the really problematic mangers been fired and replaced (some of which are still there)...it would have been more tolerable.

    And I'll even admit, I didn't feel appreciated there in the later years after my promotion.

    There's apparently this thing that managers are taught that if you consistently tell someone that you appreciate them, it actually means something.

    It doesn't.  Words are words, and actions speak volumes compared to words.  The only times I ever really felt like I was actually appreciated were the following:

    *Some of my coworkers and even DMs in Electronics being genuinely grateful when I helped and answer questions they didn't know the answer to.  I even got the reputation by even store manager Sergey himself for being "The guy to talk to about Electronics."  Whenever someone had a question about anything electronics, even management led them to me directly.  Hell, even after I left Electronics both times, I've had customers that stopped coming in because I wasn't there, or more often approach me directly with questions compared to the actual Electronics associates close by.

    *When I made the Customer Service Appreciation wall in my 2nd month in Electronics.  A customer had walked up to Sergey personally and praised my customer service skills, and Sergey instantly got my picture and put me on that wall for that month.  Seeing that picture made me feel important, like I actually did something well.  After that? Nope.  I've had multiple customers go up to management directly to compliment me at different points in time (and have even been given the "good job" by management for it), but that was the one and only time I was ever on the wall.

    *When, during my first few months there, one of the former assistant managers over apparel asked me personally what I wanted for the future and wanted out of Walmart, and gave both a recommendation to me and Gwen (the front end manager at the time) for me to become a CSM because she thought my customer service skills were excellent (leading into the first paragraph of this post).

    *When Shelly (the front end manager at the time of this) took an absolute interest in me when I wanted to be a CSM, sat me down in the office within my first week as a full-fledged CSM and asked about what I wanted from the company...and in that same conversation offered to be my mentor and put me through a program so that I could become an ASM within a year because she saw potential for me.

    And those are the things that really stuck for me.  When a manager just says "I appreciate you/what you do." That means nothing to me.  It's a company line to make me compliant, because it's something intended to give the illusion of value.  When you throw out a compliment to get me to do something for you, it makes me roll my eyes compared to when you actually show that you appreciate what I do.  Don't just tell me that you like what I do...show me.  Don't snub me when I want to move up or try to keep me down because you want to keep me where I'm at.  Don't put me at this higher standard and give me 50+ jobs within my department (as a regular associate) with no tangible reward just because I actually do my job...and then come down on me harder than you would another associate just because I didn't meet that unrealistic standard you put on me.

    I actually had a breakdown one time and talked to one of the former co-managers about how I felt like I was being given such a heavy work load compared to others because management just continually thinks I can handle it all.  I talked about how I felt like if I didn't meet that standard, like I was on the same level as someone who actually didn't do their job.  He sympathized with me and told me that it was an unfortunately common thing that managers do.

    I hated how others did less than me and got praised for it.  It annoyed me when I got passed up for positions I wanted because management had their favorites.  For a company that is supposed to be against the idea of favoritism in any form, they do a terrible job at it.

    Even near the end it still ticked me off seeing coworkers get special treatment.  The guy I mentioned that had the Regional Manager's number?  Yeah, there was absolutely no reason for that outside of him being a schmoozer.  But because he's "buddy buddy" with the regional manager of OGP (Online Grocery Pickup), he gets treated specially by management.  On his phone constantly? He'll just get continual slaps on the wrist whereas at this point, he would have gone through multiple coachings (and possible termination) if he were just a run-of-the-mill associate.  Hell, like I said...on occasion even management and co-managers will go over and joke with him when he's on his phone.  If we're caught doing nothing and then we're called to the other parts of the store to help? He's completely untouchable, even according to co-management.

    It's basically one huge ethics dilemma.

    But it is what it is, and I'm glad to be rid of it.

    Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
    4 people like this post: Red Mones, taulover, Gerrick, Hydra
    « Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 08:15:33 AM by Ollie »
    My Wintreath Resumé
    Michi
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    Red Mones
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  • Holy shit, you couldn't pay me enough to deal with that bullshit. I hope things get better for you. And fuck the people that treat retail workers like crap.
    4 people like this post: Michi, taulover, Hydra, Imaginative Kane
    Red Mones
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