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I’m very new here, so I may have some fundamental misunderstandings of how the government works. Regardless, I’d like to give another opinion on how things could work after hearing about the current problems.

To me, the only purpose of the Overhusen is to act as a veto power to prevent bad laws from being passed in the Underhusen or invaders taking power in the Underhusen and fucking everything up. This means that the Overhusen is only as active as the Underhusen, which as we know has been having the problem of not being active in the sense of not knowing what to do in its role of legislators. My impression (in the past couple days I've looked around here) is that the Storting recently has been doing pretty much nothing positive and has only been bringing stress and petty politics.

I have two ideas that draw from several others’ ideas to try to alleviate this burden:

IDEA 1 is to merge the Overhusen and Underhusen and give the veto power to the Monarch/Riksråd. The newly-merged Storting could then be organized with something like 5 members from the Overhusen (or those appointed by the Monarch) and 4 from the Underhusen (or those elected). This would allow more trusted members (the appointed) to prevent an overthrowing of power or passing of bad legislation before it even has a chance to be vetoed. The appointed would also be more experienced, which would mean they could help to propose or improve legislation (or just promote activity in general) where before they could not.

The inclusion of elected people into the Storting keeps the aspect of the Underhusen that even normal citizens can have the chance to rise in social status and have a direct impact on legislation. Plus, the Riksråd are already appointed, so it makes sense to me that they could play the role of the current Overhusen. Then again, they might be a lot busier with their current positions than I'm imagining.

IDEA 2 (which is a bit more complicated) is to completely disband the Underhusen, create a sort of social ranking system where any citizen can propose legislation to a newly-created Riksråd position (the Jarl of Appointing Temporary Law-Makers or something. I suck at naming.)  or the Overhusen, then if it’s decided it’s not ridiculously stupid or harmful, somebody (this new position or the Overhusen) randomly selects a certain number of people (excluding the citizen who proposed the legislation) from each rank to discuss and amend the legislation and eventually vote on it. The Overhusen retains the power to veto the proposed legislation.

This system essentially removes the stress of the responsibility and politics of the Underhusen to feel like they need to be doing something by just removing it, gives every citizen the ability to take part in legislation, prevents too many new people from messing things up, and gives the ability to advance in social status with ranks (give them interesting, lore-friendly names). Ranks could be determined by a point system (like Wintermoot suggested) where having so many posts/Karma/active time/donations/passed legislation places you in a certain social class, or you could be given extra points for doing something outstanding (maybe awards for future events?). The points could very slowly depreciate to the minimum of your current rank (so you have to be active to go up), and the only way to be demoted would be by the Overhusen/Monarch/whomever. The ranks will really be for this legislation-voting thing, but will also encourage people to be more active and, again, advance in social status.

The people selected for discussion/voting of legislation would have to say if they accept as we wouldn’t want an absent person to be given a spot. This temporary group would then have to talk amongst themselves (perhaps in a private forum that becomes public after the fact) and come to a conclusion on the legislation that will either be dropped or passed on to the Overhusen. This actually -- now that I think about it -- sounds like a mix of jury duty and the ancient Athenian boule (aka the council of citizens, where normal citizens drawn by lot hold political positions). This could, however, end up becoming really inefficient and draw the law-making process out, or it could encourage people to get more involved.

Then again I could have this all wrong.

I do actually find the second option intriguing. There are a few flaws in your plans, which no doubt result from being so new, but a few things here are definitely worth looking into. I especially liked the idea of a dedicated Riksråd member having to deal with law, and with my current idea for guilds, it would provide a few interesting opportunities that I can't get into right now.

Also, the Riksråd are pretty much the busiest here, apart from the Monarch.

I think you should revisit these ideas and tweak them when you've gained a bit more experience. Good start.

I know I can't be one to talk here, especially because I have no legislative experience, but I don't understand how you can say that Gerrick's plan is flawed without specifically identifying those flaws so that they can be sorted out. I personally find it a good thing that Gerrick has a fresh outside perspective, because he is on the outside looking into the legislature and identifying its potential problems instead of trying to deal with it from within, where it might be more difficult because Storting members might be trying to preserve their own interests.

I do have a question regarding the ranking system in the second suggestion, however: if the ranking system only is to be used for the legislature, wouldn't it be better to just skip the ranks altogether and have the random citizens be selected by account age and essentially redrawing if a citizen doesn't meet the needed age group? That way one wouldn't have to worry about citizens avoiding reaching a certain rank or qualification similarly to how people try to get out of jury duty.

I do have a question regarding the ranking system in the second suggestion, however: if the ranking system only is to be used for the legislature, wouldn't it be better to just skip the ranks altogether and have the random citizens be selected by account age and essentially redrawing if a citizen doesn't meet the needed age group? That way one wouldn't have to worry about citizens avoiding reaching a certain rank or qualification similarly to how people try to get out of jury duty.

What exactly would these randomly drawn citizens do?

I know I can't be one to talk here, especially because I have no legislative experience, but I don't understand how you can say that Gerrick's plan is flawed without specifically identifying those flaws so that they can be sorted out. I personally find it a good thing that Gerrick has a fresh outside perspective, because he is on the outside looking into the legislature and identifying its potential problems instead of trying to deal with it from within, where it might be more difficult because Storting members might be trying to preserve their own interests.

It's poor form to analyse the shit out of a completely new member's ideas. I don't want to discourage him, especially since many of these flaws are due to not having enough experience with the region, thus not being aware of certain realities.

Okay I see what you mean. My apologies, then, to the both of you. I had merely wanted to avoid special or especially harsh treatment simply because he's new. Perhaps this can be a teaching moment to inform of what those realities would be?

No matter. I'll stop trying to control the thread any longer. Back to you, @Gerrick?

I know I can't be one to talk here, especially because I have no legislative experience, but I don't understand how you can say that Gerrick's plan is flawed without specifically identifying those flaws so that they can be sorted out. I personally find it a good thing that Gerrick has a fresh outside perspective, because he is on the outside looking into the legislature and identifying its potential problems instead of trying to deal with it from within, where it might be more difficult because Storting members might be trying to preserve their own interests.

It's poor form to analyse the shit out of a completely new member's ideas. I don't want to discourage him, especially since many of these flaws are due to not having enough experience with the region, thus not being aware of certain realities.

I appreciate that you're being positive, and I didn't at all feel like I was being personally criticized, but then again as Barnes said, since I don't really know how things work, I personally don't know how or what parts to fix. I did get that in Idea 1, the Riksråd should not be given the responsibilities of the Overhusen since they're so busy. I'm not sure if the Monarch should/would want to have the Overhusen's veto power, since he said he does not really want to affect legislation and it could just make people angry at him (since he's just one man) if he vetos everybody's shit.

I do have a question regarding the ranking system in the second suggestion, however: if the ranking system only is to be used for the legislature, wouldn't it be better to just skip the ranks altogether and have the random citizens be selected by account age and essentially redrawing if a citizen doesn't meet the needed age group? That way one wouldn't have to worry about citizens avoiding reaching a certain rank or qualification similarly to how people try to get out of jury duty.

Yeah, I guess I didn't think about that, which would be a lot simpler. The rank thing could be used for other things (I don't know since I'm so new), but it'd also just be something to promote activity in the region and something interesting for each person to work towards if they want. Like there's really no point to prestige in Call of Duty or go legendary in Skyrim, but people do it because it gives them something to work towards.

I do have a question regarding the ranking system in the second suggestion, however: if the ranking system only is to be used for the legislature, wouldn't it be better to just skip the ranks altogether and have the random citizens be selected by account age and essentially redrawing if a citizen doesn't meet the needed age group? That way one wouldn't have to worry about citizens avoiding reaching a certain rank or qualification similarly to how people try to get out of jury duty.

What exactly would these randomly drawn citizens do?

They perform the duties of the Underhusen. Instead of a few elected people holding office for a couple months and coming up with/voting on legislation, the randomly drawn citizens vote on a piece of legislation already presented by someone else (The group changes for each new proposal.). This makes it a little more organized than if everybody took part in the discussion/voting like in an open assembly, and since they'd be drawn from ranks it also keeps so many new people from radically changing things. Removing the 2 months of responsibilities of the Underhusen from just a few people also removes their stress, as I said in the original post.

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This forum is basically just me putting out my ideas for everybody to see and do with what they will. You may take them as is (after some altering), take just the parts you like and add them to your own or others' ideas (as Laurentus suggested he might do with the idea of a new Riksråd position), or just ignore them. I'm just giving a different perspective to things, and I appreciate the feedback from everybody so far. Discussion is good for everybody

Thanks for the proposal...for someone that's new, I find your insights to be knowledgeable and insightful. You've obviously done your research.

I think idea 1 is pretty solid, but if you move the proposal to a draft I advise that you either have the Monarch appoint some members to the new legislature or give direct veto power, but not both. The purpose of appointing members to the Overhusen was to offset the fact that there is no direct veto, so having both might be a bit unbalanced.

I have some reservations with idea 2...my philosophy when it comes to a lot of things is the simpler the better, and as you say it's a bit more complicated. There's also no way to be sure how knowledgeable or interested in regional law someone picked at random would be, even if they're active...you could get someone that's into RP and games and doesn't know anything about the law, and then they're picked to determine it. At the same time, what if someone who is interested never gets picked because it's random?

I'm not sure if the Monarch should/would want to have the Overhusen's veto power, since he said he does not really want to affect legislation and it could just make people angry at him (since he's just one man) if he vetos everybody's shit.

I don't have any issue making unpopular decisions actually...I've learned with experience that it's just an occasional part of leadership. If I'm opposed to something that comes up, I try to explain my reasoning and to be as open to compromise as possible without violating what I feel to be regional principles, but sometimes...

I’m very new here, so I may have some fundamental misunderstandings of how the government works. Regardless, I’d like to give another opinion on how things could work after hearing about the current problems.

To me, the only purpose of the Overhusen is to act as a veto power to prevent bad laws from being passed in the Underhusen or invaders taking power in the Underhusen and fucking everything up. This means that the Overhusen is only as active as the Underhusen, which as we know has been having the problem of not being active in the sense of not knowing what to do in its role of legislators. My impression (in the past couple days I've looked around here) is that the Storting recently has been doing pretty much nothing positive and has only been bringing stress and petty politics.

I have two ideas that draw from several others’ ideas to try to alleviate this burden:

IDEA 1 is to merge the Overhusen and Underhusen and give the veto power to the Monarch/Riksråd. The newly-merged Storting could then be organized with something like 5 members from the Overhusen (or those appointed by the Monarch) and 4 from the Underhusen (or those elected). This would allow more trusted members (the appointed) to prevent an overthrowing of power or passing of bad legislation before it even has a chance to be vetoed. The appointed would also be more experienced, which would mean they could help to propose or improve legislation (or just promote activity in general) where before they could not.

The inclusion of elected people into the Storting keeps the aspect of the Underhusen that even normal citizens can have the chance to rise in social status and have a direct impact on legislation. Plus, the Riksråd are already appointed, so it makes sense to me that they could play the role of the current Overhusen. Then again, they might be a lot busier with their current positions than I'm imagining.

IDEA 2 (which is a bit more complicated) is to completely disband the Underhusen, create a sort of social ranking system where any citizen can propose legislation to a newly-created Riksråd position (the Jarl of Appointing Temporary Law-Makers or something. I suck at naming.)  or the Overhusen, then if it’s decided it’s not ridiculously stupid or harmful, somebody (this new position or the Overhusen) randomly selects a certain number of people (excluding the citizen who proposed the legislation) from each rank to discuss and amend the legislation and eventually vote on it. The Overhusen retains the power to veto the proposed legislation.

This system essentially removes the stress of the responsibility and politics of the Underhusen to feel like they need to be doing something by just removing it, gives every citizen the ability to take part in legislation, prevents too many new people from messing things up, and gives the ability to advance in social status with ranks (give them interesting, lore-friendly names). Ranks could be determined by a point system (like Wintermoot suggested) where having so many posts/Karma/active time/donations/passed legislation places you in a certain social class, or you could be given extra points for doing something outstanding (maybe awards for future events?). The points could very slowly depreciate to the minimum of your current rank (so you have to be active to go up), and the only way to be demoted would be by the Overhusen/Monarch/whomever. The ranks will really be for this legislation-voting thing, but will also encourage people to be more active and, again, advance in social status.

The people selected for discussion/voting of legislation would have to say if they accept as we wouldn’t want an absent person to be given a spot. This temporary group would then have to talk amongst themselves (perhaps in a private forum that becomes public after the fact) and come to a conclusion on the legislation that will either be dropped or passed on to the Overhusen. This actually -- now that I think about it -- sounds like a mix of jury duty and the ancient Athenian boule (aka the council of citizens, where normal citizens drawn by lot hold political positions). This could, however, end up becoming really inefficient and draw the law-making process out, or it could encourage people to get more involved.

Then again I could have this all wrong.

I'll go into more detail now, since you requested it. I tend to go easier on newer members for the first few days.

1. I don't think suggestion 1 would really solve the activity issue, because the Overhusen can already propose legislation in the Citizen's Platform, and debate it, but this is not happening. It therefore seems like a structural change that wouldn't have any real impact. Change for change's sake, if you will. I suppose the argument could be made that having the OH explicitly appointed to come up with legislation would change this, but I have my doubts. I'd be willing to reconsider that stance if @Joshua Bluteisen, @Colberius X, and @Wuufu, my Peers, made it known that they actually see other opportunities for legislation that need to be implemented, and are willing to come up with said legislation. I somewhat jokingly suggested that the UH and OH switch places for one term, once.

My other objection with the first idea is that I don't think it would remove the overly political nature of our legislature.

2. My only real objection to option 2 is, as WM pointed out, the jury-type of setup. I even liked the ranks, as that fits in with my meritocratic world view, but I understand that people might not look at that the same way I do.

Thanks for the proposal...for someone that's new, I find your insights to be knowledgeable and insightful. You've obviously done your research.

Thank you

I think idea 1 is pretty solid, but if you move the proposal to a draft I advise that you either have the Monarch appoint some members to the new legislature or give direct veto power, but not both. The purpose of appointing members to the Overhusen was to offset the fact that there is no direct veto, so having both might be a bit unbalanced.

Yeah this is what I was talking about with giving the veto power to the Riksråd or the Monarch, but the former is too busy, and it'd have to be decided if you, the Monarch, (and your successors) should be entrusted with it (if you'd even want it).

I have some reservations with idea 2...my philosophy when it comes to a lot of things is the simpler the better, and as you say it's a bit more complicated. There's also no way to be sure how knowledgeable or interested in regional law someone picked at random would be, even if they're active...you could get someone that's into RP and games and doesn't know anything about the law, and then they're picked to determine it. At the same time, what if someone who is interested never gets picked because it's random?

Yeah, that makes sense. It's definitely a system that'd need to be corrected quite a bit. Perhaps everybody who wants to take part when new legislation comes around has to apply, then the random selection draws from this list. That'd keep out people who don't know/aren't interested and narrows the field for people who usually are interested to make them more likely to be selected. Then again if only the same people are ever interested, then it'd just become the Underhusen again, and I have no idea whether or not that'd happen since I'm new.

I'll go into more detail now, since you requested it. I tend to go easier on newer members for the first few days.

Haha, thanks, but I actually appreciate constructive criticism

I suppose the argument could be made that having the OH explicitly appointed to come up with legislation would change this, but I have my doubts.

That might just make them look for problems where there are none or cause stress if they don't find anything.

1. I don't think suggestion 1 would really solve the activity issue, because the Overhusen can already propose legislation in the Citizen's Platform, and debate it, but this is not happening.

Ah, I did not they could do that. That kind of changes everything.

My other objection with the first idea is that I don't think it would remove the overly political nature of our legislature.

That's true, it'd just bring the Overhusen into the politics of the Underhusen.

I somewhat jokingly suggested that the UH and OH switch places for one term, once.

That would definitely be interesting 

2. My only real objection to option 2 is, as WM pointed out, the jury-type of setup. I even liked the ranks, as that fits in with my meritocratic world view, but I understand that people might not look at that the same way I do.

Yeah, it kind of relies on the hopes that people won't take it too seriously.

I think idea 1 is pretty solid, but if you move the proposal to a draft I advise that you either have the Monarch appoint some members to the new legislature or give direct veto power, but not both. The purpose of appointing members to the Overhusen was to offset the fact that there is no direct veto, so having both might be a bit unbalanced.

I suppose then, Wintermoot, that it would be best to appoint a Riksråd position directly to act as a Speaker of the Storting (Jarl of Legislature, perhaps?)? That way the Speaker can essentially have indirect veto power through tiebreak. The fact there are a mix of appointed members and elected members also allows the Stortig to collectively assemble the concerns of the Monarchy/Riksråd to create legislative necessities while still having the democracy of the elected members. As well, the roughly-even number of elected and appointed members forces the Storting to consider both sides (Monarchy vs. people should it ever come to that) in order to pass any legislation.

Since I've been mentioned I guess I should join in here.

Firstly, to Gerrick. I actually like Idea 1. This allows for the existing election system while giving the Monarch the power to appoint people who are experienced and able to sort through legislation but haven't been elected. It's a nice mix.

However I prefer Idea 2. What we could change with that is that we have two sets of citizens; those who are interested in law and those who are not. Citizens can choose to bounce between these two states at will. We could even have a set of ranks that is applied to citizens in the interested group; or perhaps these ranks give bonuses outside of the legislature as well, tied into the system Wintermoot suggested.

Then those who are chosen randomly get picked from those who have said they are interested. Those who aren't picked can discuss the law in the citizens gallery as always, so those who are can take their thoughts into account when voting.

Secondly, to Laurentus and on the problem of the lack of legislative ideas. My view of my position in the Overhusen was always as a veto role of the legislation passed in the Underhusen. As such, I've more or less left the Underhusen to their own devices in concocting law, and replied to law as I saw it appear.

By the time I was considering the possibility of going over Wintreath's law library so that I could see what I myself could come up with, there were already calls to disband the Underhusen. So I sat back to watch what would happen.

Now, I may have a few more legal ideas up my sleeve, but what will that work us to? Another session or two? Then what? We risk running out of law again.

That's why I prefer Idea 2. It allows for us to still legislate, but instead of seeing it as an activity necessity, we see it as an optional part of the region's goals as and when it is needed. Wintreath is very unique in being a region focused on making the place as less political as possible, and I see this a move in that direction.

Then we are in agreement, Wuufu.

I suppose then, Wintermoot, that it would be best to appoint a Riksråd position directly to act as a Speaker of the Storting (Jarl of Legislature, perhaps?)? That way the Speaker can essentially have indirect veto power through tiebreak. The fact there are a mix of appointed members and elected members also allows the Stortig to collectively assemble the concerns of the Monarchy/Riksråd to create legislative necessities while still having the democracy of the elected members. As well, the roughly-even number of elected and appointed members forces the Storting to consider both sides (Monarchy vs. people should it ever come to that) in order to pass any legislation.

Idea 1. This allows for the existing election system while giving the Monarch the power to appoint people who are experienced and able to sort through legislation but haven't been elected. It's a nice mix.

The two of these were my overall intent for Idea 1. Barnes' idea for a Jarl to act as an overseer and tie-breaker could be reason enough to make both the appointed and elected members to be exactly even in number. This position would need to be filled with a very trusted person, however, as they would have the power to personally decide whether or not legislation passes if it is tied.

However I prefer Idea 2. What we could change with that is that we have two sets of citizens; those who are interested in law and those who are not. Citizens can choose to bounce between these two states at will. We could even have a set of ranks that is applied to citizens in the interested group; or perhaps these ranks give bonuses outside of the legislature as well, tied into the system Wintermoot suggested.

Then those who are chosen randomly get picked from those who have said they are interested. Those who aren't picked can discuss the law in the citizens gallery as always, so those who are can take their thoughts into account when voting.

That would indeed be a simpler solution to the idea's problem. And the ranking system could definitely give bonuses outside of the legislature -- I just personally don't really know what.

Secondly, to Laurentus and on the problem of the lack of legislative ideas. My view of my position in the Overhusen was always as a veto role of the legislation passed in the Underhusen. As such, I've more or less left the Underhusen to their own devices in concocting law, and replied to law as I saw it appear.

This was my impression on the Overhusen when writing my proposals. I guess not everybody sees it the same way, though.

Idea 2. It allows for us to still legislate, but instead of seeing it as an activity necessity, we see it as an optional part of the region's goals as and when it is needed. Wintreath is very unique in being a region focused on making the place as less political as possible, and I see this a move in that direction.

This was another intent of Idea 2: to only use the legislature when necessary (because to me that doesn't seem to be quite too often). The people who would work on legislation would only be called on when needed, so they don't have a purely ceremonial position if they don't end up doing anything or become too political as each member only has power for the law they are called to work on.