View Topic

I'm sure I don't have to explain the situation, but Greece has voted overwhelmingly against the European bailout deal (around 62% no atm). What do you think this will mean for Greece, Europe, and the euro? Also, do you have any reflections of the events that led to things coming to this?

"I'm utterly clueless."

-America

They'll be kicked out of the Eurozone, I think. 

How can they be kicked out of the eurozone? As I understand there are no protocols to remove a nation from it. Joining the eurozone was supposed to be permanent and irrevocable.

The Grexit might occur...

Germany and the rest of the economic powers in Europe could kick them out of the Eurozone, but not the EU, as I understand it. There isn't any protocol for it though, as the Euro is a relatively new currency.

Germany and the rest of the economic powers in Europe could kick them out of the Eurozone, but not the EU, as I understand it. There isn't any protocol for it though, as the Euro is a relatively new currency.

Actually from what I can tell there is no protocal within the Eurozone for actually leaving or being kicked out. As from what I could tell from here

How can they be kicked out of the eurozone? As I understand there are no protocols to remove a nation from it. Joining the eurozone was supposed to be permanent and irrevocable.

There were hardly any protocols for anything serious before 07/08, which is part of the reason the whole Greek crisis started. Actually, by contrast, there was a ban on maintaining a large fund to help out nations when they needed it before Greece declared it was in a bad state... and that ban was unofficially overruled by things like the EFSF and other tools devised to transfer funds to Greece.

So Greece could leave. If it happens it's gonna be a poopstorm as it will leave at the same time as a national default at the same time as a new currency at the same time as money-printing (possible hyper-inflation) at the same time as loss of major creditors.

I don't know much about this sort of thing, only what I read across several news sources over time so I could be wrong. I'd be glad to have anything I've got wrong pointed out.

I remember reading that Greece was even told it would need to destroy its presses for printing drachmas when it joined the euro, because membership was supposed to be permanent, and there's no law or mechanism for other nations to kick it from the euro, although I suppose it could decide to print its own currency on its own.

Assuming it does though, most economists seem to agree that taking the latest bailout offer would have been worse than leaving the euro in the long-term. Five years of austerity haven't helped Greece's debt burden one bit and has destroyed their economy in the process...who can blame them for not wanting more of the same? And why is it that that instead of accepting that Greece needs debt forgiveness to survive, European nations instead wanted to classify the IMF report that said as much? It seems that they care about something other than the well-being of one of its fellow member-states.

So, Greece surrendered, almost literally. The new agreement as I understand it requires that it pass massive austority measures within the next three days, transfer sovereignty over reform decisions directly to the 'trioka' of creditors, and cede €50 billion worth of state assets to an outside fund to sell off to repay its debts, which could include national monuments or islands. Some are comparing the agreement to the Treaty of Versailles which humiliated Germany and later contributed to the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party. All for money that the Greek people will never see...just like the previous bailouts most of the money will go to the creditors, meaning that Germany and the Eurozone are essentially paying themselves.

All on a continent which is somehow constantly upheld as being 'better' than America when it comes to human rights and the resisting the temptations of greed. Perhaps it's time that Europe looked in the mirror again.

Even though the Greek people voted against austerity, "Creditors" are able to impose their will on them. This is the voice of the minority getting lost in the sound of profits.

Though in fairness one problem is with the Greek people, in voting to oppose austerity yet wishing to remain in the eurozone. It never seems to have occurred to most of them that the two things may be exclusive, and in wishing to remain in the euro tied their government's hands. I think the Greek government did an outstanding job in attempting to protect Greece, but ultimately their hands were tied by that desire, and it seems likely there will be regime change to the creditor's liking as a result.

“As Schäuble supposedly said, elections cannot be allowed to change anything.” http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/yanis-varoufakis-speaks-out-for-first-time-since-resigning-as-greek-finance-minister/

From what Mr Varoufakis says, it seems that Germany is leading the Eurozone and that this is exactly where they want Greece to go. Austerity trumps democracy again.

It certainly should give pause to nations like Poland that are obligated by treaty to eventually join the Eurozone.

Fun fact: Sweden is technically obliged to join the Eurozone, but we keep out of the ERM II, which we say is optional, while it really isn't. Therefore we won't join the ERM II

Ah international politics, always a big mess of different countries interpreting treaties and legal texts differently.