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I said in that sentence that I'm against those and treaties... I said I don't like that. Why are you pointing that out?

I have no illusions that we'll be able to support the legitimate government on our own. What I'm proposing is an alliance with all the other GCRs, and a few select defender/imperialist organisations. Because really, it's a piss-poor precedent to set when the other GCRs just allow something like this to happen, thus proving that no GCR can take care of its people.

Will be effective how? All it does is look pretty and restrict our own citizens! And we aren't traditionally ones who derive any sort of pleasure from unnecessarily restricting ourselves!

...And?

Look, I'm against the idea of most things that would restrict our citizens as well, but I also will argue for the things I feel will benefit Wintreath the best.  And if you're willingly choosing to join a group's forum that staged a coup against an ally, then that's not beneficial to Wintreath.  What if they decided to go for us next?  Would you still be part of that messageboard?  In the end it doesn't matter if you joined under the idea that you wouldn't support either military.  If they decided to turn their sites on Wintreath, then you'll be forced to choose a side and lose your status in the other.  So setting it up early in the case of either supporting them or supporting our allies isn't unhead of.

If we had a much larger and much more active military, then I wouldn't be considering following this since I do agree that providing military support is a better alternative than putting a restriction on citizens.  However, considering that's not the case, this really is the better alternative rather than just sitting back and talking about how we don't support the coup.

If someone wants to up and join the NPO, that's fine, and that's on them.  But people on here are pretty well informed of what all is going on...and I highly doubt that anyone on here lacks the intelligence to find other methods to talk to their friends on there without having to resort to seeking citizenship on the coup's messageboard.  Joining that messageboard and seeking citizenship with a group that staged a coup of our allies is essentially saying that you agree with their decisions and that you support the coup, and Wintreath should be able to counter that by revoking citizenship if you choose to go that path.

Really, if anyone on here outside of our new to NS members joins the NPO, I'm at least mostly sure that they know exactly what they're getting into when they're joining it, and I'm also at least pretty sure that they're not just joining it because their friends are on it.

I have no illusions that we'll be able to support the legitimate government on our own. What I'm proposing is an alliance with all the other GCRs, and a few select defender/imperialist organisations. Because really, it's a piss-poor precedent to set when the other GCRs just allow something like this to happen, thus proving that no GCR can take care of its people.

You did read everything that Mooty posted related to this, right?  This wasn't something that Lazarus simply "allowed" to happen in a day.  This is something that has been well planned and played out for quite some time.  This is something that could happen in any GCR or UCR, since all it takes is someone like Milo or Frak to get their hands into it.

Hell, unless they have a system like 10KI's (which is 10 times more restrictive than anything Mooty is even proposing), then anyone is open to being the victim of a coup.

Will be effective how? All it does is look pretty and restrict our own citizens! And we aren't traditionally ones who derive any sort of pleasure from unnecessarily restricting ourselves!

...And?

Look, I'm against the idea of most things that would restrict our citizens as well, but I also will argue for the things I feel will benefit Wintreath the best.  And if you're willingly choosing to join a group's forum that staged a coup against an ally, then that's not beneficial to Wintreath.  What if they decided to go for us next?  Would you still be part of that messageboard?  In the end it doesn't matter if you joined under the idea that you wouldn't support either military.  If they decided to turn their sites on Wintreath, then you'll be forced to choose a side and lose your status in the other.  So setting it up early in the case of either supporting them or supporting our allies isn't unhead of.

If we had a much larger and much more active military, then I wouldn't be considering following this since I do agree that providing military support is a better alternative than putting a restriction on citizens.  However, considering that's not the case, this really is the better alternative rather than just sitting back and talking about how we don't support the coup.

If someone wants to up and join the NPO, that's fine, and that's on them.  But people on here are pretty well informed of what all is going on...and I highly doubt that anyone on here lacks the intelligence to find other methods to talk to their friends on there without having to resort to seeking citizenship on the coup's messageboard.  Joining that messageboard and seeking citizenship with a group that staged a coup of our allies is essentially saying that you agree with their decisions and that you support the coup, and Wintreath should be able to counter that by revoking citizenship if you choose to go that path.

Really, if anyone on here outside of our new to NS members joins the NPO, I'm at least mostly sure that they know exactly what they're getting into when they're joining it, and I'm also at least pretty sure that they're not just joining it because their friends are on it.

I have no illusions that we'll be able to support the legitimate government on our own. What I'm proposing is an alliance with all the other GCRs, and a few select defender/imperialist organisations. Because really, it's a piss-poor precedent to set when the other GCRs just allow something like this to happen, thus proving that no GCR can take care of its people.

You did read everything that Mooty posted related to this, right?  This wasn't something that Lazarus simply "allowed" to happen in a day.  This is something that has been well planned and played out for quite some time.  This is something that could happen in any GCR or UCR, since all it takes is someone like Milo or Frak to get their hands into it.

Hell, unless they have a system like 10KI's (which is 10 times more restrictive than anything Mooty is even proposing), then anyone is open to being the victim of a coup.

1) There is absolutely no sense to the statement that joining the NPO is supporting their actions, unless you're actively involved with the military. It is not outside the realms of possibility that you just want to maintain friendships and create new ones by joining/already being a member of the NPO, despite what you're "sure of."

2) I have a feeling you're misunderstanding my comment about the military option. I don't in any way blame Lazarus and its citizens for allowing this coup and invasion to happen, I said it's a poor precedent for the other GCRs just to observe and do nothing about it, since the same could easily happen to them, and they'd thus be fools not to support attempts to win Lazarus back from the NPO.

EDIT: Case in point, I'm actually pretty neutral about most things Wntreath is engaged in, and if it didn't have such a friendly, welcoming atmosphere, I wouldn't have applied for citizenship here, let alone run for a seat in the UH, because Wintreath's defender mindset is pretty far off from my more imperialistic one. And yet, thus far, I wouldn't say my presence here is damaging New Hyperion, nor is my presence in New Hyperion damaging Wintreath unless New Hyperion is involved in a military campaign against one of Wintreath's allies, and I'm in that military. And vice-versa.

Will be effective how? All it does is look pretty and restrict our own citizens! And we aren't traditionally ones who derive any sort of pleasure from unnecessarily restricting ourselves!

...And?

Look, I'm against the idea of most things that would restrict our citizens as well, but I also will argue for the things I feel will benefit Wintreath the best.  And if you're willingly choosing to join a group's forum that staged a coup against an ally, then that's not beneficial to Wintreath.  What if they decided to go for us next?  Would you still be part of that messageboard?  In the end it doesn't matter if you joined under the idea that you wouldn't support either military.  If they decided to turn their sites on Wintreath, then you'll be forced to choose a side and lose your status in the other.  So setting it up early in the case of either supporting them or supporting our allies isn't unhead of.

If we had a much larger and much more active military, then I wouldn't be considering following this since I do agree that providing military support is a better alternative than putting a restriction on citizens.  However, considering that's not the case, this really is the better alternative rather than just sitting back and talking about how we don't support the coup.

If someone wants to up and join the NPO, that's fine, and that's on them.  But people on here are pretty well informed of what all is going on...and I highly doubt that anyone on here lacks the intelligence to find other methods to talk to their friends on there without having to resort to seeking citizenship on the coup's messageboard.  Joining that messageboard and seeking citizenship with a group that staged a coup of our allies is essentially saying that you agree with their decisions and that you support the coup, and Wintreath should be able to counter that by revoking citizenship if you choose to go that path.

Really, if anyone on here outside of our new to NS members joins the NPO, I'm at least mostly sure that they know exactly what they're getting into when they're joining it, and I'm also at least pretty sure that they're not just joining it because their friends are on it.

I have no illusions that we'll be able to support the legitimate government on our own. What I'm proposing is an alliance with all the other GCRs, and a few select defender/imperialist organisations. Because really, it's a piss-poor precedent to set when the other GCRs just allow something like this to happen, thus proving that no GCR can take care of its people.

You did read everything that Mooty posted related to this, right?  This wasn't something that Lazarus simply "allowed" to happen in a day.  This is something that has been well planned and played out for quite some time.  This is something that could happen in any GCR or UCR, since all it takes is someone like Milo or Frak to get their hands into it.

Hell, unless they have a system like 10KI's (which is 10 times more restrictive than anything Mooty is even proposing), then anyone is open to being the victim of a coup.

1) There is absolutely no sense to the statement that joining the NPO is supporting their actions, unless you're actively involved with the military. It is not outside the realms of possibility that you just want to maintain friendships and create new ones by joining/already being a member of the NPO, despite what you're "sure of."

2) I have a feeling you're misunderstanding my comment about the military option. I don't in any way blame Lazarus and its citizens for allowing this coup and invasion to happen, I said it's a poor precedent for the other GCRs just to observe and do nothing about it, since the same could easily happen to them, and they'd thus be fools not to support attempts to win Lazarus back from the NPO.

1)I have a feeling you didn't read my entire statement, either.  Again: In the sense of newer players to NS, then I don't agree with taking action against them because really, they're not going to know what is even going on.  In the sense of friendships: There's many different ways (other messageboards you both are part of, Skype, etc...) to maintain your friendships with someone rather than having to resort to joining the messageboard of people like the NPO.  As for making new ones...there's thousands of other regions out there, and a good number of quite expansive ones out there to choose from.  Being a part of Wintreath and joining a group like NPO that you know well enough is someone we don't support or agree with just to "make new friends" is a piss poor excuse.

2) Ah, I gotcha.  Well unfortunately every region operates differently.  The South Pacific has already faced a similar problem in the past (and with Milo no less), so I'm actually a little surprised they're not jumping at the chance to support a liberation.  But unfortunately we can't control what other regions do, but we can control what actions Wintreath takes on this whole thing.

Edit: adding to the #1: Being a part of the NPO already is slightly a different story.  If members are having citizenship revoked because their username is on NPO, then I'm firmly against this whole thing since the NPO forum WAS the Pacific forum before it got a monumental facelift.  However, if they're someone that's still active on the NPO despite everything, then my #1 area still stands.

EDIT: Case in point, I'm actually pretty neutral about most things Wntreath is engaged in, and if it didn't have such a friendly, welcoming atmosphere, I wouldn't have applied for citizenship here, let alone run for a seat in the UH, because Wintreath's defender mindset is pretty far off from my more imperialistic one. And yet, thus far, I wouldn't say my presence here is damaging New Hyperion, nor is my presence in New Hyperion damaging Wintreath unless New Hyperion is involved in a military campaign against one of Wintreath's allies, and I'm in that military. And vice-versa.

And I hate to say that's part of the issue going on here and why we're arguing so back and forth about it.  Part of having the defender mindset is going both ways about it: doing what we can to protect other regions that need it and supporting the actions of other defender regions/militaries...but also doing what we can to protect ourselves in the process..and even something like this can be seen as a way of protecting ourselves as well as promoting that defender mindset that we won't tolerate the deplorable behavior of groups like NPO.

The reason I'm all for the idea of revoking citizenship for something like this is because I've seen other regions institute it for much less reasoning, and they're doing just fine.

Hell, going back on 10KI, Grub will ban anyone that joins a Raider region or supports raiders, came through a Raider group in the NS feeder, and sometimes he'll even do it if he just doesn't like your name...just ask The Church of Satan.

But even with all of the restrictions, 10KI has been around for over 10 years now, and it's still a highly active region that at the moment is the biggest of all of the UCRs, gets 5x the new members daily that Wintreath does, has one of the most active Recruiting forces I've seen, as well as the largest Military forces (TITO), is one of the most active messageboards out there (as Wintermoot pointed out in another thread), and they've been going on strong for those 10+ years.

So they must be doing something right, despite other regions labeling them as a highly isolationist region that has equally high restrictions on their members.  I'm not saying turn Wintreath into the exact same atmosphere, but I do know that despite what OTHER regions say and even with the restrictions, 9/10 of the people there absolutely love it there, so maybe taking a leaf from their playbook and instituting this kind of restriction isn't the worst idea out there.

Will be effective how? All it does is look pretty and restrict our own citizens! And we aren't traditionally ones who derive any sort of pleasure from unnecessarily restricting ourselves!

...And?

Look, I'm against the idea of most things that would restrict our citizens as well, but I also will argue for the things I feel will benefit Wintreath the best.  And if you're willingly choosing to join a group's forum that staged a coup against an ally, then that's not beneficial to Wintreath.  What if they decided to go for us next?  Would you still be part of that messageboard?  In the end it doesn't matter if you joined under the idea that you wouldn't support either military.  If they decided to turn their sites on Wintreath, then you'll be forced to choose a side and lose your status in the other.  So setting it up early in the case of either supporting them or supporting our allies isn't unhead of.

If we had a much larger and much more active military, then I wouldn't be considering following this since I do agree that providing military support is a better alternative than putting a restriction on citizens.  However, considering that's not the case, this really is the better alternative rather than just sitting back and talking about how we don't support the coup.

If someone wants to up and join the NPO, that's fine, and that's on them.  But people on here are pretty well informed of what all is going on...and I highly doubt that anyone on here lacks the intelligence to find other methods to talk to their friends on there without having to resort to seeking citizenship on the coup's messageboard.  Joining that messageboard and seeking citizenship with a group that staged a coup of our allies is essentially saying that you agree with their decisions and that you support the coup, and Wintreath should be able to counter that by revoking citizenship if you choose to go that path.

Really, if anyone on here outside of our new to NS members joins the NPO, I'm at least mostly sure that they know exactly what they're getting into when they're joining it, and I'm also at least pretty sure that they're not just joining it because their friends are on it.

I have no illusions that we'll be able to support the legitimate government on our own. What I'm proposing is an alliance with all the other GCRs, and a few select defender/imperialist organisations. Because really, it's a piss-poor precedent to set when the other GCRs just allow something like this to happen, thus proving that no GCR can take care of its people.

You did read everything that Mooty posted related to this, right?  This wasn't something that Lazarus simply "allowed" to happen in a day.  This is something that has been well planned and played out for quite some time.  This is something that could happen in any GCR or UCR, since all it takes is someone like Milo or Frak to get their hands into it.

Hell, unless they have a system like 10KI's (which is 10 times more restrictive than anything Mooty is even proposing), then anyone is open to being the victim of a coup.

1) There is absolutely no sense to the statement that joining the NPO is supporting their actions, unless you're actively involved with the military. It is not outside the realms of possibility that you just want to maintain friendships and create new ones by joining/already being a member of the NPO, despite what you're "sure of."

2) I have a feeling you're misunderstanding my comment about the military option. I don't in any way blame Lazarus and its citizens for allowing this coup and invasion to happen, I said it's a poor precedent for the other GCRs just to observe and do nothing about it, since the same could easily happen to them, and they'd thus be fools not to support attempts to win Lazarus back from the NPO.

1)I have a feeling you didn't read my entire statement, either.  Again: In the sense of newer players to NS, then I don't agree with taking action against them because really, they're not going to know what is even going on.  In the sense of friendships: There's many different ways (other messageboards you both are part of, Skype, etc...) to maintain your friendships with someone rather than having to resort to joining the messageboard of people like the NPO.  As for making new ones...there's thousands of other regions out there, and a good number of quite expansive ones out there to choose from.  Being a part of Wintreath and joining a group like NPO that you know well enough is someone we don't support or agree with just to "make new friends" is a piss poor excuse.

2) Ah, I gotcha.  Well unfortunately every region operates differently.  The South Pacific has already faced a similar problem in the past (and with Milo no less), so I'm actually a little surprised they're not jumping at the chance to support a liberation.  But unfortunately we can't control what other regions do, but we can control what actions Wintreath takes on this whole thing.

Edit: adding to the #1: Being a part of the NPO already is slightly a different story.  If members are having citizenship revoked because their username is on NPO, then I'm firmly against this whole thing since the NPO forum WAS the Pacific forum before it got a monumental facelift.  However, if they're someone that's still active on the NPO despite everything, then my #1 area still stands.

I grow tired of arguing this. My main question is this. If mere membership (outside of military involvement) doesn't do anything to harm a treaty region, why on Earth should we have to adopt such iron-fisted (and frankly childish) measures and revoke their citizenship?

What I can get behind is legislation saying that if you can't prove you're not part of their military (such as having a WA nation outside of NPO, in no way involved with any NPO operation) and you are then found to be a member on their forums, then your citizenship is revoked.

So that law would look something like this:

Malicious Involvement in Outside Regions Act

1) Any citizen found to be a contributing member of another region that is adversely affecting us or a treatied ally, either through military action or observable espionage, shall lose his/her citizenship.

2) If a citizen is found to be active on such a malicious organisation's forums, they must provide adequate proof of having no malicious intent, such as by pointing an investigator to their WA nation. This WA nation must then in no way be involved with an operation for a malicious organisation, or the citizen will lose his/her citizenship.

3) A citizen is required by law to point us to all the forums they are an active member of, and should an investigator discover that a citizen has declined to point out a forum that they are a part of, and the forum in question belongs to a malicious organisation that is adversely affecting Wintreath, it will be seen as a suspicious act, and citizenship will get revoked

4) A citizen must be completely honest and open when they are under investigation, and any question that is found to be answered dishonestly will be cause for suspicion, and will be handled at the discretion of the Monarch,

This requires people to be honest, while not trying to enforce something with no point, and still keeps a foundation of trust without petty actions becoming necessary.

Another thing that could be added is that citizens are required to have at least one WA puppet within the region, unless they are already a WA Delegate of another region that we are at peace with (like me), or involved with a military activity for a region that we are at peace with, involving a region that doesn't affect us or a treatied ally.

I apologise in advance for any errors. I'm a bit tired.

EDIT: Case in point, I'm actually pretty neutral about most things Wntreath is engaged in, and if it didn't have such a friendly, welcoming atmosphere, I wouldn't have applied for citizenship here, let alone run for a seat in the UH, because Wintreath's defender mindset is pretty far off from my more imperialistic one. And yet, thus far, I wouldn't say my presence here is damaging New Hyperion, nor is my presence in New Hyperion damaging Wintreath unless New Hyperion is involved in a military campaign against one of Wintreath's allies, and I'm in that military. And vice-versa.

And I hate to say that's part of the issue going on here and why we're arguing so back and forth about it.  Part of having the defender mindset is going both ways about it: doing what we can to protect other regions that need it and supporting the actions of other defender regions/militaries...but also doing what we can to protect ourselves in the process..and even something like this can be seen as a way of protecting ourselves as well as promoting that defender mindset that we won't tolerate the deplorable behavior of groups like NPO.

The reason I'm all for the idea of revoking citizenship for something like this is because I've seen other regions institute it for much less reasoning, and they're doing just fine.

Hell, going back on 10KI, Grub will ban anyone that joins a Raider region or supports raiders, came through a Raider group in the NS feeder, and sometimes he'll even do it if he just doesn't like your name...just ask The Church of Satan.

But even with all of the restrictions, 10KI has been around for over 10 years now, and it's still a highly active region that at the moment is the biggest of all of the UCRs, gets 5x the new members daily that Wintreath does, has one of the most active Recruiting forces I've seen, as well as the largest Military forces (TITO), is one of the most active messageboards out there (as Wintermoot pointed out in another thread), and they've been going on strong for those 10+ years.

So they must be doing something right, despite other regions labeling them as a highly isolationist region that has equally high restrictions on their members.  I'm not saying turn Wintreath into the exact same atmosphere, but I do know that despite what OTHER regions say and even with the restrictions, 9/10 of the people there absolutely love it there, so maybe taking a leaf from their playbook and instituting this kind of restriction isn't the worst idea out there.

It seems we'll have to agree to disagree then. I simply see no practical reason for the issue at hand, short of the legislation I've just proposed.

And just when I thought this was not going to be controversial.

Some thoughts...

1) The events in Lazarus go beyond any R/D action, as seen by the support the government in exile has received from raiders and imperialists...essentially, one of Lazarus's own allies utilized their members in high places to seize control of the region so they can create a puppet state. This is something they themselves confirmed without shame, and without any regard for what anyone else thought of it, from the natives of Lazarus to their own diplomatic partners. Again, they did not merely support a coup, they used their influence to mastermind a takeover of an allied region. My proposal is not based on a defender mindset, but on a desire to do the utmost to take steps to make an impact against a regime that has committed an atrocity and simply doesn't care about world opinion.

2) Speaking of which, the fact of the matter is there are very few ways to make an impact on the NPO at this point. They've held ironclad control over The Pacific for over 11 years now, and no army of any size could change that right now. Even with the world working together, just liberating Lazarus will be a tall measure, although we will do our part when the time comes. In order to make an impact, regions will have to adopt unconventional measures such as this and hold by them for a long period of time. And I'm not under any illusions that anything we do alone will have an impact, but it is my hope that other regions will take up measures like this and that collectively we can make an impact.

3) Short of advocating forum destruction or some real-life illegal action, I don't think it would be possible to "embarrass ourselves" in this matter...the actions committed are that universally abhorrent. However, I don't believe fear of embarrassing ourselves should prevent us from taking bold, principled stances. We opposed the coup in Osiris and the resultant Osiris Fraternal Order long after all other regions had accepted it, and one could argue our stance was detrimental to the region, but I do not regret having made that stance and I wouldn't regret making other globally unpopular stances for a good cause. However, I assure you that it would be nearly impossible to make an unpopular stance against the NPO at this point.

4) I'm very troubled with the idea that we shouldn't do this because it will 'restrict' our Citizens, because it implies that we should allow them to do whatever they damn well please. I've watched too many other regions in the past simply stand by and claim they couldn't do anything about events such as this because their people are conducting actions as private Citizens...are we to be the same? While I don't take any measure that restricts Citizens lightly, I do believe that at some point you have to accept that it's incompatible to be a Citizen of this region and to take or provide material support for certain things, actions that are beyond the pale and go beyond merely opposing each other on the gameplay battlefield.

5) It is true that it would be impossible to completely enforce this law, but the same could be said for many other laws both in NS and in RL, and that alone should not be a reason not to make them. Our persona non grata declarations could be overcome with a proxy or VPN and providing fake information. Many laws could be skirted by committing them out of the public eye, but it would be silly to just not have laws. Regardless of the law, of course it can only be enforced if the people violating it are caught.

6) The proposed "Malicious Involvement in Outside Regions Act" goes far beyond what I believe is necessary. Again, this is not a mere R/D fight, but a very unique, abhorrent, nearly universally condemned event conducted by a single entity: the NPO. I don't believe it's necessary to have a framework, because I don't foresee another instance of these events occuring for some time, if for no other reason than most regions and organizations give a damn about their reputations. Having an outright framework is unnecessary, and long-term could only lead to arguments between defenders and non-defender, whereas there's no disagreement on this particular event.

I hope I covered all the bases...apologize if I missed something, I woke up in the middle of the night and saw the debate.

Call me stubborn, but I just don't like the idea of having no frame-work.

Regardless, although I don't agree with the measures being proposed here, I won't argue my points any further, as I believe I've done so well and long enough. It is true that the rarity of the issue makes my concerns a bit irrelevant, but this does still set up a precedent for possible future scenarios.

I'm once more bidding caution, that is where I'll leave it.

Speaking of framework, wouldn't a citizen facing removal of citizenship as described in the OP have the right to a trial?  Or would this act allow the Storting/Monarch to extra-judicially remove citizens without due process?

I imagine it would be most often used when someone that's already there applies for Citizenship, if that happens at all. They would kindly be told that they would have to renounce their NPO Citizenship in order to take up Citizenship here. In that case there are no legal considerations required as they are not Citizens at that point. I think it's unlikely that a Wintrean would want to go over there, especially now, but in the event that were to happen I suppose it is up to the Storting to answer that question. I personally have no preference.

Of course, I believe it's most likely these provisions will never be used anyways, because as far as I'm aware there's no overlap between our regions and in almost two years never has been. As I said before, it's more about making a stand that hopefully other regions will also take.

Also Pengu's somewhat right on the military aspect, our military is small...with only 5 members of the WHR active and that's: Me, Gov, Wintermoot, Pengu, and Hugsim. That's just general participation too! when counting military op partcipation in which Hugsim, Pengu, and I would not even be apart of it. FURTHERMORE Hugsim is only on available during Minor, and not major.

Also we have only one active SV member and that's Saphhiron.

So yes our military needs to be fixed, and yes it's my job to do it, but I can't do it right now because I've been/am sick.

Edit: Also the enforcement of a law banning NPO/NLO Citizenship would depend on if the law is an amendment of Citizenship requirements or the creation of a criminal law, like the code of criminal laws (although it would require High Crime classification if added to the Code of Criminal Laws). If it is a change to citizenship requirements then it would be simple citizenship revocation with appeal. If it is a criminal law then it would require a law, with it being heard by the Storting. (Yes the judiciary hears CIVIL cases, not CRIMINAL ones :/ )

That's five members... Not four...
But the point still stands.