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For reference, I am against this entirely.
I'm not a fan of controlling where our citizens go. It's really not something I've any interest in Wintreath as a body calling out. It promotes suspicion, rivalry, and deceit.
It is one thing to declare individuals to be against us. It is another to say that any individual who interacts with these individuals is against us. It is a false choice. There is no for or against us. We have little interaction on a true level with them and the thought behind an ideals war is absurd and forceful.

I urge all. Don't support this. 

I'll respectfully disagree with that.

I don't necessarily see rejecting citizenship for joining a region currently under occupation via a coup as punishing those "against us."

But I do see continuing to allow citizenship to those who join a region currently under occupation via a coup as promoting that Wintreath allows its citizens to join said regions even when it was one of our ally regions that was invaded.  It tells people that we completely accept and support the idea of regions being invaded, even if we're not vocally saying it.

But in the most hurtful part, it tells people that they shouldn't establish ties with us, because fuck it, if your region gets invaded, we don't care!  We'll still allow our citizens to join even though we "say" we don't support that government that runs it, because we don't want our citizens to think that we throw out anyone who is "against us."  So why even both establishing a treaty with us if we're going to throw it out the door the minute your region is taken over?

So this is why I promote it, because taking the opposite route and doing absolutely nothing while saying we don't agree with it makes Wintreath look much worse (and makes us come off as the flip floppy sort that is essentially like "Well, we completely disagree with this, but...").  Doing nothing but saying "Oh...we don't agree with this." is what will actually embarrass Wintreath because it shows that we don't honor our treaties to the full extent, and it will make people more hesitant to want to establish ties with us.

To an extent, Pengu, you're right, but some people could well be in these other regions mainly because they enjoy it there, and have absolutely no interest in supporting said regions with their military shenanigans. If we're then going to be little children and declare that people need to choose between friends, even though they aren't even involved with the military, we'll look far worse. This is, in my opinion, an emotional appeal that causes more harm than good, and attempts to be too idealistic, in a misguided way.

EDIT: Besides, if we lend military support as a region and plan the co-operative defense against the NPO and its lackeys, I would call someone out for their bullshit immediately if they say: "Oh, look at Wintreath! Some of its citizens [which can't easily be proven] are also members of the organisations they claim to despise! What a disgrace!", because we as a region would actually have done something real to help out, not just talk about it and make fancy and misguided declarations of "you're either with us or against us."

Laurentus has stated faster than I what I was going to say.
I don't want to let a tiny annoying disgusting part of this big game we call NS to ruin and poison the other parts. Particularly as a region where the focus is not r\d or interregional involvements this just seems... Bossy. And ignorant of all the other reasons to play this game.

To an extent, Pengu, you're right, but some people could well be in these other regions mainly because they enjoy it there, and have absolutely no interest in supporting said regions with their military shenanigans. If we're then going to be little children and declare that people need to choose between friends, even though they aren't even involved with the military, we'll look far worse. This is, in my opinion, an emotional appeal that causes more harm than good, and attempts to be too idealistic, in a misguided way.

You're missing a major point, though.

This entire thing isn't about rejecting/revoking citizenship for people who actually just want to join Lazarus, aka this forum, which is the legitimate Lazarus forum.  In fact, by all means, anyone who wants to join is more than welcome.  Join the region of Lazarus and apply for citizenship in the actual Lazarus forums.

The entire thing is Wintreath condemning the actions of those who wish to join and support the current coup by seeking citizenship in the invaders' forum, aka The New Pacific/Lazarene Order.  Because that is essentially saying that you support the coup, even if you're not involved/interested in the military.

And really?  We're going to look like children for honoring our treaties?

Then what's the point of even establishing embassies and having treaties if we're going to look like "children" for honoring them?

To an extent, Pengu, you're right, but some people could well be in these other regions mainly because they enjoy it there, and have absolutely no interest in supporting said regions with their military shenanigans. If we're then going to be little children and declare that people need to choose between friends, even though they aren't even involved with the military, we'll look far worse. This is, in my opinion, an emotional appeal that causes more harm than good, and attempts to be too idealistic, in a misguided way.

You're missing a major point, though.

This entire thing isn't about rejecting/revoking citizenship for people who actually just want to join Lazarus, aka this forum, which is the legitimate Lazarus forum.  In fact, by all means, anyone who wants to join is more than welcome.  Join the region of Lazarus and apply for citizenship in the actual Lazarus forums.

The entire thing is Wintreath condemning the actions of those who wish to join and support the current coup by seeking citizenship in the invaders' forum, aka The New Pacific/Lazarene Order.  Because that is essentially saying that you support the coup, even if you're not involved/interested in the military.

And really?  We're going to look like children for honoring our treaties?

Then what's the point of even establishing embassies and having treaties if we're going to look like "children" for honoring them?

... Read my edit as a partial retort, specifically the part about our military aid against the NPO.

To address the rest of it, some people could ALREADY be a member of the NPO because they ENJOY THE PEOPLE'S COMPANY, and then we really do look like children who get offended that one of their friends are also friends with someone they don't particularly like, and then declare on the spot that they have to choose, even though their friend's friendship with their enemy has absolutely no damaging effects in any real sense.

How would it apply to existing members?

To an extent, Pengu, you're right, but some people could well be in these other regions mainly because they enjoy it there, and have absolutely no interest in supporting said regions with their military shenanigans. If we're then going to be little children and declare that people need to choose between friends, even though they aren't even involved with the military, we'll look far worse. This is, in my opinion, an emotional appeal that causes more harm than good, and attempts to be too idealistic, in a misguided way.

You're missing a major point, though.

This entire thing isn't about rejecting/revoking citizenship for people who actually just want to join Lazarus, aka this forum, which is the legitimate Lazarus forum.  In fact, by all means, anyone who wants to join is more than welcome.  Join the region of Lazarus and apply for citizenship in the actual Lazarus forums.

The entire thing is Wintreath condemning the actions of those who wish to join and support the current coup by seeking citizenship in the invaders' forum, aka The New Pacific/Lazarene Order.  Because that is essentially saying that you support the coup, even if you're not involved/interested in the military.

And really?  We're going to look like children for honoring our treaties?

Then what's the point of even establishing embassies and having treaties if we're going to look like "children" for honoring them?

... Read my edit as a partial retort, specifically the part about our military aid against the NPO.

To address the rest of it, some people could ALREADY be a member of the NPO because they ENJOY THE PEOPLE'S COMPANY, and then we really do look like children who get offended that one of their friends are also friends with someone they don't particularly like, and then declare on the spot that they have to choose, even though their friend's friendship with their enemy has absolutely no damaging effects in any real sense.

Again though, I ask you what's the point of even establishing any type of treaty in the first place then if we're not going to honor it because it makes us look like children?

If your argument is "Well we're not going to punish someone for doing something because it makes us look like children."  Then fuck even having treaties.  Hell, fuck even going through the process of establishing embassies or the like.

Hell, just fuck having allies, because god forbid we look like children because we're honoring any sort of pact that we have with them.

To an extent, Pengu, you're right, but some people could well be in these other regions mainly because they enjoy it there, and have absolutely no interest in supporting said regions with their military shenanigans. If we're then going to be little children and declare that people need to choose between friends, even though they aren't even involved with the military, we'll look far worse. This is, in my opinion, an emotional appeal that causes more harm than good, and attempts to be too idealistic, in a misguided way.

You're missing a major point, though.

This entire thing isn't about rejecting/revoking citizenship for people who actually just want to join Lazarus, aka this forum, which is the legitimate Lazarus forum.  In fact, by all means, anyone who wants to join is more than welcome.  Join the region of Lazarus and apply for citizenship in the actual Lazarus forums.

The entire thing is Wintreath condemning the actions of those who wish to join and support the current coup by seeking citizenship in the invaders' forum, aka The New Pacific/Lazarene Order.  Because that is essentially saying that you support the coup, even if you're not involved/interested in the military.

And really?  We're going to look like children for honoring our treaties?

Then what's the point of even establishing embassies and having treaties if we're going to look like "children" for honoring them?

... Read my edit as a partial retort, specifically the part about our military aid against the NPO.

To address the rest of it, some people could ALREADY be a member of the NPO because they ENJOY THE PEOPLE'S COMPANY, and then we really do look like children who get offended that one of their friends are also friends with someone they don't particularly like, and then declare on the spot that they have to choose, even though their friend's friendship with their enemy has absolutely no damaging effects in any real sense.

Again though, I ask you what's the point of even establishing any type of treaty in the first place then if we're not going to honor it because it makes us look like children?

If your argument is "Well we're not going to punish someone for doing something because it makes us look like children."  Then fuck even having treaties.  Hell, fuck even going through the process of establishing embassies or the like.

Hell, just fuck having allies, because god forbid we look like children because we're honoring any sort of pact that we have with them.

Are you not reading the part about military support?

If I see you get attacked on the street, which would you appreciate more: that I strongly condemn your attacker's actions and declare that henceforth I'm going to cut ties with any friend who is also a friend of his, or that I intervene in a real sense by stopping the attack, and possibly launching a counter-attack then and there?

If someone steals your house, would you prefer it if I condemn said person and also anyone who has any ties with that person, even though they had nothing to do with the criminal behaviour, or would you prefer me to step into the house and drive out the invader?

EDIT: For me the choice is clear. I'd much prefer my treaty allies to lend support in a real and effective sense to help me get my home back, not bicker and argue about trivialities such as these.

But this is more than honoring a treaty with them. This is going beyond the duty set out...
I mean I am also against setting up treaties like that or having allies that would expect that sort of thing exactly because it does get us into stupid unnecessary situations exactly like this one but I suppose that's a different point altogether.

But this is more than honoring a treaty with them. This is going beyond the duty set out...
I mean I am also against setting up treaties like that or having allies that would expect that sort of thing exactly because it does get us into stupid unnecessary situations exactly like this one but I suppose that's a different point altogether.

This is where I disagree. I believe the treaties are useful and should be honoured, but in a meaningful way, like military support, and an actual attempt to help out, not just pretending to give a fuck through laws like the one we're discussing.

Yeah my isolationist views are unpopular. Though I've never truly understood why... We are rarely made overall happier by others and when we are it's rare that it's others that would hang out with us sans treaty.
Embassies are fine because they don't do anything but let us get the news and some cute ambassadors but treaties are a bit unpleasant.

Except for us to provide military support, we'd need to have an active military.  Which, while we do have members that sign up, we currently do not, since the WHR has never actually done anything outside of stand there and look pretty.  So we don't even know if we have any active military members outside of our JoD and possibly a tiny handful of others.  Unless we aided other Defender militaries such as TITO, I fail to see the point of even suggesting military support outside of being something that'll just make us look "good," because we tried to "help out."

Mooty's idea is actually something that, while may be something some will disagree with, will be effective, and will be the most effective way to honor those treaties.

Will be effective how? All it does is look pretty and restrict our own citizens! And we aren't traditionally ones who derive any sort of pleasure from unnecessarily restricting ourselves!

But this is more than honoring a treaty with them. This is going beyond the duty set out...
I mean I am also against setting up treaties like that or having allies that would expect that sort of thing exactly because it does get us into stupid unnecessary situations exactly like this one but I suppose that's a different point altogether.

But that's the entire point of even having treaties.  It's a simple of way of saying that you have each others' backs if anything happens, along with whatever other things a treaty says.