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Werewolf #3: Yu Gi Oh Abridged
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Laurentus
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  • I'm not so convinced on Amalya and I was leaning towards Laurentus being an innocent villager but I'm not sure.

    I'm thinking the lack of wolf kills isn't because of inactivity, but that doesn't mean they aren't being quiet in the game. There have been a few players that fit this bill. In fact, I think that if TCL doesn't vote this phase he will be lynched for inactivity :/

    Sapphiron said they were against lynching inactive players as it gave the werewolves a good excuse. I think this is a good point, but at the same time it means we should be lynching the active players who are more of a threat to the werewolves.

    From the lynching of Barry, we can't really rule anyone out. The wolves didn't know he was the assassin, so they could have voted for him. If one of the other people likely to be lynched that phase was a WW though, the people who originally voted for Barry would be more suspect.

    Laurentus, Barry and TCL were the three people with votes against them in the 2nd phase. Laurentus and Sapphiron both voted for TCL and then switched their votes to Barry later on. Laurentus seems to have done it to save himself, which doesn't really say much. Sapphiron  switched to vote for Barry. If Sapphiron is a wolf, the change of vote wouldn't make sense as an attempt to save Laurentus if Laurentus was the second wolf.

    Now Laurentus has voted for Amalya and Sapphiron is agreeing that Amalya is suspicious. Even if they were working together, it is possible that they are the defenders and not werewolves but I am still a little suspect.

    The last thing I will point out is Sauron is being a little quieter than usual, but perhaps that is because he doesn't visit this forum enough.

    I will let people speak up before I vote, but at the moment I am leaning towards Laurentus.

    Yeah, quite a few contradictions here, but I can't decide whether this is biased behaviour because Amalya is a fellow region-mate, or wolfish activity.

    You clearly pointed out quite a few reasons I'm not a suspect, then at the end, with very little logical progression to the point, say I'm suspect.

    I'm not going to say anymore. My posts thus far have made my case as clear as I can legally make it. If I get lynched, so be it. I'm really hoping logic wins the day.
    In die donker ure skink net duiwels nog 'n dop, 
    Satan sit saam sy kinders en kyk hoe kom die son op. 
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    Laurentus
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    Sapphiron
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  • aternox isn't a Wintrean ???
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    Laurentus
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  • My apologies, then, Aternox. The rest of my statement still applies, however.
    In die donker ure skink net duiwels nog 'n dop, 
    Satan sit saam sy kinders en kyk hoe kom die son op. 
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    Laurentus
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    Sauron
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  • The last thing I will point out is Sauron is being a little quieter than usual, but perhaps that is because he doesn't visit this forum enough.

    I'll defend Ater here, since this seems to have gotten him in a bit of hot water. I'll say it first. Ater is correct I've been a little quiet, this isn't a forum I frequent often and joined as I enjoyed Pengu's WW game over in XKI. I often forget to check the forums here, and it appears I'm in a much different timezone to the rest of you and miss a lot of the important conversations, or join towards the natural conclusion of them, which gives the impression I'm being quiet.

    Ater's had a lot of experience playing with me and probably notices any behaviour that is out of the norm that I am exhibiting. Especially after some of our more recent games I'm probably close to being suspect number 1  O:-)

    Ater's post isn't too out of the norm for him. He's posting a list of people he suspects with reasons as to why he suspects them. It strikes me as a villager who is using all he has to devise a suspect list, as opposed to anything else. It's a common tactic in XKI and usually identifies werewolves in the long run by shining a spotlight on a suspect. I'd imagine Ater's shined a spotlight on a WW in that post (if for no other reason he simply named a few people).

    Sapphiron's lynch vote of Ater strikes me as odd, but I'll chalk it up with the believe I don't think they've had much experience of playing with one another so probably not familiar with each others style of play.

    If we have an inactive Wolf, which is a possibility still it looks like we might lose one of them today. TCL. So it'd be pointless lynching them anyway.

    I think our choice comes down to Amalya or Laurentus. It is a hard one as there isn't a great deal to go on and without our seer or his army everything is a stab in the dark.

    Laurentus has been the more aggressive player and I'd like to were he a wolf think he wouldn't put a target on his back. It would be a risky move that perhaps one or two other in XKI would do, especially as the seer has departed. For now I'm willing to accept him on his word.

    So I shall reluctantly lynch the other option. I'm not convinced Amalya is a wolf but there isn't a whole lot to go on or too many other suspects, and if we did lynch another suspect, I think this debate would end up derailing the next couple of days anyway.

    Vote Lynch Amalya
    Evil Lord Sauron, Founder of Mordor
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    Sapphiron
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  • I see, so it's basically aternox's gaming style. However, fortunately or unfortunately, I have more than one reason to vote for aternox, with one being some sort of coincidence.
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    Sauron
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  • I see, so it's basically aternox's gaming style. However, fortunately or unfortunately, I have more than one reason to vote for aternox, with one being some sort of coincidence.

    Care to share? :O
    Evil Lord Sauron, Founder of Mordor
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    Sapphiron
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  • I will break Rule 4. :P
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    Aaron Specter
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  • *Sigh*. Here we go again. It seems I'll remain a suspect until I'm either voted of, killed by wolves, or victorious against the wolves. The wolves did a great job by killing Wintermoot on the first day, but I must say I'm alarmed that people keep thinking I'd draw this much attention to myself if I'm a wolf.

    It is similar thinking that nearly got one of your innocent players killed in the first werewolf, specifically with bandwagoning from Amalya, who was the seer at that stage. I find it hard to believe that innocent villagers would make the same mistake twice. Amalya also voted at one stage to lynch Colberius X, who got killed that night by wolves, and Amalya's defence the following day was that no werewolf in his/her right mind would draw that much attention to themselves. Precisely my point. And yet Amalya has it in for me big time. No offence intended, Amalya. :)

    Whatever action I now take will just solidify some people's beliefs that I'm the werewolf. It's called conjecture.

    The clear problem I'm faced with is that I can't just vote to lynch Aaron Specter, as that equals guilt, nor can I vote to send people I actually suspect might be wolves to duel, as said persons could simply say: "Oh, what a werewolf thing to do."

    *Sigh*. It's worth a shot: Send Amalya to duel.

    I'm not quite sure how to respond to this post, this seems to be a generally comment to us with regards to previous games. This is my first WW game here and have only briefly skimmed through the last game.

    You're giving the accusation against you as reasons for not being at all productive. You're right in that whatever you say someone could reply 'that's a werewolf thing to do' but that goes for anything any of us do. You could say the exact same thing to me for my accusation. Bearing that in mind, I'd like to know who you think might be wolves and why, including Amalya.


    This is definitely a justified deduction based on my seemingly protective nature of Laurentus. However, even if we were to assume that the both of us are linked by our roles, the argument fails to take into consideration that Bakura/Florence and Odion are not the only roles that are linked and are aware of each other.

    Meanwhile, I am starting to find Amalya's behavior surprising. No, this is not because she has just voted for Laurentus or that Laurentus has just voted for her. Call me acting based on previous experience but Amalya isn't someone who will bear a grudge for an extended period of time, even if our beloved Monarch was killed during the first night phase. Her constant insistence and conviction that Laurentus is a Werewolf puzzles me. She repeats that his thought processes and behavior aligns with that of a Werewolf but she has never provided evidence. As such, I would be lying if I were to say I have never suspected Amalya.

    I will break Rule 4. :P

    Softly claiming that you're defenders and accusing the the person who accused Laurentus. That is interesting. Why would the real defenders be so obvious?

    I won't quote aternox's post. I don't believe aternox was being contradictory. At the beginning he did say he was leaning towards Laurentus being a goodie, and that he was at the moment leaning Laurentus being a baddie. I think we're all allowed to change our minds. However I must ask, aternox - what do you make of the relative silences of The Candy Lane and taulover, especially with regards to Sauron?

    If I've read and counted correctly, so far there is a 2 way tie between Laurentus (myself and Amalya) and Amalya (Laurentus and Sauron) with aternox receiving a vote from Sapphiron. We are yet to see votes from taulover, The Candy Lane, (both of whom are yet to speak at all this phase) Colberius (waiting to see something of substance) and aternox. We have 7 hours to go.
    We understand how dangerous a mask can be. We all become what we pretend to be. We all wear masks, and the time comes when we cannot remove them without removing some of our own skin.

    Aaron Specter
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    Laurentus
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  • *Sigh*. Here we go again. It seems I'll remain a suspect until I'm either voted of, killed by wolves, or victorious against the wolves. The wolves did a great job by killing Wintermoot on the first day, but I must say I'm alarmed that people keep thinking I'd draw this much attention to myself if I'm a wolf.

    It is similar thinking that nearly got one of your innocent players killed in the first werewolf, specifically with bandwagoning from Amalya, who was the seer at that stage. I find it hard to believe that innocent villagers would make the same mistake twice. Amalya also voted at one stage to lynch Colberius X, who got killed that night by wolves, and Amalya's defence the following day was that no werewolf in his/her right mind would draw that much attention to themselves. Precisely my point. And yet Amalya has it in for me big time. No offence intended, Amalya. :)

    Whatever action I now take will just solidify some people's beliefs that I'm the werewolf. It's called conjecture.

    The clear problem I'm faced with is that I can't just vote to lynch Aaron Specter, as that equals guilt, nor can I vote to send people I actually suspect might be wolves to duel, as said persons could simply say: "Oh, what a werewolf thing to do."

    *Sigh*. It's worth a shot: Send Amalya to duel.

    I'm not quite sure how to respond to this post, this seems to be a generally comment to us with regards to previous games. This is my first WW game here and have only briefly skimmed through the last game.

    You're giving the accusation against you as reasons for not being at all productive. You're right in that whatever you say someone could reply 'that's a werewolf thing to do' but that goes for anything any of us do. You could say the exact same thing to me for my accusation. Bearing that in mind, I'd like to know who you think might be wolves and why, including Amalya.


    This is definitely a justified deduction based on my seemingly protective nature of Laurentus. However, even if we were to assume that the both of us are linked by our roles, the argument fails to take into consideration that Bakura/Florence and Odion are not the only roles that are linked and are aware of each other.

    Meanwhile, I am starting to find Amalya's behavior surprising. No, this is not because she has just voted for Laurentus or that Laurentus has just voted for her. Call me acting based on previous experience but Amalya isn't someone who will bear a grudge for an extended period of time, even if our beloved Monarch was killed during the first night phase. Her constant insistence and conviction that Laurentus is a Werewolf puzzles me. She repeats that his thought processes and behavior aligns with that of a Werewolf but she has never provided evidence. As such, I would be lying if I were to say I have never suspected Amalya.

    I will break Rule 4. :P

    Softly claiming that you're defenders and accusing the the person who accused Laurentus. That is interesting. Why would the real defenders be so obvious?

    I won't quote aternox's post. I don't believe aternox was being contradictory. At the beginning he did say he was leaning towards Laurentus being a goodie, and that he was at the moment leaning Laurentus being a baddie. I think we're all allowed to change our minds. However I must ask, aternox - what do you make of the relative silences of The Candy Lane and taulover, especially with regards to Sauron?

    If I've read and counted correctly, so far there is a 2 way tie between Laurentus (myself and Amalya) and Amalya (Laurentus and Sauron) with aternox receiving a vote from Sapphiron. We are yet to see votes from taulover, The Candy Lane, (both of whom are yet to speak at all this phase) Colberius (waiting to see something of substance) and aternox. We have 7 hours to go.


    This post displays the clearest instance of illogical insistence to vote me off that I have seen so far.

    "Why would the real defenders be so obvious?" This is, in itself, a loaded question that has to be carefully considered. Sapphiron didn't hint to us being the defending pair, she merely pointed out that this would be a logical possibility, as well as a plausibility to explain the behaviour that you found indicative of wolfishness. And then she at length gave a logical analysis of Amalya's actions, stopping just short of completely sharing my vote to lynch Amalya for being a wolf.
     This is merely logical behaviour, as she explained.

    That said, a logical answer to your very loaded question of "why make it obvious," would be to avoid getting a partner lynched, as that would be something of a tragedy for the defending pair. I'm certain I don't have to elaborate on that.

    Your remarks regarding Aternox's post are the most interesting. I won't make any judgments on your choice not to quote him, but it does make your argument look better than it actually is, as you then avoid having his bullet-riddled argument (if it can be called that) in the same post as yours. My observation of his contradiction isn't based ONLY on the opening sentence where he claims to have been leaning on the probability of me not being a werewolf. The contradiction comes in because he spent the entire post proving why he didn't suspect me, only to come out of left field and say that he now DOES suspect me, without providing the same methodical evidence for his latter claim, especially as it goes up against every point he had made up to that stage. Given this, I can see why Sapphiron would find his behaviour to be suspicious, and therefore her vote could be justified, as one of the ways listed of spotting wolves is precisely identifying these types of inconsistencies.

    Further on to your question, my biggest suspects right now would be Aternox (for reasons already explained at length), Amalya, simply because of her insistence to kill me without evidence, and you, Aaron, because of the intentionally sneaky post you just tried to pass off as logic.

    And regarding your comment about me being able to say that any challenge to my actions could also be seen as werewolf behaviour on the part of the player who challenges me, I say touché, sir. One uncomfortable addition to my situation is however that I voted to lynch the seer, and then the wolves subsequently killed him. This is however very similar to what happened with Amalya in Werewolf #1, and yet she didn't draw nearly as much fire from it, with the majority conceding that it would be a poor tactic for any wolf, and ultimately deciding to move on, which was the logical thing to do. I must therefore get suspicious when people keep using this as the basis for suspecting me, especially when the most insistent one shared very similar circumstances.

    Let me also once and for all address that very sequence of events in which Wintermoot got killed. True, a gutsy werewolf could try something like that, thinking that they could get away with it, but this is ultimately a stupid tactic for a wolf, since it is taking an unnecessary risk, basically just for the hell of it.

    It is much better strategy to kill someone off, and then create the possibility for another active player to take the fall for it. This is also far more likely.
    In die donker ure skink net duiwels nog 'n dop, 
    Satan sit saam sy kinders en kyk hoe kom die son op. 
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    Laurentus
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    Laurentus
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  • Actually, I've just had an epiphany. I change my stance to Vote: Send aternox to duel.

    Wolves would most likely try to defend one another, as Aaron just tried to do with Aternox, and yet the arguments used were so inconsistent as to be highly suspicious.

    I may come to regret this later, but Amalya is pretty far down my suspect list now.
    In die donker ure skink net duiwels nog 'n dop, 
    Satan sit saam sy kinders en kyk hoe kom die son op. 
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    Laurentus
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    taulover
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  • So right now we have:
    Laurentus 2
    Aternox 2
    Amalya 1
    Am I correct?

    In favor of keeping things interesting (and, of course, because I am completely inexperienced with this game and have no idea what the hell I am doing):
    Vote: Lynch Amalya
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    taulover
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    Laurentus
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  • I can't fault Taulover's reasoning, as I too am new, but it seems a bit counter-productive right now not to tip the majority to someone's detriment based on observation or solid theory, unless of course you don't think any sufficient evidence has thus far been delivered, Taulover?
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    Aaron Specter
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  • This post displays the clearest instance of illogical insistence to vote me off that I have seen so far.


    The post was not all about you.

    "Why would the real defenders be so obvious?" This is, in itself, a loaded question that has to be carefully considered. Sapphiron didn't hint to us being the defending pair, she merely pointed out that this would be a logical possibility, as well as a plausibility to explain the behaviour that you found indicative of wolfishness. And then she at length gave a logical analysis of Amalya's actions, stopping just short of completely sharing my vote to lynch Amalya for being a wolf.
     This is merely logical behaviour, as she explained.

    That said, a logical answer to your very loaded question of "why make it obvious," would be to avoid getting a partner lynched, as that would be something of a tragedy for the defending pair. I'm certain I don't have to elaborate on that.

    I expected a response from Sapphiron, having quoted her. I'm sure she can defend herself. But perhaps you felt it natural to jump to her aid? 

    My point was - if you are defenders, which is the heavy implication, then it's now out. She had a few choices, like saying it was based on gut instinct, or whatever, but she deliberately pointed out that the teamwork might not be for the wolf team, but for the defender team. In additional, the Rule 4 thing. A little overkill, I think.


    Your remarks regarding Aternox's post are the most interesting. I won't make any judgments on your choice not to quote him, but it does make your argument look better than it actually is, as you then avoid having his bullet-riddled argument (if it can be called that) in the same post as yours. My observation of his contradiction isn't based ONLY on the opening sentence where he claims to have been leaning on the probability of me not being a werewolf. The contradiction comes in because he spent the entire post proving why he didn't suspect me, only to come out of left field and say that he now DOES suspect me, without providing the same methodical evidence for his latter claim, especially as it goes up against every point he had made up to that stage. Given this, I can see why Sapphiron would find his behaviour to be suspicious, and therefore her vote could be justified, as one of the ways listed of spotting wolves is precisely identifying these types of inconsistencies.

    "I won't judge you" -> proceeds to judge me. So much for contradictions. I kept the quote out for the sake of not turning my post into an even longer wall of text as not all of it was relevant. I won't make the same mistake next time.

    I don't see how what I said about his post was inconsistent. Nor do I see your point about how he "spent the entire post" proving he didn't suspect you. Perhaps I'm missing something or being an idiot and misreading - and I'm willing to go through another interpretation of his post if he himself, or you, will provide one - but throughout his post I do not see the contradiction. It could be argued Sapphiron's two pieces of quote from his post were taken out of his post to deliberately make it look like he was 'trying to lynch innocent villagers', despite me pointing out the change in the temporal nature of the sentences. Is that how you spot wolves?


    Further on to your question, my biggest suspects right now would be Aternox (for reasons already explained at length), Amalya, simply because of her insistence to kill me without evidence, and you, Aaron, because of the intentionally sneaky post you just tried to pass off as logic.

    Ouch. Try to draw out some material from everyone so we can keep the conversation going, and I get called 'intentionally sneaky'.

    And regarding your comment about me being able to say that any challenge to my actions could also be seen as werewolf behaviour on the part of the player who challenges me, I say touché, sir. One uncomfortable addition to my situation is however that I voted to lynch the seer, and then the wolves subsequently killed him. This is however very similar to what happened with Amalya in Werewolf #1, and yet she didn't draw nearly as much fire from it, with the majority conceding that it would be a poor tactic for any wolf, and ultimately deciding to move on, which was the logical thing to do. I must therefore get suspicious when people keep using this as the basis for suspecting me, especially when the most insistent one shared very similar circumstances.

    Let me also once and for all address that very sequence of events in which Wintermoot got killed. True, a gutsy werewolf could try something like that, thinking that they could get away with it, but this is ultimately a stupid tactic for a wolf, since it is taking an unnecessary risk, basically just for the hell of it.

    It is much better strategy to kill someone off, and then create the possibility for another active player to take the fall for it. This is also far more likely.

    But you don't give yourself enough credit - is it not feasible that you planned it from the outset so that you could use that very defense of "too stupid to try to pull off" later on? It seems to have convinced some.

    Hmm. On the one hand, Laurentus, the tone of your posts makes you out to be a goodie trying to stay alive. But on the other, your association with Sapphiron seems suspect. You just bandwagoned with her to lynch aternox thanks to your 'ephiphany'. Could you blame me for suspecting you after you do stuff like that?
    We understand how dangerous a mask can be. We all become what we pretend to be. We all wear masks, and the time comes when we cannot remove them without removing some of our own skin.

    Aaron Specter
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    Laurentus
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  • Count of Highever
  • I won't dance around it. Yes, it certainly should look odd at first, but this is not an inconsistency, as I actually explained why I suddenly suspected Ater of being a wolf. Far better than he justified going from: "here are all the reasons I didn't suspect Laurentus," "...but on the other hand [with no clear progression of logic or evidence] I do suspect him, just because, you know..." That's the sense I got from that. However, seeing your reaction to my post, Aaron, perhaps I was a bit immature in interpreting it this way, as you'll see in the next paragraph of this post.

    You're also misquoting me with the ""I won't judge you" -> proceeds to judge me" quote. I explicitly said: "I won't make any judgments on your choice not to quote him, but it does make your argument look better than it actually is..." This indicates that I'm not judging your motive, as I can't know your motive. This is a comment on the post itself making your argument appear stronger, whether intentionally or not. Again, I won't judge your response to that part, because a misunderstanding of my intent could lead to defensive behaviour that would've been justified based on your interpretation of my intention. However tempted I would have been to use this defensive behaviour against you, it just isn't fair.

    However, and this is again something I won't dance around, I still find it troubling that you defend Ater's post, and then don't elaborate on the major short-coming thereof, namely the inconsistent leap from "show all reasons for Laurentus not being a werewolf," to "ergo, I suspect he's a werewolf." Care to explain how he logically made this leap? Because I honestly don't see the progression in logic here.

    With regards to you being hurt by my implication that your post was sneaky, I'm not completely buying your defence of "keeping the conversation going," as that is the type of behaviour befitting someone who hasn't already voted to lynch someone based on zero logical evidence, not someone who immediately voted to lynch me and then defend anyone who agrees with the assessment, even though the basis of that assessment is inherently flawed when considering that such tactics are highly improbable among wolves. This all while trying to demonise (werewolf-ise? :P) anyone who has come up for me - with logic - in the past, like you did with Sapphiron. I will concede that my tone could be considered hurtful, so I'll try to use friendlier and less accusatory language, but I'm not at all convinced by your defence.

    And here we arrive at the part that has given me the greatest amount of grief again, namely an alleged strategy to be supremely aggressive, and sneakily try to hind behind that when confronted about it after allegedly killing an active player - who happened to be the seer. I feel like I should distinguish now between the meanings of the words "plausible," "probable," and "feasible," to illustrate my way of thinking about this.

    First I'll answer the question that you've all been asking, but phrasing incorrectly, as seems by your thought-processes.

    "Is it not possible that a wolf could use this strategy and try to get away with it?" Of course it's possible. It's just highly moronic considering the small amount of people who try to do this, and the even smaller amount of people who would avoid suspicion by this act. This is aggravated further by the fact that a perfectly safe and more intelligent, subtle strategy is proven to work so much better. Along with the fact that a wolf's partner would almost certainly advise against this.

    Which leads me to the answer of the question you're all phrasing, but not asking correctly: "Is it not probable/feasible that a wolf could use this strategy and try to get away with it?"

    First let me define "feasible."

    feasible - /ˈfiːzɪb(ə)l/
    adjective
    1. possible and practical to do easily or conveniently.
    2. likely; probable.

    And suddenly the answer is a clear and resounding NO.

    Why chase down such an improbable target, when there are more probable targets to get rid of? And as research has shown, a werewolf is identified (in the absence of a seer) by looking at small inconsistencies and slip-ups in their argument.

    I also believe I've given clear reason for changing my vote to lynch aternox, so the argument that it is band-wagoning for Sapphiron's view is pretty baseless. The fact is someone needs to get lynched, and when choosing between Amalya and aternox, it is made easier when a post comes along where I can actually point to things and say: "This particular flaw here doesn't really make much sense," instead of a vague suspicion that Amalya is being way too persistent. It's the difference between telling a plausible story, and conducting an actual investigation.

    I'll end my post by addressing your last point. Did you yourself not say: "I think we're all allowed to change our minds?" Am I not allowed to do so when presented with new info and a new realisation?

    Man, that took forever. No regrets, whatever happens now. I've tried my best.
    In die donker ure skink net duiwels nog 'n dop, 
    Satan sit saam sy kinders en kyk hoe kom die son op. 
    • Count of Highever
    Laurentus
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    aternox
  • Village Drifter
  • However I must ask, aternox - what do you make of the relative silences of The Candy Lane and taulover, especially with regards to Sauron?


    I'd take Sauron at face value and accept his inactivity is due to him not being here. I think TCL being quiet would be because of the same reason. Taulover being quieter is not surprising as they are a new players and often new players don't say much in their first game while they learn how to play.

    It doesn't absolve any of them from potentially being a wolf, but it does mean that their inactivity isn't innately too suspicious to me.

    Of the three people up for vote, Laurentus is the one which has the highest chance of being a wolf from my perspective.

    Vote Lynch: Laurentus
    Visiting from the 10000 Islands!
    aternox
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