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The Omnibus Judicial Repeal
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Reon
  • Former Citizen
  • Quote
    Title
    1.This shall be titled the Omnibus Repeal of the Judicial Offices Act.

    Repealed Sections
    2. This shall repeal and reject Article III and Article 1, Sections 15 and 17 of the fundamental laws
    Does this need further explanation?
    Open for debate for 48 hours. The drill commences...
    Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are.
    Reon
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    • Follow the Truth, whoever that may be.
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    Joshua Bluteisen
  • Former Citizen
  • Evil Imperialist Overlord
  • No opposition. This is much needed.
    Vizier of the Osiris Fraternal Order
    Red Guard of the New Galactic Empire
    House Bluteisen -- Blood and Iron
    Axis of Evil on EsperNet & SwiftIRC || ygfbv on ColdFront
    <Zeorus> because we're not all smart like you, Axis
    <Zeorus> some of us have the privilege of being dumb ;_;
    Current NS positions and honours
    Patriarch of House Bluteisen
    Owner of the New Galactic Empire forum
    Osiran Atef
    Pharaoh-Emeritus of the Osiris Fraternal Order
    Legionnaire of the Sekhmet Legion (Inactive due to WA immobility)
    Red Guard of the New Galactic Empire
    Holder of the Scale of Ma'at
    Holder of the Seal of Vigilance
    Former NS positions
    Medjai Guardsman
    Vizier of the Osiris Fraternal Order
    Marshal General of the Sekhmet Legion
    Admin of the Osiris Fraternal Order
    Sepatarch of the 7th Sepatarchy of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris
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    Joshua Bluteisen
    • Evil Imperialist Overlord
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    Chanku
  • Citizen
  • I oppose, this isn't much needed. This in itself does nothing but remove the ability to be able to enforce our own laws. It removes the ability to even have a Criminal Code of Laws since now there is no way for us to Enforce it. What does this even seek to do? This in itself is idiotic and I STRONGLY OPPOSE this bill.
    See you later space cowboy.
    Old Signature

     
    Current Positions in Wintreath
    Matriarch of House Kaizer
    Speaker of the 29th Underhusen
    Advisor to the Riksråd
    Positions I've held
    Riksrad(1st Jarl of Information, 3rd Jarl of Foreign Affairs, 2nd Jarl of Defense)
    Member of the WHR
    Speaker of the Underhusen (3rd)
    Speaker Pro Tempore of the Underhusen (1st)
    Underhusen Member (1st-3rd)
    Member of the 5th Overhusen
    Chairman of the 5th Overhusen
    6th Underhusen
    Speaker of the 6th Underhusen
    Mandate Holder for Jarl of Defense
    Member of the 8th Storting (Underhusen)
    Royalty of Wintreath
    Ambassador for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
    Underhusen Terms I've been a part of
    1st Underhusen
    2nd Underhusen
    3rd Underhusen
    6th Underhusen
    8th Underhusen
    Overhusen Terms I've been a part of
    5th Overhusen
    Families I've been a part of
    Kaizer - Matriarch (REFORMED)
    Kestar - Child of Wintermoot (REMOVED)
    Chanku
    Reon
  • Former Citizen
  • This is the first step in the overall plan to fix the justice and move it's power to the monarch... This is in accordance with the steps set out in Denth's post last term.
    As soon as this passes we discuss how to write out the powers of the monarch.
    Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are.
    Reon
    • Posts: 2,089
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    • Follow the Truth, whoever that may be.
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    Chanku
  • Citizen
  • This is the first step in the overall plan to fix the justice and move it's power to the monarch... This is in accordance with the steps set out in Denth's post last term.
    As soon as this passes we discuss how to write out the powers of the monarch.
    Again what is wrong with our current system Reon? Denth, Axis, nor you have actually explained why this is necessary, which it isn't. Also this is horribly written because why not just have everything in one god-damned amendment?
    See you later space cowboy.
    Old Signature

     
    Current Positions in Wintreath
    Matriarch of House Kaizer
    Speaker of the 29th Underhusen
    Advisor to the Riksråd
    Positions I've held
    Riksrad(1st Jarl of Information, 3rd Jarl of Foreign Affairs, 2nd Jarl of Defense)
    Member of the WHR
    Speaker of the Underhusen (3rd)
    Speaker Pro Tempore of the Underhusen (1st)
    Underhusen Member (1st-3rd)
    Member of the 5th Overhusen
    Chairman of the 5th Overhusen
    6th Underhusen
    Speaker of the 6th Underhusen
    Mandate Holder for Jarl of Defense
    Member of the 8th Storting (Underhusen)
    Royalty of Wintreath
    Ambassador for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
    Underhusen Terms I've been a part of
    1st Underhusen
    2nd Underhusen
    3rd Underhusen
    6th Underhusen
    8th Underhusen
    Overhusen Terms I've been a part of
    5th Overhusen
    Families I've been a part of
    Kaizer - Matriarch (REFORMED)
    Kestar - Child of Wintermoot (REMOVED)
    Chanku
    Reon
  • Former Citizen
  • This system is unclean, even you are trying to amend and modify it. You see the solution as lending the power to more people, giving the system less equality, more chance for personal issues, at best a figurehead state, and more politics and debate in the region... Also making it more buy off able and more likely to be fallible.
    By lending the power to the monarch we make our system not only flexible but only singularly fallible. Any issue can be fixed at the drop of a hat. It is easy, it is simple, and, as we live in a state that is essentially an open monarchy as the king is also the nomad, more honest.
    Your solution is at best a flawed guise and costume to trick the populace into thinking that it has power. It leads to disagreements, upset feelings, and dissension.
    My solution is an honest look at the region and a move to a more realistic look at our existence in this region.

    I'm doing it in more than one legislation piece to acclimate the people and also to leave the second part more available to discussion. This "goddamned" resolution is the beginnings of a great change and as in all great changes not everything should happen at once.
    Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are.
    Reon
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    Reon
  • Former Citizen
  • As a note we have also ALL said what's wrong with our system before. I have written out these exact words before. Please do not try and bullshit me.
    Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are.
    Reon
    • Posts: 2,089
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    • Follow the Truth, whoever that may be.
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    Chanku
  • Citizen
  • This system is unclean, even you are trying to amend and modify it. You see the solution as lending the power to more people, giving the system less equality, more chance for personal issues, at best a figurehead state, and more politics and debate in the region... Also making it more buy off able and more likely to be fallible.
    And giving to the monarch will make it even more susceptible to this. Giving it to the monarch means that it's only as good as the monarch, and there is no way for any corruption to be cleaned out as needed.
    Quote
    By lending the power to the monarch we make our system not only flexible but only singularly fallible. Any issue can be fixed at the drop of a hat.
    You are assuming cooperation of the monarch. If the monarch fails to cooperate or setups a corrupted system then it will not be fixed.
    Quote
    It is easy, it is simple, and, as we live in a state that is essentially an open monarchy as the king is also the nomad, more honest.
    ATM yes, legally however they are not the same people.
    Quote
    Your solution is at best a flawed guise and costume to trick the populace into thinking that it has power. It leads to disagreements, upset feelings, and dissension.
    My solution is an honest look at the region and a move to a more realistic look at our existence in this region.
    I am attempting to allow the Judges to not be lead by just one group of people. What I am doing is I am allowing the judges to be accountable to the people so if they are corrupt they can be dealt with easily, without having to attempt to get the monarch to cooperate.
    Quote
    I'm doing it in more than one legislation piece to acclimate the people and also to leave the second part more available to discussion. This "goddamned" resolution is the beginnings of a great change and as in all great changes not everything should happen at once.
    It is not a great change this change is a horrible one that should have never been attempted in the first fucking place.

    This amendment will strip the ability to enforce our own laws and give them to a person that is unaccountable to everyone but himself. If we get a corrupt monarch then the system will be corrupt and we will be unable to fix it. If we get a good one then great, however we can not guarantee future monarchs to be as reasonable as Wintermoot. This is why I am highly against giving this power to him, not because I don't trust him but because I don't trust the future. You can argue that this region wouldn't be able to exist without someone like Wintermoot, but we do not know if it would be possible in the first place because we only have had wintermoot.

    See you later space cowboy.
    Old Signature

     
    Current Positions in Wintreath
    Matriarch of House Kaizer
    Speaker of the 29th Underhusen
    Advisor to the Riksråd
    Positions I've held
    Riksrad(1st Jarl of Information, 3rd Jarl of Foreign Affairs, 2nd Jarl of Defense)
    Member of the WHR
    Speaker of the Underhusen (3rd)
    Speaker Pro Tempore of the Underhusen (1st)
    Underhusen Member (1st-3rd)
    Member of the 5th Overhusen
    Chairman of the 5th Overhusen
    6th Underhusen
    Speaker of the 6th Underhusen
    Mandate Holder for Jarl of Defense
    Member of the 8th Storting (Underhusen)
    Royalty of Wintreath
    Ambassador for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
    Underhusen Terms I've been a part of
    1st Underhusen
    2nd Underhusen
    3rd Underhusen
    6th Underhusen
    8th Underhusen
    Overhusen Terms I've been a part of
    5th Overhusen
    Families I've been a part of
    Kaizer - Matriarch (REFORMED)
    Kestar - Child of Wintermoot (REMOVED)
    Chanku
    Reon
  • Former Citizen
  • Your entire argument assumes that the monarch can or will change. All of it. Literally the entire thing is held up by that one tiny assumption. If I might posit a different notion and one I have already carefully described to you: There is no and will not be a Wintreath without Wintermoot. The monarch already has an extraordinary wealth of power. And I really do mean quite amazing... He can already singularly remove any person he wishes from the forums with nothing but a just because in the reason box... He can make some very widespread and open ended statements that can change most everything, if he wants, and are law, more or less... Giving him the power of the courts changes basically nothing... And the Nomad and Monarch titles are unlikely to become separated besides... Even in the event that Wintermoot does leave it's unlikely he'll find two people he trusts that much.

    No Chanku, I hate to say it but I think you are very confused... The amount of work and devotion Wintermoot puts into this region as well as the amount of trust we all put in him means that there CANNOT be a Wintreath without a Wintermoot. This is the region you live in and the existence you accepted. Do with that reality what you will.
    Also arguing low case draw for people and human related positions in Nationstates is a very poor argument. We will always have an undersized case study. ALWAYS. Because this shit doesn't last several hundred years like a real government.
    Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are.
    Reon
    • Posts: 2,089
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    Chanku
  • Citizen
  • Reon honestly I find your claims ridiculous. Wintreath can exist without Wintermoot, although it will require someone equally as dedicated to Wintreath as him at least at this time. However we must keep in mind that circumstances change. Furthermore I reject the notion that there is no Wintreath without Wintermoot; while I do also acknowledge the fact that he has the power to remove anyone from the forums, he has that ability because he holds both the Administrative and Monarch position. Furthermore it is unknown if he will choose someone to hold the root administrative account that won't be the next monarch, and we can not know until it happens.

    Also I find your claims of giving the Monarch the power because Wintermoot has those ability to remove someone is in itself bad logic built on the foundation that because someone holds two legally separate positions the lesser position (in this case the Monarch) should have the power, which in itself is a dangerous line of thinking.

    Futhermore your statement that I am even trying to modify it is a parallel that is not comparable to what you are trying to do. My modification is fixing a system that was written badly when passed (although I do blame myself for failing to have suggested fixes at first and catching the fact that it was setup badly, although I do blame that partially on my inexperience at the time). Furthermore your system is unclean as well and is more prone to being bought off than you think.
    By giving power to the monarch, whom has already stated he will give it to another individual, there is a single point of error, the Monarch and/or the appointed designee. Even if there is a set procedure it can be amended for any case and thus the designee can create an unfair trial due to personal issues with someone if they so desire. The solution to prevent that would be to setup a procedure by the Storting, but no bill legislating the Executive would ever pass.

    Furthermore your design goes against anything that a logical engineer or designer would do. You never design a system to have only one point where it can fail. Doing so will mean that it will break as soon as that single point does. Hell your system itself makes it to where only one person is needed to be bought off. In our current system it requires at least three people, and even then the Monarch can order a retrial or an appeal can occur. Meaning that it can be even more people that one would need to buy off.

    Finally I also must respond with the fact that should the system ever become corrupt then it would be unable to be fixed in any capacity, until the Monarch wishes, that is assuming the monarch him/herself does not become corrupt; which is to say wishful thinking at possibly the best which is why the saying "power corrupts" exists, because it does. Do I think that Wintermoot will become corrupt once he gets the power, I do doubt it. However once again another Monarch could easily become corrupt.

    Finally the period for debate has passed. However I motion to extend debate for another four days.

    Edit: One final point, your statement:
    Quote
    This is in accordance with the steps set out in Denth's post last term.
    is in itself, not a valid argument due to the fact that I have always opposed Denth's proposal since he posted it and have always been against it.
    « Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 12:42:52 AM by Chanku »
    See you later space cowboy.
    Old Signature

     
    Current Positions in Wintreath
    Matriarch of House Kaizer
    Speaker of the 29th Underhusen
    Advisor to the Riksråd
    Positions I've held
    Riksrad(1st Jarl of Information, 3rd Jarl of Foreign Affairs, 2nd Jarl of Defense)
    Member of the WHR
    Speaker of the Underhusen (3rd)
    Speaker Pro Tempore of the Underhusen (1st)
    Underhusen Member (1st-3rd)
    Member of the 5th Overhusen
    Chairman of the 5th Overhusen
    6th Underhusen
    Speaker of the 6th Underhusen
    Mandate Holder for Jarl of Defense
    Member of the 8th Storting (Underhusen)
    Royalty of Wintreath
    Ambassador for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
    Underhusen Terms I've been a part of
    1st Underhusen
    2nd Underhusen
    3rd Underhusen
    6th Underhusen
    8th Underhusen
    Overhusen Terms I've been a part of
    5th Overhusen
    Families I've been a part of
    Kaizer - Matriarch (REFORMED)
    Kestar - Child of Wintermoot (REMOVED)
    Chanku
    Reon
  • Former Citizen
  • I was not saying that you should agree with it because it was Denth's plan. I was saying it was set out like this because it was set out like this in Denth's plan.
    Our argument is over a moot point. I will never convince you and it is unlikely that you will convince me that a strange democratic judicial system makes sense in a fictional monarchy.
    I leave this argument to the other members of the Underhusen and the Overhusen. You are more stress than I have to give to convince you.
    I motion to extend debate by 48 hours.
    Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are.
    Reon
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    Reon
  • Former Citizen
  • Alright I suppose I change my motion to a motion to vote as none of the other Skrifa look like they want to talk about this...
    « Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 06:48:36 AM by Reon »
    Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are.
    Reon
    • Posts: 2,089
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    Joshua Bluteisen
  • Former Citizen
  • Evil Imperialist Overlord
  • I second the motion to vote.
    Vizier of the Osiris Fraternal Order
    Red Guard of the New Galactic Empire
    House Bluteisen -- Blood and Iron
    Axis of Evil on EsperNet & SwiftIRC || ygfbv on ColdFront
    <Zeorus> because we're not all smart like you, Axis
    <Zeorus> some of us have the privilege of being dumb ;_;
    Current NS positions and honours
    Patriarch of House Bluteisen
    Owner of the New Galactic Empire forum
    Osiran Atef
    Pharaoh-Emeritus of the Osiris Fraternal Order
    Legionnaire of the Sekhmet Legion (Inactive due to WA immobility)
    Red Guard of the New Galactic Empire
    Holder of the Scale of Ma'at
    Holder of the Seal of Vigilance
    Former NS positions
    Medjai Guardsman
    Vizier of the Osiris Fraternal Order
    Marshal General of the Sekhmet Legion
    Admin of the Osiris Fraternal Order
    Sepatarch of the 7th Sepatarchy of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris
    Acting-Pharaoh of the Osiris Fraternal Order
    Joshua Bluteisen
    • Evil Imperialist Overlord
    • Posts: 236
    • Karma: 57
    • Former Citizen
    • Pronouns
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      Familial House
      Bluteisen
      Wintreath Nation
      Logged
    Chanku
  • Citizen
  • Motion Carried.
    See you later space cowboy.
    Old Signature

     
    Current Positions in Wintreath
    Matriarch of House Kaizer
    Speaker of the 29th Underhusen
    Advisor to the Riksråd
    Positions I've held
    Riksrad(1st Jarl of Information, 3rd Jarl of Foreign Affairs, 2nd Jarl of Defense)
    Member of the WHR
    Speaker of the Underhusen (3rd)
    Speaker Pro Tempore of the Underhusen (1st)
    Underhusen Member (1st-3rd)
    Member of the 5th Overhusen
    Chairman of the 5th Overhusen
    6th Underhusen
    Speaker of the 6th Underhusen
    Mandate Holder for Jarl of Defense
    Member of the 8th Storting (Underhusen)
    Royalty of Wintreath
    Ambassador for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
    Underhusen Terms I've been a part of
    1st Underhusen
    2nd Underhusen
    3rd Underhusen
    6th Underhusen
    8th Underhusen
    Overhusen Terms I've been a part of
    5th Overhusen
    Families I've been a part of
    Kaizer - Matriarch (REFORMED)
    Kestar - Child of Wintermoot (REMOVED)
    Chanku
     
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