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The proper way to declare someone a PnG would most likely be a bill that'd be voted on by both chambers.

Common law (if this is even a thing in Wintreath) gives the Monarch the authority to do the same, in my eyes.

Due Process, Skrifa PB, means access to courts and ensuring a fair, impartial and speedy trial. 

I believe that the Storting does have the power to enable a statutory restriction.

In Osiris, when I got PNG'd, the legislature voted on each person, so I suppose we can do it this way here. 

I just believe in everyone's fair shake, and the law should be amended to reflect that?

Actually, Osiris banned myself via a PNG vote, and several others.  Other places have also banned me PNG through an administrative ban.

My point is, I believe there should still be some form of due process Mr Speaker.

Following the procedure agreed to by the administrative team, the administrative team has decided to impose bans on the following individuals:

Govindia: As his persona non grata declaration notes, Govindia has engaged in harassment of other NationStates players. This harassment has crossed the line into out-of-character territory and in such a way that his presence cannot be tolerated in our off-site community, a decision that has been made by many other NationStates off-site communities as well. We wish to emphasize that this ban will remain permanently in place, unless revisited by the administrative team, without regard for any future reversal of his persona non grata status. He is banned for out-of-character matters that are beyond the purview of our in-character government.

Source

Again, I wish to also emphasize that the rights specified in the Fundamental Laws are reserved for Citizens, and that by definition a Citizen cannot be declared persona non grata. There's no need and no legal basis to open our region and legal systems to people that are not Citizens, and doing so will only guarantee that the 'trials' brought on by those who have been declared PnG will become circus for their own amusement, as well as the amusement of those that want to take shots at our region.

What other reason would someone that's not a Citizen and isn't involved in the region otherwise have?

There's no need and no legal basis to open our region and legal systems to people that are not Citizens, and doing so will only guarantee that the 'trials' brought on by those who have been declared PnG will become circus for their own amusement, as well as the amusement of those that want to take shots at our region.

What other reason would someone that's not a Citizen and isn't involved in the region otherwise have?

"no legal basis"

What about treating everyone fairly as a human being?   Everyone deserves due process here.  What about say, diplomats? 

How about we stop focusing on me and talk about the law, which I've been trying to do with my fellow Skrifa?

Are you seriously suggesting that someone such as Cormac, Venico, or Koth...people who have never been in this region, never been involved in it, and were declared PnG for their actions in overthrowing a legitimate government should have the right to come here and appeal?

Are you seriously suggesting that Tyler Kazakov, who was a diplomat here at one time, should have the right to appeal his status for his harassment of people in the region and then recruiting from the region on behalf of the region he was a diplomat of?

I for one find that outrageous.

I'm focusing on you because when asked for an example of potential abuse, you said you were speaking "from also my personal experiences in NS -_-", thus making yourself the focus of this debate. Logically, having done so, you should be able to defend your points when I poke holes in your example, which in this case is yourself. You can't bring yourself up as an example of why this is needed and then tell people not to focus on you.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone such as Cormac, Venico, or Koth...people who have never been in this region, never been involved in it, and were declared PnG for their actions in overthrowing a legitimate government should have the right to come here and appeal?

Are you seriously suggesting that Tyler Kazakov, who was a diplomat here at one time, should have the right to appeal his status for his harassment of people in the region and then recruiting from the region on behalf of the region he was a diplomat of?

I for one find that outrageous.

I'm focusing on you because when asked for an example of potential abuse, you said you were speaking "from also my personal experiences in NS -_-", thus making yourself the focus of this debate. Logically, having done so, you should be able to defend your points when I poke holes in your example, which in this case is yourself. You can't bring yourself up as an example of why this is needed and then tell people not to focus on you.

Point of Order Mr. Speaker. 

No one asked the Monarch to post here and now some of his retorts are bordering on personal attack.

I find it outrageous that His Majesty thinks people don't have human rights.

How many other people commit coups in other regions that you didn't ban ?  What about Biyah, or members of the Empire who tried to coup Osiris and TEP earlier?  Or how about Milograd, who couped TSP and banned people who objected, forcing TSP to create a new forum?  Oh wait, you made him an ADMIN.

I don't have much evidence on Tyler's actions here in this region, only elsewhere. 

And yeah people banned me, but people found loopholes in their systems to ban me without due process.  It doesn't matter it was still an administrative ban or what not.  I don't want to see people lose due process rights like I did. 

They can be put on special trial masks if need be with restrictions in place.  I don't see why people can't be given their fair shake when we claim to supposedly give everyone an equal chance.

The monarch has a standing invitation to speak before the Underhusen, so I can't stop him from talking. This discussion is getting a teeny tiny bit of topic though, so try to keep it on topic, you two.

12. The Speaker of the Assembly shall have the power to invite any citizen to speak before the Underhusen for any duration that he or she deems necessary during the term.
(a) All members of the Royal Family shall have a standing invitation to speak before the Underhusen.

I want to know specifically where I supposedly made "retorts bordering on personal attacks", since nothing in my post says anything at all about you, other than the example you made when asked for a reason why we need such a provision. I have a specific reason for requesting this, and it's not an irrelevant request.

Are you seriously suggesting that being able to post on an internet forum is a 'human right'?

You have apparently completely missed my entire point, which was that administrative bans are outside the purview of the regional government. Thus, even if this trial prevision for PnG declarations had been on their books, it wouldn't have mattered in your case, whether it was justified or not. There's absolutely nothing stopping me from declaring you a security or community threat and banning you as has happened in many other regions, and this provision wouldn't change that. I'm trying to point out that this wouldn't have done you any good in those regions, Gov. All you can do is trust that the people with the power won't abuse it.

Wintreath didn't exist when those coups happened, and in the case of Osiris I wasn't even playing NationStates yet. I'll point out that I did revoke the PnG declaration made against Milograd for his role in the TSP coup when I was President of Spiritus. I believe that PnG declarations should be revoked when circumstances are met, but obviously I don't believe that to be the case for any of the individuals we have declared PnG here. However, that should be a decision made by the body that made the declaration in the first place, in accordance with regional and community policies.

How would a trial work even? A PnG declaration is not a criminal charge that can be found to be true or false. Trials are based on law, but PnG declarations are subjective and aren't based in law. How can Wintrean law even be applied to someone who isn't in the region? It would boil down to someone else agreeing or not agreeing that a non-Citizen 'should' not be welcome, and that's not really a trial at all.

I want to know specifically where I supposedly made "retorts bordering on personal attacks", since nothing in my post says anything at all about you, other than the example you made when asked for a reason why we need such a provision. I have a specific reason for requesting this, and it's not an irrelevant request.

The way they come off, sure sound a bit personal.  You tend to be sensitive to criticism and get really defensive at times.

Are you seriously suggesting that being able to post on an internet forum is a 'human right'?

I never implied anything.  People in NS need to understand we're all human beings, and that this is a game, and part of the concept of "good sportsmanship" in a "game" is for people to be respectful and civil to each other.  The amount of disrespect I have seen to others and myself is uncalled for and unacceptable.  I never excused anyone's behaviour you mentioned either, so don't put words in my mouth.

You have apparently completely missed my entire point, which was that administrative bans are outside the purview of the regional government. Thus, even if this trial prevision for PnG declarations had been on their books, it wouldn't have mattered in your case, whether it was justified or not. There's absolutely nothing stopping me from declaring you a security or community threat and banning you as has happened in many other regions, and this provision wouldn't change that. I'm trying to point out that this wouldn't have done you any good in those regions, Gov. All you can do is trust that the people with the power won't abuse it.

Blind faith and trust in someone is foolhardy and no one should ever place that trust in anyone.  I've trusted people like that and well it didn't help me.  Placed trust in Tim.  Got banned from Spiritus anyway without trial for bullshit reasons, claiming that bans from other ZB forums cross over, when it doesn't, months after he invited me to join.  So yeah, that's why I consider it potential for abuse.  What happened to me can happen to anyone.

How would a trial work even? A PnG declaration is not a criminal charge that can be found to be true or false. Trials are based on law, but PnG declarations are subjective and aren't based in law. How can Wintrean law even be applied to someone who isn't in the region? It would boil down to someone else agreeing or not agreeing that a non-Citizen 'should' not be welcome, and that's not really a trial at all.

If it's to be debated in chambers of law, then have it done there.  The person under review be allowed to make a statement, answer questions via TG, then have it debated and voted on by both houses here.  If the vote passes in both houses, they're PNG.  At least they get their voice heard.  That's all I ask.

Your devotion to mercy is admirable, Skrifa Govindia.  However, once a person is declared PNG, civility and good sportsmanship have long ago been thrown out the window.  These people (declared PNG) do not deserve more rights than we give our own CITIZENS.

We also do not have the jurisdiction to try non-citizens in our regional court - or in any court we might imagine up, unless it comes through some interregional assembly that has broader jurisdiction.  It would be impossible to summon the individual to court.  It would require a person that we're considering declaring PNG make an account on our regional forums and post here, which I find ridiculous. 

Your devotion to mercy is admirable, Skrifa Govindia.  However, once a person is declared PNG, civility and good sportsmanship have long ago been thrown out the window.  These people (declared PNG) do not deserve more rights than we give our own CITIZENS.

We also do not have the jurisdiction to try non-citizens in our regional court - or in any court we might imagine up, unless it comes through some interregional assembly that has broader jurisdiction.  It would be impossible to summon the individual to court.  It would require a person that we're considering declaring PNG make an account on our regional forums and post here, which I find ridiculous.

Actually it wouldn't.  I did say they could be TG'ed.  There are ways to communicate with the individual that don't require forum registration.

The way they come off, sure sound a bit personal.  You tend to be sensitive to criticism and get really defensive at times.

Please do not accuse people of flaming or personally attacking you unless you have specific instances to show and plan to report it to administration. I've seen you do it on three separate instances over the past few days, and it's not acceptable behaviour. I'm saying this as a forum administrator and founder.

I never implied anything.  People in NS need to understand we're all human beings, and that this is a game, and part of the concept of "good sportsmanship" in a "game" is for people to be respectful and civil to each other.  The amount of disrespect I have seen to others and myself is uncalled for and unacceptable.  I never excused anyone's behaviour you mentioned either, so don't put words in my mouth.

I fail to see what being respectful and civil has to do with a PnG declaration, particularly when I'm not aware of a case where a PnG declaration has been handled disrespectfully. I never said you implied anything either. I simply asked if you felt posting on an internet forum was a human right, because you brought that argument up.

Please point out where I "put words in your mouth".

Blind faith and trust in someone is foolhardy and no one should ever place that trust in anyone.  I've trusted people like that and well it didn't help me.  Placed trust in Tim.  Got banned from Spiritus anyway without trial for bullshit reasons, claiming that bans from other ZB forums cross over, when it doesn't, months after he invited me to join.  So yeah, that's why I consider it potential for abuse.  What happened to me can happen to anyone.

Again, you seem to have missed my point. Tim didn't declare you persona non grata, in fact he doesn't even have that authority at the moment. He administratively banned you, meaning you would not have been entitled to appeal even if Spiritan law called for people declared PnG to be able to do so. Your proposal would have no effect on such a situation, because in no region can you legislate the regional founder.

At the end of the day, if you don't trust the founder of a region to that extent, you shouldn't join or be part of their region.

If it's to be debated in chambers of law, then have it done there.  The person under review be allowed to make a statement, answer questions via TG, then have it debated and voted on by both houses here.  If the vote passes in both houses, they're PNG.  At least they get their voice heard.  That's all I ask.

You seem to have not accounted for the fact that the Storting itself could declare someone PnG. Are you stating that the Storting should hear appeals of its own decisions? Again, there's no legal basis or functional need for such a system, and it would not grant any protections against the 'abuses' you have held up as examples owing to their not being government bans. I just think this would be a disaster that would be obvious the first time someone used these proceedings to troll and poke at the region for shits and giggles.

Your devotion to mercy is admirable, Skrifa Govindia.  However, once a person is declared PNG, civility and good sportsmanship have long ago been thrown out the window.  These people (declared PNG) do not deserve more rights than we give our own CITIZENS.

We also do not have the jurisdiction to try non-citizens in our regional court - or in any court we might imagine up, unless it comes through some interregional assembly that has broader jurisdiction.  It would be impossible to summon the individual to court.  It would require a person that we're considering declaring PNG make an account on our regional forums and post here, which I find ridiculous.

Actually it wouldn't.  I did say they could be TG'ed.  There are ways to communicate with the individual that don't require forum registration.

1. The court doesn't have authority to rule on non-citizens
2. Persona non Grata declarations are not a judicial action
3. Those declared Persona non Grata are not entitled to civil rights in the region declaring them such

All these points seem to have flown right over your head.

I fail to see what being respectful and civil has to do with a PnG declaration, particularly when I'm not aware of a case where a PnG declaration has been handled disrespectfully. I never said you implied anything either. I simply asked if you felt posting on an internet forum was a human right, because you brought that argument up.

"posting on an internet forum was a human right" <---- your words, not mine.  Read my words again, carefully.

Again, you seem to have missed my point. Tim didn't declare you persona non grata, in fact he doesn't even have that authority at the moment. He administratively banned you, meaning you would not have been entitled to appeal even if Spiritan law called for people declared PnG to be able to do so. Your proposal would have no effect on such a situation, because in no region can you legislate the regional founder.

At the end of the day, if you don't trust the founder of a region to that extent, you shouldn't join or be part of their region.

I actually did have the ability to appeal.  However, that's a separate matter not related here.

People can place trust in founders and executives, but people shouldn't blindly trust others or put blind trust in their governments.  People shouldn't be lemmings.

You seem to have not accounted for the fact that the Storting itself could declare someone PnG. Are you stating that the Storting should hear appeals of its own decisions? Again, there's no legal basis or functional need for such a system, and it would not grant any protections against the 'abuses' you have held up as examples owing to their not being government bans. I just think this would be a disaster that would be obvious the first time someone used these proceedings to troll and poke at the region for shits and giggles.

Why not?  You seem to have this notion that decisions shouldn't be questioned. They should be questioned.  Again, it goes back to what I said.  People shouldn't blindly trust someone.  There is always a functional need for a judicial system.  Just because you may not like it doesn't mean it would be useful for the region. 

Also, you are speculating heavily there on the notion that someone would use said proceedings to troll and poke at the region, without having any basis to do so.  That's conjecture.

1. The court doesn't have authority to rule on non-citizens
2. Persona non Grata declarations are not a judicial action
3. Those declared Persona non Grata are not entitled to civil rights in the region declaring them such

All these points seem to have flown right over your head.

1. We don't have a functioning court system, which Wintermoot doesn't seem to want? 
2 and 3. How is then the region entitled to declare someone PNG without a right to contest such a declaration? 

They haven't flown over my head at all, Skrifa Point Breeze.