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No-o, the Storting just decides by majority to accept a case. I thought that was implicit.

It isn't actually written down anywhere. There are no official rules for how to vote in laws, how to accept cases, how to declare wars, how to strip citizenship, or another one...
There are no official rules and when there aren't official rules it explicitly says that the speaker gets to decide...

Why would a transient Judiciary need to vote in laws or declare war when such things are the purview of the legislature? Our Judicial system was designed to solely exist based on cases, and only comes into being when a case is put forward. Up until such time there's no point in having one as they'd be sitting on a court with nothing to do. Stripping citizenship at the time of the Act's introduction was solely the right of the Monarch. I'd suggest you read the thread I posted.

I am speaking against the system and saying that your judiciary setup is a good one, Weiss...
You misunderstand.

A good one for its intents and purposes... I personally support a Monarch oriented case system.
Power to the people? Sounds destructive.

As said, in the real world, this type of system would be absolutely necessary, except for the part about 3 judges, and their one-month limitation. But this isn't the real world. It shouldn't have to be so complex to get things done. I think everyone's reluctance to get near this system speaks for itself.

Three judges = inter-case checks on bias.
Month term limit = more something to allow for a fresh look on a drawn-out case than any design to limit a Judge's power. What case would take longer than a month anyway? Hardly any. So no worries.

Anyway lets get back on topic.

With all due respect, I don't think all the judicial system debate is necessary for the topic at hand...both the judicial and the revocation act route are valid and legal. As the person that is advancing the proposal, Pengu should decide which route he wants to go, write up the appropriate Act or complaint, and introduce it to the Underhusen...then let the chips fall where they may.

My apologies for the delay.  I've been a bit busy with RL matters and work.  I will respond to this complaint in detail.

This is not something I do with ease, as I think most who come on here deserve a chance.  However, I gave Gov countless warnings to leave me alone, and he refuses to stop.  And so I would like to present a case against Govindia for his continued harassment against me.

You have continued to talk to me on IRC and elsewhere, you explicitly did not tell me to stop talking to you at all.  You are also providing a one sided version of the story here, which I will respond to.

In IRC on the previous night, I came in having a bad day, and was talking to another member about it.  He came in and interjected with talking about his cat, which I was alright with since I understand the feeling of losing a pet.  However, being as I was having my own issues that day, I wasn't in the mood to talk about it.  He queried me, said my name in the chat a couple of times, and used Zaphyr to get my attention just so that I would look at a picture and respond sympathetic to him (which I'll note he practically told every member that popped in to look at the same picture).  Thank you to Mooty for giving me the logs:

IRC is not under Wintreath jurisdiction, so this evidence is inadmissible as jurisdiction of Wintreath territory only covers the forum, the NS site, and the NS region (WFE and RMB).  IRC does not fall under legal jurisdiction of Wintreath, and most, if not all active NS regions have this same stance.

Here Pengu shows that NOT ONCE that he explained to me what was going on.  I did not understand at the time he was in a bad mood.  He did not say anything to me.  He deliberately ignores me, in a passive-aggressive manner, instead of giving me a simple response of "I'm not in the mood to talk" or "I can't talk to you right now, maybe later."  Some form of direct communication that acknowledged that I had attempted to speak to him, instead of rudely ignoring me in a passive manner.  He did not communicate, and that is HIS FAULT, not mine.  I cannot be blamed for someone who cannot communicate clearly and directly with me.

That in itself resorted to this:
Evidence #2 of harassment

Which you'll see that I repeatedly had asked him to stop, cited that I've asked him before in the past to stop doing similar things, and asked him to cease the argument in the thread (as it was getting off topic), and move it to PM.  He did not, and proceeded to continue.  He only stopped after other members including Wintermoot had said something to him about it.  Eventually, he DID move it to PM, which resorted to this:

I expressed how I felt.  I felt hurt that you ignored me when I reached out to you.  I trusted that you would actually care about how I feel.  I have feelings too, and they matter as much as yours or anyone else's in this region, and this complaint against me is because your feelings are being challenged by mine, because I felt hurt because you disrespected me with your passive aggressive behaviour and your poor communication.  If this was ANYONE else in the region, you'd would not repeat same behaviour.  Regardless of how you feel about me, you had no right to disrespect me.

You have no right, no one does in this region, to punish someone or myself, for expressing their feelings.  I express how I was hurt, and you have a "sorry not sorry" response which shows you claim to care how I feel, but you don't because you continue to defend your rude behaviour without admitting you were wrong to behave that way.  You could have handled it better, and should have.

PM to myself and Wintermoot

And once again, you and everyone else miss the whole point of why I was upset.

Before you say "I do understand", you clearly don't because you're justifying Pengu's inappropriate behaviour.

Pay attention and read every word I say carefully.

I was upset, and I wanted someone to talk to.  I thought I could talk to Pengu because I TRUSTED him to actually care about how I feel.

Yes, I also have feelings too.

While it was evident that Pengu was worried about the situation with his friend's dog, it was not clear to me that A. he was having a bad day, or B. he was upset overall at the day.  Not everyone reads into everything as clearly as you all may, and it wasn't clear to me.

In any event, if Pengu didn't want to speak to me, or was not ABLE to speak to me, for the above reason, he should have had the logical, reasonable, courtesy to speak to me to tell me he was not able to speak to me, or at the very least, acknowledge that I was trying to talk to him..   I can't read his mind, and passive-aggressive behaviour does not work for me, and you all should realise by now that DIRECT communication works with me.

That means that instead of ignoring me and not responding, he should have done this:

Pengu: Hey, I saw what you said above Gov, when I'm a bit more calm I can talk to you about it, ok?

OR

Pengu: Hey, I saw what you said, but I am not able to speak to you right now because I'm not in a great mood right now.

OR something to those effects.

I would have accepted those type of responses because those were DIRECT communicative responses, and they were showing that he ACKNOWLEDGED what I said.  Proper polite etiquiette.  It's about reasonable common courtesy.  If he had said that, I would have calmed a bit more down and spoke to someone else who actually CARED about how I felt.

If people actually cared about how I felt, they would have said something reasonable about the post I made on the previous page without justifying or defending Pengu's unreasonable actions.  I am upset about how I was feeling yesterday, and it was aggravated even further by the fact that I was deliberately ignored without even being given a reasonable courtesy of acknowledgment.

I'm sorry I wasn't aware of Pengu being upset and that I wasn't able to pick up on it.  If he communicated better, I would have responded better.

This is boiling down to a lack of communication here on his part, and neither of you can blame me for his unwillingness to even acknowledge I said something to him and his unwiillingness to communicate to me.

If Nox or anyone else reached out to him, he wouldn't have behaved this way.   

I have feelings too, just like you all, and THEY ALSO matter.  If people claim they understand how I felt, then they shouldn't have to keep on criticising me or defending Pengu's actions here.  My feelings matter as much as PEngu's feelings here.

My frustration here is in the fact that I am being blamed for someone else's lack of communication and unwillingness to give me any courtesy of an acknowledgment.  If someone else came to him about something they would not be treated like I was.

If you guys really understand where I am coming from, know this is what the issue is.  Communication.

Which came off as extraordinarily disrespectful considering how I had responded to him in the thread to him and had answered why I hadn't responded to him (and considering he had completely ignored my post in the thread that was above him, that in itself was disrespectful in saying that I wasn't considering his feelings considering he was doing the same).  Almost everything he was saying about me is something that equally could be said of him as well.

Do not ever lecture me about respect please.  If someone tried to get a hold of me, I would not rudely disrespect them.  I deal with people directly.  That's how I was raised.  I expect direct,  clear, and concise communication from people when I interact with them in a reasonable manner, not vagueness or passive-aggressiveness, which are poor methods of communication.

It's not disrespectful to call you out on your inappropriate behaviour.  I expressed how I felt you were treating me.

Also that was a PM, as others had suggested I PM you, which I did.  I did NOT give you consent to violate my privacy by publishing a PM conversation between you and I without my explicit consent.  It's good to see that drama is being exacerbated by only caring about your feelings and rights, and not others.

Now, I was willing to give him a shot, granted, even after all of that.  And then, this happened via Query several moments ago:

IRC Query

<Govindia>: hi? can we talk?
<Pengu>: What's up?
<Govindia>: Can we talk ?
<Govindia>: ?
<Govindia>: ?
<Pengu>: Sure, what's up?
<Pengu>: and sorry, I've been going between gaming and being on here, depending on how much discussion is happening.
<Govindia>: Ok, for starters, I'm separating the issues, the stuff in the PM, vs. the content of this: http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=3.msg33561#msg33561
<Govindia>: the PM, I need you to understand I was upset with your lack of direct communication.
<Govindia>: I always deal in direct communication. Anything else to me is either ignorant or disrespectful
<Pengu>: :\
<Govindia>: I am speaking to you respectfully.
<Pengu>: I've gone over with it with you before on the thread and in the chat. When it's something you constantly pester me about with queries, saying my name 10+ times, and using Zaphyr to get my attention, then I ignore it because I hate being pushed like that.
<Govindia>: The context of the post, that I linked above, i would like you to respond without referring to our argument. The argument I am resolving, or hope to resolve, with you privately be it via PM and/or here .
<Govindia>: Pengu, you should have responded and communicated to me rather than just being passive at.
<Pengu>: I don't care how you think I should respond.
<Pengu>: I honestly don't.
<Govindia>: There is no harm in responding directly when someone is trying to get a hold of you.
<Govindia>: Had you communicated better, this issue would not have happened.
<Pengu>: Now please drop the issue. What's done is done, and continually harassing me about how I should go about it is just pointless.
<Govindia>: I want you to acknowledge that you were wrong in how you miscommunicated.
<Govindia>: You're not free from blame on this.
<Pengu>: I'm not acknowledging shit.
<Pengu>: Because you're not acknowledging that you won't leave me the fuck alone when I've respectfully asked you to.
<Govindia>: Do you not care about how others feel? Why is it only your feelings matter?
<Pengu>: I could ask you the same thing.
<Govindia>: My feelings matter as much as yours and that's fact.
<Pengu>: Gove.
<Pengu>: Gov*
<Pengu>: Last warning.
<Pengu>: Stop pestering me, and drop it.
<Govindia>: Are you going to respond to the post separately or no?
<Pengu>: I told you, I'm not responding to shit.
<Pengu>: Because I've already responded.
<Govindia>: and I'm not pestering you, I'm trying to resolve an issue with you.
<Pengu>: Countless times.
<Govindia>: no you didn't.
<Pengu>: ...
<Govindia>: You defended your actions, you didn't really respond to it.
<Pengu>: I responded as I saw was the most respectful response to it.
<Govindia>: Your response was "Gov's feelings don't matter, only Pengu's and everyone else's."
<Pengu>: If you can't understand that, that's your own problem.
<Pengu>: Thank you for ignoring my response, and have a good day.
<Govindia>: Saying how you understand how I feel while trying to defend your poor communication skills is not showing you understand how others feel.
<Govindia>: So thank you for showing you don't care how I feel. I at least tried talking to you.
<Govindia>: Only Pengu matters, and Gov's feelings are never considered.

Again, IRC is not under Wintreath jurisdiction, as Wintreath legal laws only apply to the forum, and the NS site/RMB/WFE. 

Furthermore, if you didn't want to talk to me, you shouldn't have accepted my query.  I wanted to resolve it peaceably, you apparently wanted drama instead, hence why you started this post I imagine...  There were other ways you could have resolved it without dragging me through the wringer dude.

If I sound utterly pissed in that Query, it's because I am.  I have asked him many times to drop the issue and leave me alone, and he is failing to do so.  His continued harassing of me of the issue is getting completely out of hand, and I'm done with it.  I've given him a good number of chances to drop it and move on, and since he's failing to cease, I'm therefore filing a complaint.

Most of the time you were passive aggressive, and then when I attempt to speak to you about it, as opposed to publicly, and the issue here is your poor lack of communication.

This would not have happened had you communicated to me.   That's not a lot to ask for.  I cannot read your mind.  I did not understand you were in a bad mood or having a bad day.     You only seemed concerned about your friend's situation nothing it seemed like you were in a bad mood and didn't want to talk to me. 

I trusted you to be able to at least give me the courtesy to acknowledge at least how I felt, and that you either A. were not able to talk, or B. not willing to talk. 

You were capable of handling it better, and you did not.  Instead you're using me as a scapegoat to cover the fact that you communicated poorly with your passive behaviour. 

I may have possibly Asperger's Syndrome, and some high form of autism, I'm not fully sure yet.  However, when dealing with people like me, you need to respond in a direct manner, logically.  If there is an issue, you take aside then and there, instead of resort to humiliation an disrespect.   It takes longer for me to understand things compared to others, especially in person.  I can't read your mind and you needed to say something. 

I will respond in the other thread later today.  I have work in four hours and it's 230 AM here.

1. Again with placing all blame for your bad behaviour on Pengu. Granted, Pengu could have handled it better, but when someone is in a bad mood, that's not likely to happen, and sympathy for his own emotional state must be given if you want to receive any for yours. Any court would brand your behaviour as harassment, a criminal offence. Pengu's, while it could be considered ill-advised and rude, does not qualify as a criminal offence, so your argument that his behaviour justifies yours doesn't work either.

Then going off and baiting him publicly regarding the situation is not the answer, and it is incredibly hypocritical that you keep justifying your flaming and baiting behaviour in this way.

2. IRC is a tool used by the community, for the community. In what world does it not fall under Wintreath's jurisdiction? Let's pretend that this is the case (which it isn't), let me explain why this is a faulty statement with the following example. Let's say that you and live and work in the same neighbourhood, and while on vacation in another district which doesn't fall under the same jurisdiction, a situation like this takes place where you feel you're being ignored. You then come back to the community you share and attack Pengu publicly, as well as harassing him. Then it does become Wintreath's problem, and all the laws governing Wintreath becomes applicable. So even on that point your argument falls apart.

But that was a fiction. The reality is that of course our IRC feed falls under our jurisdiction, since one of us created it, and we all use it as a tool for communication in the community, about the community. You're now arguing law, instead of facts, and not doing a very good job of it.

1. Again with placing all blame for your bad behaviour on Pengu. Granted, Pengu could have handled it better, but when someone is in a bad mood, that's not likely to happen, and sympathy for his own emotional state must be given if you want to receive any for yours.

He should have handled it better period.  I am not responsible for his emotional state, and I am not responsible for his failure to communicate how he was feeling.  It was not clear to me how he was feeling, so he, nor anyone else indicated he was not able to speak to me. 

Any court would brand your behaviour as harassment, a criminal offence. Pengu's, while it could be considered ill-advised and rude, does not qualify as a criminal offence, so your argument that his behaviour justifies yours doesn't work either.

You generalise and assume.  This behaviour that Pengu is committing, this character defamation, would be considered moreso harassment than my personality conflict, and glad you ignored anything else I said.

Then going off and baiting him publicly regarding the situation is not the answer, and it is incredibly hypocritical that you keep justifying your flaming and baiting behaviour in this way.

There was no flaming nor baiting.  I do not bait anyone.  I suggest you get your facts before making prejudicial statements sir.  You don't know me, so you have no room to make any prejudiced statements. 

2. IRC is a tool used by the community, for the community. In what world does it not fall under Wintreath's jurisdiction? Let's pretend that this is the case (which it isn't), let me explain why this is a faulty statement with the following example. Let's say that you and live and work in the same neighbourhood, and while on vacation in another district which doesn't fall under the same jurisdiction, a situation like this takes place where you feel you're being ignored. You then come back to the community you share and attack Pengu publicly, as well as harassing him. Then it does become Wintreath's problem, and all the laws governing Wintreath becomes applicable. So even on that point your argument falls apart.

But that was a fiction. The reality is that of course our IRC feed falls under our jurisdiction, since one of us created it, and we all use it as a tool for communication in the community, about the community. You're now arguing law, instead of facts, and not doing a very good job of it.

In our world, just because it is created does not mean it legally falls under specific jurisdiction.  It has already been established through precedence that Wintreath legal jurisdiction applies only to this forum, the NS site, the WFE, and the RMB.  It has never applied to IRC.

Furthermore I suggest you educate yourself before making statements that do not show an understanding of Wintreath law.  It has been explicitly stated here: http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=1541#msg20872 by Wintermoot that IRC is not under Wintreath legal jurisdiction.

You should probably have read my clarification below, where I said a court can have a case but can't decide anything related to IRC. The Fundamental Laws and the statutory laws in under it are binding between Citizens of Wintreath without regard to where they are. It's certainly binding in Wintreath off-site properties...it's arguably even binding between Citizens when they're in other regions, since there's nothing saying it can't be. Specific to the off-site properties, a court cannot order the admins and sys-ops to do anything as they're under the jurisdiction of the founder, but they can try Citizens based on actions in those areas, or really anywhere.

For example, if a Citizen where to hack the IRC channel somehow, the ops could levy a punishment and the government could still also have a trial separately with punishments that are within their purview to decide, as hacking is not allowed under the code of laws.

Additionally, this is not a court case, but an Act to revoke Citizenship...revocation acts don't necessarily have to be justified with legal arguments like a court case would, just contain reasons that the Storting agrees with. Therefore arguments of jurisdictions are even less valid in this case.

I shall also state what I said in the other because it does seem pertinent here so:
Also, Wintermoot's word on things is not binding unless he's making a decree. He's not our best lawyer nor do we have any monarchal infallibility rules or expectations.
I do agree with his clarification however, it seems to be correct.