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Vox: Gen Z Does Not Dream of Labor
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Wintermoot
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  • Full Article: https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/22977663/gen-z-antiwork-capitalism

    This article goes into detail about how Gen Z is rejecting work as we know it...essentially, the idea that people should put their jobs above all else. On one end, this is taking the form of pushing for more work-life balance in their jobs. On the other, it's taking the form of quitting their jobs outright with nothing else lined up, feeling that their mental health is more important than making money. Of course, it's not entirely that simple...the article goes into detail on how employers have come to treat their employees as disposable, the lack of opportunity that previous generations had, and growing wealth inequality. It's a good read that I recommend.

    What particularly caught my attention was this portion: "Many have taken to declaring how they don't have dream jobs since they "don't dream of labor". This buzzy phrase, popularized on social media in the pandemic, rejects work as a basis for identity..." I recently watched the new Ken Burns documentary on Benjamin Franklin, which briefly mentioned his concern with this exact trend, which was growing in his time and has only accelerated in the centuries since. I don't want to go back through the 4-hour video to find it, but from what I remember he was specifically concerned about people putting what they have to do for their job over their humanity. Along with others, he advocated for policemen to quit rather than enforce unjust laws enacted from Britain, for example.

    It's inspiring to think we may be on the other side of such a long-running trend, where people are reasserting their roles as members of humanity over their roles as employees. Or maybe not. The article also mentions that this movement has yet to accomplish much beyond the internet, and notes that Gen Z participation in labor unions is still modest.

    So I guess that's the question. Is this a pandemic-fueled fad that will disappear once things get back to normal and people aren't as stressed and burned out? Or is this a real movement that will help change the role of work in our lives?
    3 people like this post: taulover, Svipjoth, Arenado


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  • Full Article: https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/22977663/gen-z-antiwork-capitalism

    This article goes into detail about how Gen Z is rejecting work as we know it...essentially, the idea that people should put their jobs above all else. On one end, this is taking the form of pushing for more work-life balance in their jobs. On the other, it's taking the form of quitting their jobs outright with nothing else lined up, feeling that their mental health is more important than making money. Of course, it's not entirely that simple...the article goes into detail on how employers have come to treat their employees as disposable, the lack of opportunity that previous generations had, and growing wealth inequality. It's a good read that I recommend.

    What particularly caught my attention was this portion: "Many have taken to declaring how they don't have dream jobs since they "don't dream of labor". This buzzy phrase, popularized on social media in the pandemic, rejects work as a basis for identity..." I recently watched the new Ken Burns documentary on Benjamin Franklin, which briefly mentioned his concern with this exact trend, which was growing in his time and has only accelerated in the centuries since. I don't want to go back through the 4-hour video to find it, but from what I remember he was specifically concerned about people putting what they have to do for their job over their humanity. Along with others, he advocated for policemen to quit rather than enforce unjust laws enacted from Britain, for example.

    It's inspiring to think we may be on the other side of such a long-running trend, where people are reasserting their roles as members of humanity over their roles as employees. Or maybe not. The article also mentions that this movement has yet to accomplish much beyond the internet, and notes that Gen Z participation in labor unions is still modest.

    So I guess that's the question. Is this a pandemic-fueled fad that will disappear once things get back to normal and people aren't as stressed and burned out? Or is this a real movement that will help change the role of work in our lives?
    As a person belonging to Generation Z, I could speak about my perspective on this phenomenon, at least from my perspective.

    The article was a very interesting read (Vox usually has pretty good journalism), but there are some points that I sort of disagree with or want to add onto. For me, having a holistic identity and lifestyle is everything. It's not optional, since imbalance means irritating my Generalized Anxiety Disorder. However, what I do for a living is incorporated in this identity; it is not my everything, but it is certainly something. I am privileged and blessed to have an internship history with a tech company that I really enjoy, with it offering not only decent benefits, but also a positive work culture and pleasant coworkers and superiors that I can (and have) spent time with outside of work hours. 

    As with everything else in life, all in moderation. I don't think that this "Anti-Work" campaign will be successful, primarily because it is not sustainable and stereotypes people of my generation as lazy and entitled.

    I think too that it has to do with mindset as well. For me, I treasure routine, schedule, and explicit purpose. To me, this means waking up early, having a slow breakfast and a morning stroll before working my 9-5 job. Then, when I come home, I have more self-care, from exercising and meditating to cleaning the house and taking care of my garden (this fantasy is all anticipatory, by the way, as I am still in college and living with roommates in an on-campus apartment). This campaign, in my opinion, is the epitome of trying to find peace in drastic action, rage fueling the wheel of change; it is the other extreme, no different than those that neglect all else in comparison to their career. To me, the pursuit of self-care is finding it in the everyday and being humbled with its small, but bountiful daily appearances.

    All this being said, that's my two cents. I'll end it here, cause I could go on and on.
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    Michi
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  • This is really nothing new that wasn't being pushed about how Millenials were lazy and entitled...when in reality we just want to be able to afford to provide for ourselves and survive like Gen X and the Boomer generations did on less, rather than any notion that we actually enjoy working 5 jobs.

    In reality, nobody actually "dreams" of labor, but we dream of being able to afford to do the things we enjoy (as well as just being able to afford things to live), and labor is unfortunately really the only means to that unless you're either incredibly savvy or started off lucky due to having somewhat affluent parents...or of course if you go the criminal route.  And if we're going to have to be doing labor just to even get by, we might as well have "dream jobs" that we enjoy to make that actual end goal even easier...let alone aspire for those high up dream jobs because they normally mean extra income.

    True, some folks may actually enjoy being a Psychologist/Psychiatrist or doctor or teacher or similar things of the like, but you're more likely to find that people enjoy those careers because they make a lot of money (well, minus teachers...but the flipside to that is that they get great health insurance benefits).  If anything, it's more likely that people just dream of those higher paying jobs so they can retire really quickly and just focus on themselves...so again it becomes more about being able to provide for yourself so you can do the things you love, rather than the job itself being anything you actually aspire for.

    Basically...it's about the money and the benefits and being able to retire versus the job itself.  I'd personally rather not work and just be able to focus on myself and not worry about finances.  However, that's not a realistic option since everything including just having a home with running water and electricity costs ridiculous amounts of money.  So unless an option comes along that makes it so I can afford those as well as being able to do things comes along without having to work (not counting Welfare since that's not a legit viable solution), work is really the only solution.  And if I'm going to work, I might as well have a career to aspire for that I actually enjoy.  If anything because health insurance is a thing, and paid insurance tends to be better than the barebones free Obamacare type that we have here in the US, and because retirement benefits are a thing...though it depresses me that 401Ks are becoming the norm since those are an absurdly awful type of "retirement" versus having a stable package that lasts your entire life when you retire.

    But yeah.  Nobody dreams of work.  We more dream about being able to do what we want without financial limitations, but having a career is just the means to that end.
    2 people like this post: taulover, BraveSirRobin
    « Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 03:48:53 AM by Michi »
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  • I don't know, I think at their heart most people want to feel useful, appreciated, and like they're making a difference, and that can translates into dreaming of labor. There was a time when not everyone, but a lot of people, at least took pride in their jobs and the impact that it had, and people want to feel like they've got some kind of purpose in life.

    I think the difference over the last few decades is how employees have come to be treated as disposable...companies claim to take pride in their employees, but most don't show it in their actions: low wage, low job security, low appreciation. Walmart has just in the last few years had the apparently revolutionary idea that they were losing more money in employee turnover than they'd lose just raising wages. But I don't think it's just about the money...wages don't mean much if you're being given shitty schedules that don't give you a chance to really take a break and rest and if you're not eligible for important things like health insurance.

    I think this is an important spoke in the movement to improve working conditions...it calls attention to bad working conditions that maybe 10 years ago most people would just sigh and resign themselves to. But I think a spoke that's just as important is the rise in entrepreneurship, where people want to work but also want to be in charge of their own destiny. And being an entrepreneur is hard work...there's a lot of risk and hustle culture where you end up taking on even more work than if you were an employee is a thing. But it shows that a good many people actually do want to work...they just want to be treated with dignity and have flexibility to work in a way that's right for them.


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    Michi
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  • I don't know, I think at their heart most people want to feel useful, appreciated, and like they're making a difference, and that can translates into dreaming of labor. There was a time when not everyone, but a lot of people, at least took pride in their jobs and the impact that it had, and people want to feel like they've got some kind of purpose in life.

    I think the difference over the last few decades is how employees have come to be treated as disposable...companies claim to take pride in their employees, but most don't show it in their actions: low wage, low job security, low appreciation. Walmart has just in the last few years had the apparently revolutionary idea that they were losing more money in employee turnover than they'd lose just raising wages. But I don't think it's just about the money...wages don't mean much if you're being given shitty schedules that don't give you a chance to really take a break and rest and if you're not eligible for important things like health insurance.

    I think this is an important spoke in the movement to improve working conditions...it calls attention to bad working conditions that maybe 10 years ago most people would just sigh and resign themselves to. But I think a spoke that's just as important is the rise in entrepreneurship, where people want to work but also want to be in charge of their own destiny. And being an entrepreneur is hard work...there's a lot of risk and hustle culture where you end up taking on even more work than if you were an employee is a thing. But it shows that a good many people actually do want to work...they just want to be treated with dignity and have flexibility to work in a way that's right for them.
    I feel like it's a bit more circular than that, though.

    In school, which is purely meant to prepare us for the workforce (even if it sometimes detours), we're taught to be competitive.  We're taught that we want good grades to be recognized, we want to have accomplishments that people admire...going so far as to have "Honors" certificates/rewards and awards for those who hit those "top" areas.  People joke about how every kid gets "participation" ribbons now for just showing up, but it's honestly a bigger joke how much we push giving so many awards/ribbons/medals/trophies in the first place to really push that air of superiority for folks who get them, and the insecurities of wanting that admiration for the folks who fall a little short.

    Which then translates internally and becomes a major part of us to where even when not in school, a part of us thrives in wanting that recognition and admiration because that's what we were taught.  It's that moment of when sports stop being this fun game where everyone just plays for fun, and starts being a team versus team competition where winners are praised, and those who don't win are "losers" who get a sometimes nice after-game pep talk/activity, but it's considered almost shameful that you didn't win and get that first place trophy.

    It's entirely exasperated in High School when we're just coming to terms with our identities, because now that desire for admiration and praise in our accomplishments becomes part of us, and becomes something as simple as joining the right clique or aspiring to be one of the popular kids...while watching praised students such as those who do well in sports get special treatment because they're so "valued" versus the regular student.  In other words, even in high school you're seeing examples of someone who does less get more because of favoritism...only in this sense it's because they're a sports star.

    We go into something like college which depending on the field goes a little more into merit versus playing favorites, but then the workforce itself repeats that cycle.  You're encouraged to go above and beyond and really "put your all" into the company to get promoted, because promotions = more pay.  If you're only average, you'll more than likely get looked past, and much like you're taught in school...there's always going to be those who get promoted purely out of favoritism, there's always those that will take the credit for what you do except it's completely okay because they're your manager, and work itself is always just one big competition that if you're not doing all it takes to make sure you're better than the competitors, you might as well be a loser because you don't want it as much as anyone else does.  And god forbid you don't always bend over backwards to cater to every one of your employer's whims since they could knock you out of full time employment since you're obviously not "serious" about wanting it (something I was personally threatened with consistently at Walmart when I didn't want to work overtime).

    All we're seeing now is that just playing out much more blatantly as employees are treated more like they're disposable rather than assets.  The competition aspect is being pushed much more harshly, the blatant favoritism in promoting who you know rather than folks with merit, the blatant promoting to tick diversity quotas rather than focusing purely on merit, cutting people's schedules so you don't have to give them health insurance or retirement benefits...all of that has always been an issue with employment since I started working back in 2011 in the school district (and was always overlooked for a non-sub job because of folks who worked there longer shifting roles internally).  It's just been much more blatant and on display in more recent years.
    1 person likes this post: taulover
    « Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 08:18:31 AM by Michi »
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  • @Michi: I don't think your wrong, but I also think those things have always existed in the school system to some extent. What has changed is the focus in education from preparing students to be good Citizens (the reason compulsory public education was created in the US) to being good workers and to some extent to compete with Japan because in the 60s and 70s we were suddenly freaked out that our students weren't doing as well at taking standardized tests as theirs. It's a change that I think was not well thought out, has helped make the US education system a disaster, and has created generations of Citizens who don't know how to be good Citizens...I could really go on and on about that, but it's not really relevant to what you're saying, lol.

    I think what's really changed is how the social contract between workers and employees has gone downhill, which is something the article touches on. As recently as 30 years ago, a person could still have worked for one company, made a living wage and then some, and then retired on a decent pension, and for that employees could be loyal to their employers. But now companies expect that same level of loyalty when they treat their employees like shit...overworked, underpaid, disposable, and treated like the company owns them. It's become obvious that companies don't care about their employees at all...if an employee isn't happy about it, they can leave and the company can find somebody else. It's no wonder that people don't want to work under those conditions, but then they're made out to be lazy bums that just don't want to work.

    "The world needs a sense of worth, and it will achieve it only by its people feeling that they are worthwhile." -Fred Rogers

    I think the rebellion against work as it is right now is just people who want to be treated with dignity and made to feel that they and the work they do is worthwhile, and to be paid as if it were worthwhile. It's hard to say if this movement will last...some people think it was spurred on by the pandemic stimulus, where people were getting that money and didn't necessarily have to work. It's one reason why politicians moved to end it, and it's funny how the corporations and the politicians are on the same page of making sure workers are poor enough that they have to put up with their shitty jobs just to be able to feed themselves and put a roof over their heads (and not even really being able to do that as well in recent years).

    Who knows? At the rate they're going in 10 years they'll probably try to bring back indentured servitude, lol.


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  • I think people just want more agency in their worklife and to not have so much of their life focused on work. As y'all have talked about, the pendulum has swung so far in favor of employers, workers are getting fed up with being taken advantage of. But I don't think this movement is going anywhere until we start to see an equilibrium.

    I actually think this all started with the 2018 teachers' union strikes. It awoke something in the US workforce and taught young people that striking is a viable tool and to not settle for shitty working conditions. Since then there's been a surge in labor strikes with over a million workers participating in strikes across the following years, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. COVID significantly slowed that trend, but it's starting to pick back up with life returning to normal. And I think we're only just seeing the beginning with the growing success of unionization at corporations such as Starbucks and Amazon.


    Once workers have more say and a greater stake at their place of work with a better work-life balance (30-hour work week, anyone?), I think people will be begin to feel more satisfied with working. Until then, as I said before I don't expect the antiwork movement to decline a bit. 
    2 people like this post: taulover, Wintermoot

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  • It's not normal that people working full time jobs need emergency governmental assistance to make ends meet. No one who works should have to rely on low income housing or food banks.

    Squeaky wheels are tired of being passed on when it comes to the distribution of oil and they're seizing. Considering how they've been treated, is that any wonder?

    When I read stuff like :


    Quote
    “I don’t have goals. I don’t have ambition. I only want to be attractive.” This apathetic declaration is the start of a TikTok rant that went viral for its blatant message: to reject hard work and indulge in leisure. Thousands of young people have since remixed the sound on the app, providing commentary about their post-college plansdream jobs, or ideal lifestyles as stay-at-home spouses.

    Over the past two years, young millennials and members of Gen Z have created an abundance of memes and pithy commentary about their generational disillusionment toward work. The jokes, which correspond with the rise of anti-work ideology online, range from shallow and shameless (“Rich housewife is the goal”) to candid and pessimistic.

    “I don’t want to be a girlboss. I don’t want to hustle,” declaimed another TikTok user. “I simply want to live my life slowly and lay down in a bed of moss with my lover and enjoy the rest of my existence reading books, creating art, and loving myself and the people in my life.”


    My first reaction is to think "you wanna lay down in a bed of moss, you better stay there forever. Who the hell are you to be a deadbeat by choice when others work their asses off to provide infrastructure and services you're taking for granted?"

    Of course, the *true* deadbeats are the rent-seeking class who live on the returns of their capital and can choose, due to nature of our economic system (namely, that the more money you have, the easier it is to get even more), to "lay down on beds of moss", using excess wealth extracted from generations of other people to fund their own leisure.

    I think it's telling that I have to think about it twice in order to focus my disgust on the right people.
    2 people like this post: Michi, taulover
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  • My first reaction is to think "you wanna lay down in a bed of moss, you better stay there forever. Who the hell are you to be a deadbeat by choice when others work their asses off to provide infrastructure and services you're taking for granted?"

    Of course, the *true* deadbeats are the rent-seeking class who live on the returns of their capital and can choose, due to nature of our economic system (namely, that the more money you have, the easier it is to get even more), to "lay down on beds of moss", using excess wealth extracted from generations of other people to fund their own leisure.

    I think it's telling that I have to think about it twice in order to focus my disgust on the right people.
    I think this is connected to ideas of capitalist realism - our economic system is so ingrained in us and pervasive as the only acceptable/real one, to the point where when we oppose it we're still finding ourselves subconsciously applying capitalist values to judge the working class negatively and view the wealthy positively.
    1 person likes this post: Michi
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  • You know, I think a good deal of it could be just the fact that Gen Z isn't nearly as religious as previous generations.  No Protestantism, no Protestant work ethic.  If doing good things diligently, frugally and in a well disciplined manner is no longer seen as a duty which benefits the individual's "righteousness" and society as a whole.  I'm not sure how many of my generation really feel like they have a duty or moral imperative to help the world, as sad as that is to say. 

    Then again, if you're one who rejects Weber's thesis here, we've just opened a whole new can of worms that can be immensely pleasing to talk about.  
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    Ne Crustumini quidem atque Antemnates pro ardore iraque Caeninensium satis se impigre movent; ita per se ipsum nomen Caeninum in agrum Romanum impetum facit. Sed effuse vastantibus fit obvius cum exercitu Romulus levique certamine docet vanam sine viribus iram esse.
    BraveSirRobin
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    Doc
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  • You know, I think a good deal of it could be just the fact that Gen Z isn't nearly as religious as previous generations.  No Protestantism, no Protestant work ethic.  If doing good things diligently, frugally and in a well disciplined manner is no longer seen as a duty which benefits the individual's "righteousness" and society as a whole.  I'm not sure how many of my generation really feel like they have a duty or moral imperative to help the world, as sad as that is to say. 

    Then again, if you're one who rejects Weber's thesis here, we've just opened a whole new can of worms that can be immensely pleasing to talk about. 
    I think we/they do feel/have/perceive the duty/moral imperative to help the world; we/they just don't feel any sense of agency with which to do so, and is unpersuaded that the labor they are being asked to perform really is fundamentally a righteous duty to help the world, and not just further enrich a minute, already-absurdly-wealthy fraction of the global population.
    Perhaps it would be one thing if our societies were working towards things to deal with climate change, ways to dial down on conflict, to better people's physical and mental health or handle the serious infrastructure and distribution problems we have with resources, any of those pressing issues identified when we were children. But instead those issues have stagnated where they haven't actively gotten worse, because our political and economic systems don't see those issues as important. In effect, it is an act of rebellion in that much of the labor we are being asked to accept as our 'duty' are in fact 'bullshit jobs', instead of any of these other forms of critical labor that are going manifestly underserved because there is no profit in servicing any of it.
    2 people like this post: BraveSirRobin, taulover
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    BraveSirRobin
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  • You know, I think a good deal of it could be just the fact that Gen Z isn't nearly as religious as previous generations.  No Protestantism, no Protestant work ethic.  If doing good things diligently, frugally and in a well disciplined manner is no longer seen as a duty which benefits the individual's "righteousness" and society as a whole.  I'm not sure how many of my generation really feel like they have a duty or moral imperative to help the world, as sad as that is to say. 

    Then again, if you're one who rejects Weber's thesis here, we've just opened a whole new can of worms that can be immensely pleasing to talk about. 
    I think we/they do feel/have/perceive the duty/moral imperative to help the world; we/they just don't feel any sense of agency with which to do so, and is unpersuaded that the labor they are being asked to perform really is fundamentally a righteous duty to help the world, and not just further enrich a minute, already-absurdly-wealthy fraction of the global population.
    Perhaps it would be one thing if our societies were working towards things to deal with climate change, ways to dial down on conflict, to better people's physical and mental health or handle the serious infrastructure and distribution problems we have with resources, any of those pressing issues identified when we were children. But instead those issues have stagnated where they haven't actively gotten worse, because our political and economic systems don't see those issues as important. In effect, it is an act of rebellion in that much of the labor we are being asked to accept as our 'duty' are in fact 'bullshit jobs', instead of any of these other forms of critical labor that are going manifestly underserved because there is no profit in servicing any of it.
    I agree with your sentiment pretty much completely.  As a fellow Z-er (just barely squeaking by with the 1998 bday).  The rich asshole idiot quotient has reached record levels for sure.  Particularly infuriated that businesses aren't giving COL adjustments right now, but still raising prices.  Please.  

    I think that largely, the thing that really grinds on me is the whole performative aspect of most modern corporations.  They don't actually give a shit about you, but they love to be perceived as giving a shit about you.  Super aggravating that.  

    Interestingly, I've been thinking a lot of Graeber recently.  I think that a lot of the whole "bullshit jobs" blame can be placed on the financialization of the US economy to an unsustainable degree.  We don't really manufacture much of anything anymore, save asset bubbles and inflation.  Weirdly, I kind of think that's why Elon Musk is kind of appealing... like him or not, he's one of the few people perceived as doing things.  I respect him for his marketing in that respect.  

    I'd only really disagree with you on the idea that there isn't profit in servicing any of the other needs that you've mentioned.  I think that there definitely is, and there should be more—but that's an issue that the politicians routinely refuse to solve.  Like, we've probably got the least ambitious politicians in the history of the world right now.  They just serve in Congress, and then after like, 6 years "retire" and collect $1 million from Raytheon for the rest of their life.  If they were willing to, say, implement Land Value Taxes to reduce the property bubble, or institute a Carbon Tax in the United States, or ban corporate landlords, things would probably markedly improve.  

    But who knows I'm probably just rambling.
    Sir Robin of Camelot

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    Résumé/A History of Robin on NationStates
    Wintreath:
    Citizen: 4 June 2015 - present
    Member of the Hvitt Riddaral: 21 August 2015 - present
    Strifa of the 12th Underhusen: 8 October 2015 - 13 December 2015
    Speaker Pro Tem of the 13th Underhusen: 13 December 2015 - 8 February 2016
    Speaker Pro Tem of the 14th Underhusen: 8 February 2016 - 8 April 2016
    Speaker of the 16th Underhusen: 10 June 2016 - 11 August 2016
    Ambassador to Europeia: 5 December 2016 - present
    RP Guild Councillor: 23 February 2017 - present
    Ambassador to The North Pacific: 11 March 2017 - present
    Speaker of the 21st Underhusen: 10 April 2017 - 10 June 2017
    Delegate of Wintreath: 10 June 2017 - 15 March 2020
    Strifa of the 23rd Underhusen: 10 August 2017 - 10 November 2017
    Thane of Ambassadors: 10 October 2018 - 10 December 2018
    Commendation of Wintreath: Sept 24 2020

    New Hyperion:
    Citizen: 27 November 2015 - present
    Patrician: 12 January 2016 - present
    Lord of Development: 5 February 2016 - present


    (I stole this format from tau, but who am I not to copy a great system? :-) )

    Ne Crustumini quidem atque Antemnates pro ardore iraque Caeninensium satis se impigre movent; ita per se ipsum nomen Caeninum in agrum Romanum impetum facit. Sed effuse vastantibus fit obvius cum exercitu Romulus levique certamine docet vanam sine viribus iram esse.
    BraveSirRobin
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    Wintermoot
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  • You know, I think a good deal of it could be just the fact that Gen Z isn't nearly as religious as previous generations.  No Protestantism, no Protestant work ethic.  If doing good things diligently, frugally and in a well disciplined manner is no longer seen as a duty which benefits the individual's "righteousness" and society as a whole.  I'm not sure how many of my generation really feel like they have a duty or moral imperative to help the world, as sad as that is to say. 

    Then again, if you're one who rejects Weber's thesis here, we've just opened a whole new can of worms that can be immensely pleasing to talk about.
    That may be a factor, but I don't think you have to be religious to take pride in your work and work hard at it. I think the disposable society is also at play here...how can people take pride in their jobs and work hard at them if they're treated as disposable cogs? And to speak to what Doc said, why should they when the point of their jobs usually seems to be to make the rich people at the top of the corporate ladder even richer?

    According to Forbes, the average CEO of a S&P 500 company makes nearly 300 times the average pay of their employees.
    1 person likes this post: taulover


    I went all the way to Cassadega to commune with the dead
    They said "You'd better look alive"
    Wintermoot
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    BraveSirRobin
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  • That may be a factor, but I don't think you have to be religious to take pride in your work and work hard at it. I think the disposable society is also at play here...how can people take pride in their jobs and work hard at them if they're treated as disposable cogs? And to speak to what Doc said, why should they when the point of their jobs usually seems to be to make the rich people at the top of the corporate ladder even richer?

    According to Forbes, the average CEO of a S&P 500 company makes nearly 300 times the average pay of their employees.
    So I agree, but my point was more along the lines of, you won't get the same FANATICAL work ethic for no reason.  The Protestant Work Ethic, according to Weber, is essentially an irrational level of hardworking, even when you won't get rewarded whatsoever.  It stems from the idea that your works in this world will be looked upon favorably in the next, etc.  

    I think that this sort of ethic remained after the decline of Protestantism in the United States, and we're only now really reexamining things.  Especially as you say, in this time where CEOs are taking like, 95% of new wealth gains.  Under the Protestant Work Ethic, the worker essentially doesn't care all the new wealth is going to the rich dude.  The pride in the work itself is its own reward, sorta.  (If that makes sense?)  

    Personally, my biggest critique of the current system is that it seems to totally support irresponsible behaviour, be it from banks, individuals, government, you name it its incentivized.  Banks are just infinitely bailed out, politicians aren't held accountable for their failings, and people can take out debt at ridiculously low interest rates.  Not to mention that the down payment on a house is travelling away faster than most young Americans (myself included) can afford. 

    Even if I save money responsibly, save for retirement, etc etc, I'm no better off than the person who isn't, because I'm still screwed out of owning a house by the Fed systematically flooding the housing market with loans for "landlords" who are leveraged to hell and buying every home they can get their hands on, etc.  

    In times like these, you'd hope that the government would come in and fix market distortions, like limit institutional ownership of housing, place an excise tax on owning more than like, 10 residential properties or something, remove the mortgage interest deduction and taking depreciation on residential buildings, etc.  

    Instead, they do nothing whatsoever, and instead play lip service to whatever social issue they have convinced their half of the country is more pressing, while everyone is getting crushed by the economy they're just... not handling.
    1 person likes this post: Laurentus
    Sir Robin of Camelot

    "Whilst the men of Caenia were scattered far and wide, pillaging and destroying, Romulus came upon them with an army, and after a brief encounter taught them that anger is futile without strength."  -Titus Livius, Ab Urbe Condita

    (Ravenclaw is the best!)

    Résumé/A History of Robin on NationStates
    Wintreath:
    Citizen: 4 June 2015 - present
    Member of the Hvitt Riddaral: 21 August 2015 - present
    Strifa of the 12th Underhusen: 8 October 2015 - 13 December 2015
    Speaker Pro Tem of the 13th Underhusen: 13 December 2015 - 8 February 2016
    Speaker Pro Tem of the 14th Underhusen: 8 February 2016 - 8 April 2016
    Speaker of the 16th Underhusen: 10 June 2016 - 11 August 2016
    Ambassador to Europeia: 5 December 2016 - present
    RP Guild Councillor: 23 February 2017 - present
    Ambassador to The North Pacific: 11 March 2017 - present
    Speaker of the 21st Underhusen: 10 April 2017 - 10 June 2017
    Delegate of Wintreath: 10 June 2017 - 15 March 2020
    Strifa of the 23rd Underhusen: 10 August 2017 - 10 November 2017
    Thane of Ambassadors: 10 October 2018 - 10 December 2018
    Commendation of Wintreath: Sept 24 2020

    New Hyperion:
    Citizen: 27 November 2015 - present
    Patrician: 12 January 2016 - present
    Lord of Development: 5 February 2016 - present


    (I stole this format from tau, but who am I not to copy a great system? :-) )

    Ne Crustumini quidem atque Antemnates pro ardore iraque Caeninensium satis se impigre movent; ita per se ipsum nomen Caeninum in agrum Romanum impetum facit. Sed effuse vastantibus fit obvius cum exercitu Romulus levique certamine docet vanam sine viribus iram esse.
    BraveSirRobin
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    Arenado
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  • I think, funnily enough, this rise in the 'rise and grind' nonsense mentality is leading the negative consequences for all involved, even the owner and upper management types. Hell, I was reading (strictly in my local context, admittedly, but it would hardly surprise me if it was also a more global trend) that law firms are absolutely hemorrhaging both young and mid level lawyers because, frankly, the expectation of the amount of work you must put in is insane. 

    80-90 hour work weeks, expectations of being reachable at all times and, basically, the sacrificing of any and all personal or social life to the job leads to several consequences, like insanely high levels of burnout among the staff that join and increasingly high numbers of people who would otherwise be interested in a career in that industry being completely turned off by the conditions, and I know its not just that field. Banking, finance, service industries, many fields are feeling the crunch because most people are just not willing to even consider 6 day work weeks with mandatory overtimes. This hurts business too since turnover costs money and the talent pool rapidly shrinks.

    Personally, I think we're seeing the beginning of the latest fight between labour and business, labour is hoping that with the advent of work from home or hybrid work schedules, the pandemic, the 'Great Resignation' and the economic crunch for business that followed is going to allow a rethink of work culture, expectations and work-life balance while business interests are hoping to put that genie back into the bottle and return to a sort of status quo antebellum, perhaps even one more beneficial for them, or at best to give up as few concessions as possible, and they are banking on a global recession turning the Great Resignation into the Great Regret so they can have the whip hand again. I think it could go either way, but expect it to get very, very ugly very, very soon.
    2 people like this post: Laurentus, taulover
    I Hope You Have A Nice Day :]
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