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Game Over on Round 7 Day

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Since we are agreeing to disagree, I strictly disagree with keeping town leans close to the chest.

The entire point of town is putting information out there (PRs exempt until the appropriate time w/e it is) so that it gets assessed and looked back upon once flips start happening. By keeping town leans to yourself for your stated reasons, you allow yourself wiggle room for when flips start happening. That's why lists are helpful.

I'm going to opt not to refer to other games. Instead, I'm going to point out that it is more suspicious of a person to keep information in the game hidden than someone that is hiding their identity hidden being suspicious. After all, it's not like by entering into this game it was decided, "Hey! This person is keeping their identity hidden! Better make them scum because that's a sus thing to do."

No. No Name opting to join the game with a different name to remain unknown doesn't directly translate into being suspicious in terms of alignment. If, and this is an if, meta were a concern, then you should be able to pick up on how they are playing by virtue of having experience with them as opposed to having no experience and therefore no need to know who they are because you wont' have any meta to draw upon anyway.

Suffice it to say, that's pretty sus of you, Aer to push on No Name's identity when you're the one openly opting to conceal information that town could use when assessing people. Because, again, drawing connections off of what people say is a big part of town's tool kit.

But meta for one person isn't necessarily the same meta for another person - hence the reason I find it sus to hide their true identity. It's not possible to check their playstyle in this game vs previous games if we don't know who they really are. To use a different example, let's say you are a poker player on some big circuit and you are good at identifying the tells of others. Player X likes to rub their elbow when they think they have a winning hand. Player Y has a tell wherein they rub their elbow when they're bluffing. If one of them was playing against you, but wearing a mask to conceal their identity, then you wouldn't be able to read the tell with certainty because the different players do the same thing in different circumstances. Does that explain it a bit better? 

As for me keeping town reads to myself, I'm used to having this argument, already did it in Champs twice. And it's not like I'm keeping it entirely secret. There are 16 other players in this game. If I publicly put forward doubts about 5 or 6 players, then it stands to reason that I either town lean or null read the remaining players. The only secret is just how townie I find them. And I don't see that as hurtful to the town at all. Let's say that 7 or 8 of us all say that we find Vro to be lock town, Vro quickly becomes a prime target for a NK. And if the scum does manage to kill him off, then we've just lost the person that a large number of people wouldn't have voted to lynch - which keeps the chaos level high and benefits the scum team because we'd be back to square 1 trying to form a core of people we trust. I think you're making more of my stance than is really warranted. It's not terribly difficult to deduce who I don't find scummy - it's the people that I don't post doubts about and that I don't cast votes for. Seems simple to me, not sure why it throws everyone else for a loop.

I'm crashing for the night. I'll read and respond to anything in the morning.

I'm going to opt not to refer to other games. 

Perhaps not for NoName, but you didn't mind telling me that CL has a meta of laying low when scum. So which is it? Using meta to judge CL is fine but saying that hiding meta isn't sus for NoName? That's rather contradictory if you ask me.

16 pages
:notlikeduck:

anyone caring to give a tl;dr of the last ten pages for me pls

That doesn't explain it better because that example is pitted irl. Your point is that without knowing who they are, meta can't be used against them.

To that I ask so what?

Because, again, it's not like they are strictly scum because they have a hidden name. They had signed up for the game as such. To assert that No Name is suspicious because they won't reveal who they are is brazen on your part and off track on what we should be doing. Will knowing who they are tell you their alignment? It will not just like knowing everyone else in this game will not tell you their alignment. In a similar vein, not knowing who No Name is ***does not*** translate into them having to be scum.

What should matter here is actions within the game. No Name concealing themself before stepping into the game is strictly NOT AI; however, that is in stark contrast to openly saying you won't give nuanced reads on every player as that leaves wiggle room to not lock oneself into and prevents drawing conclusions.


As for the argument in itself for your reads, it's strictly not in favor of town to not have detailed reads the further you go in. D1 obviously there isn't much of anything concrete. Outside of that, as the game progresses, and you opt to not tier reads on players to communicate how strongly you feel about some over others does nothing for assessing you personally. All it does is give you room to be like, "I thought they were town to me," without communicating how much townier over another.

But hey, we're agreeing to disagree so we'll see how it pans out.

Regarding safe mode:

Just use it if Ex dies and then lynch him immediately after. I guarantee that he'll flip mafia since that's what he does every time.

Maybe try bargaining with him to get names, then lynch him anyway.


@ Laur:

I both existed and didn't exist in Botwolf. The greatest thing to come out of that game was Directly.

lmao not wanting me to revive in your scum ass team and bring you down from inside again huh

You're not grasping the details then, Aer.

Judging CL on meta alone is fine because he's already in the game not posting which, for me, is odd in and of itself. And I likened that back to a previous time I saw this from him and connected it to him being mafia.

No Name being unknown coming into this game and playing is all there is. They're not lurking like CL. They're posting and communicating. And despite that, you're hard stuck on not knowing who they are and how sus it is even though their identity doesn't correlate to their assigned alignment in this game.

Do you see the difference there now? That CL not posting and my correlating that to a previous time when he was scum is drastically different than No Name entering this game with a hidden identity and how that doesn't correlate to their alignment and therefore cannot be sus?

If you can't, then oh well.

@Aersoldorf, people generally see it as bad because it's half information. Even if you say you not mentioning people shows you're null-town leaning them it doesn't say why. Go back to your initial example on me. If you assert I've hidden myself because I have a strong town tell and randed wolf and wanted to hide that fact (which as KoD pointed out is impossible because I'd have to chose to hide myself before I knew my role) the very presence of a strong town tell creates a good reason for you to point out such a tell to allow others to judge it for themselves. Simply saying, "they aren't on my scum list" doesn't convey that same information. 

Conversely my hiding my identity draws extra attention onto myself. I am forcing myself under the microscope more so than if I simply told you who I was. That's hardly optimal scum play. 

@KoD, probably distracted reading. You know how it be sometimes. 

@Ex, lots of people picked ice creams. That's all that really matters. 

Oh my god you are trying to be the WIML substitute in this game, aren't you

Vote: Vroendal

What do these words mean?

Remember Legacy of Smiles from AoT? He goes by Wiml elsewhere, one of his popular quotes is "good turtle, trust".

DO NOT TRUST THE TOWNIE LOOKING TURTLE

Ex, you'd be in my team nonetheless and able to say your piece anyway. Doesn't seem very plus ultra of me in that respect.

Besides, don't forget your intent to betray town and getting killed before that could happen.



As for a summary:

- No Name knows six people here and did an ice cream question and ranked people based on responses (or lack thereof).
- You already know about the small amount of discussion around the game mechanics.
- Recently there has been more conversation: From Laur you have a barrage of different topics and questions directed at people, you've got me talking to No Name about their ice cream question and what it means, and Aer has started off on talking about how he approaches the game.


In truth you really haven't missed much so feel free to jump in.

Ok went back over the whole thread to see if I could pull a better read list. These are mostly gut reactions.

Dolby - town
Neon - feels honest
Lau - pinging people for answers. Seems normal for Lau?
TGN - feels like normal town play from TGN to me.
Vro - townleaning for no good reason, just gut reaction.
Red - nothing at all
ENE - nothing at all, completely neutral.
Gerrick - also a lot of no feelings.
Ex - being chaotic, then disappeared.
NoName - sussy, but also weird mystery thing going on. Probably nothing or maybe something?
KOD - idk... gut level sus. Possibly just biased from last game.

how were my posts chaotic smh

16 pages
:notlikeduck:

anyone caring to give a tl;dr of the last ten pages for me pls

I got you. People are arguing about ice cream and it's usefulness as a reason to read town/scum.

I'm being me

Lau wants people to do better or something post more? I dunno. 

And people are arguing about semantics 

I mainly just want to invite people over for some tea to have a private chat yanno? It's a little hard to talk with all the yelling back and forth

Ok, time for some actual thoughts. First I will point out that I am not a huge fan of publicly giving town core and town lean reads. Those of you who have read either of my WC games at MU will note that I've made the same argument in both seasons that I played there. If we all, or a majority of us, say that we think X and Y are the most townie in our opinions it just paints a great big bullseye on their backs. I realize that it's easy to get a feel for how some people view others, but still think it's a bad idea to just come right out and say that I find someone lock town. At least early in the game. That can definitely change in the latter stages when there's a lot more to go on than we have in the first few days. That being said, I won't be giving a list breaking down my thoughts on everyone. My win condition, as town, is to identify and eliminate the entire scum team. Personally I find it easier to look for scum than to try town reading enough people to passively find the scum, if that makes sense. Basically what I'm getting at is that for the first few days at least I'm only likely to point out things that I find scummy, or that hit me wrong for whatever reason. It's a strategy that has served me well over the years and I don't see any reason to abandon it at this point.

I didn't really sleep well last night, and got less than 3 hours total, so I'm pretty wiped out and apologize if this rambles or isn't as clear as I would like it to be. I'm also too tired to try and figure out the multi-quote mechanics here so I won't be quoting a bunch of different posts in order to make my case tonight. I'll try to figure that bit out when I'm better rested.

Before I say anything about any particular players, I'd like to take a minute and talk about the modes that can be triggered:

Quiet mode and mute mode - I've already touched on this, as have a few others. I don't see a world in which either of these modes are beneficial to the town. I'd be very suspicious of anyone who triggers either of them. Continuing discussions during the night phase can allow us to plan ahead for the next day and can also allow us to hear the final thoughts of whoever ends up being the NK. Imagine we get near the end of the game and our seer, or someone who has some type of scanning ability, is able to identify the final scum member, but they are unable to relay that information to the rest of us because the quiet mode gets triggered, and that person ends up getting killed at night and takes the identity of the scum to the grave with them. Only bad things can happen when we're silenced, so please, let's not go there.

Time warp - appears to only change the flavor theme, but I'm not 100% sure what that means. Doesn't say that it will change anyone's role or alignment, so probably not a terrible thing to trigger - albeit we aren't told what that trigger is.

Safe mode - this is the only trigger-able mechanic that I think we should at least try to figure out how to trigger, in case we need it. Someone (sorry, don't remember who and don't feel like searching for it) laid out their ideas for when we should and should not try to use it. I generally agreed with the logic that they used. If there's only 1 person killed during a phase then it's beneficial to us to use the mode if possible and revive them (provided that they're town). Here's where my uncertainty kicks in though - the rules state that if it gets triggered then AT THE END OF THE PHASE an option will appear and we all get to vote on whether or not to enact the mode. The rules also state that the mode will last until the end of the phase. Does that mean if it gets triggered during the day that at EoD the vote option will appear and that if we vote yes then safe mode would last through the night? Bit confusing the way it's worded. If we trigger during the day but don't get to vote yes/no until the end of the phase then what's the point of entering the mode only to have the phase end at that point. And as for the vote, would we be told the role/alignment of the dead person(people) before we vote or not? The rules aren't clear on that point. If there are multiple deaths then I do agree that the alignment flip would pretty much 100% have to be from town to scum, because flipping a scum to town basically hoses the rest of the scum team - an outcome that I'm sure the hosts would have though of and decided against.

This is the first time I've ever played in a game where all of the included roles weren't made public knowledge. It's also the first game that I've played in which the number of scum team members isn't disclosed at the start of the game. Those two factors together seem to me to favor the scum team - they can make almost any claim that they want and we don't have a really good way to disprove what they say without lynching them and hoping that the person claiming a role is scum lying and not town telling the truth to try and save themselves. Don't really see any way around this, merely pointing it out so that anyone who may not have thought of it is now aware. Someone posted earlier and suggested that a 3v to 1s ratio is generally accepted as normal, so with 17 players I'm going to guess that there are either 4 or 5 members of the scum team, with 4 being more likely. But we don't really have a way of knowing if that's correct or not until the game is over.

Now to address some of the scum leans I have. It's only D1 and so the list isn't really long.

In my experience, the scum team, or at least a good chunk of it, can usually be found in the most active posters and in the least active posters. Occasionally you'll find one in the middle, but the top and bottom are the first places that I like to look.

Don't really have a good way to see how many posts everyone has made thus far, so I'm just going to guess based on memory and if I get something wrong don't hesitate to point it out. I might leave someone off of one of these lists.

The more frequent posters that have really made an impression on me are Lau, Dolby, Abigail and Ex. There may be some others in this tier, but those are the ones I remember seeing most often and I feel pretty confident in saying that at least 1 if not 2 scum members are in this group. None of them really stands out to me more than the others, with the exception of Abigail. She claimed early that she wouldn't be very active in the beginning because of car troubles, and she's still one of the top posters - which goes directly against what she said. Not a super hot take, but scum slips are often difficult to spot and often very minor contradictory statements. Is this one of those cases? Dunno. Just putting it out there to keep an eye on. Also found it odd that Ex voted for Abigail for saying that she favored mint chocolate chip ice cream. She's only one of many of us who named that flavor, but he only called her out for it. Why? Scum buddies trying to distance from one another or simply a case where they know each other pretty good and this type of back and forth is normal for them. I don't know either of them so can't judge it myself, perhaps someone who has more experience playing with both of them can weigh in on that angle.

Then we have the low tier posters. Moon, Gerrick and Captan Lunch are the bottom 3 posters I believe. And if I'm not mistaken, Captan Lunch hasn't made the first post yet. I did scroll through all the pages earlier to verify that and didn't see anything they had posted so I'm pretty sure that's accurate. If I were looking for scum laying low then that's the first vote I would go with. I'd have to go back to the signup thread to see if Captan is a Wintreath native or an exalted guest. If they're from another region then it's conceivable that they don't know the game started but if they're a native then I'd be much more likely to vote for them. (note to self: check that out tomorrow and vote for Captan if he's a native).

The only other person that I have uneasy feelings about at the moment is NoName. Here we have a player who is obviously trying to keep their true identity a secret. They said that they have played in the past with 6 of us, but refuse to tell us who they really are. Strikes me as someone with a meta that they aren't comfortable trying to counter. If they have obvious tells as a townie then why hide who they really are? Makes me think they randed scum and are worried that their play in previous games as a wolf would make it painfully obvious that they've drawn that role again. If Captan Lunch turns out to be a visitor rather than a native then NoName is probably going to get my vote today just because I don't trust someone who openly admits that they're hiding something from the rest of us. Town roles don't have any reason to hide information from each other, that's something that only the wolves need to concern themselves with. Also, if Lunch is a visitor then I'd have to look again at Moon and Gerrick to evaluate which of them I think is more likely to be a low laying scum.

That's pretty much all of my thoughts at the moment. Feel free to point out anything you think I got wrong. I like to think I'm decent at spotting wolves, but I'm certainly not infallible.

is this "impression" you mean a town core
also why the hell would I make an impression I made like half a dozen posts that didnt add anything to the discussion

and talk about overthinking, I just RVS voted Neon because I don't like mint chocolate ice cream
how would it even be related to a discussion that came after my vote?

For the record, I'm pretty sure I know who No Name is.

And no, Aer, I'm not going to say who it is as they should be judged on their content rather than their name.

That said, most of you don't know them either.

Is it someone from NGA?

Ok went back over the whole thread to see if I could pull a better read list. These are mostly gut reactions.

Dolby - town
Neon - feels honest
Lau - pinging people for answers. Seems normal for Lau?
TGN - feels like normal town play from TGN to me.
Vro - townleaning for no good reason, just gut reaction.
Red - nothing at all
ENE - nothing at all, completely neutral.
Gerrick - also a lot of no feelings.
Ex - being chaotic, then disappeared.
NoName - sussy, but also weird mystery thing going on. Probably nothing or maybe something?
KOD - idk... gut level sus. Possibly just biased from last game.

how were my posts chaotic smh

No info. Random votes. Chaos.