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Hey everyone, you all probably already know me. In case you don't, I'm Gerrick -- I was Jarl of Culture for a few years, so I'm quite familiar with the Cabinet and its discussions. I'm interested in seeing how this citizen involvement will work, but considering that there are only two of us currently running, I wonder if we will even continue with it. I think this might end up being another nail in the coffin of representative democracy in Wintreath.

You are very perceptive.

I will say this...I will at least run through the concept with those who stand for the autumn term, because I would like to see if there's benefit to having more people who are dedicated more to the thinking, planning, advocating, and advising than to the doing as the Cabinet is.

But yeah, between this and inactivity in the Underhusen, representative democracy in the region isn't having a good moment, is it?

Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing how this idea will play out. I think it'd be unfortunate if it's never really given the chance.

I also find it interesting that so many here defend our representative systems and yet we always seem to have a lack of people who step up to represent.

I'm surprised as well. After the outcry over Doc trying to create a crisis out of the UH elections, I expected this would be the term we all came together and finally figured out what was going on with the UH, if anything could be done with it at all. That's one of the reasons I focused I this issue and trying to come up with an idea for it.

In the end, representative democracy in the region need people who are going to work for it. It needs more than lip service whenever Doc comes around.

I'm surprised as well. After the outcry over Doc trying to create a crisis out of the UH elections, I expected this would be the term we all came together and finally figured out what was going on with the UH, if anything could be done with it at all. That's one of the reasons I focused I this issue and trying to come up with an idea for it.

In the end, representative democracy in the region need people who are going to work for it. It needs more than lip service whenever Doc comes around.

I'm... not sure what you mean by all this? To me, the Doc crisis seemed like a sign that although the UH has its problems, and often suffers from inactivity, it largely still works. Activity was generated around an otherwise walkover election, the BID folks got their fun, the electoral system worked to vote out someone who was being facetious with it. The UH still gives that opportunity for people to dip their toes in the government waters, even though the position is largely inconsequential (outside of its control over Citizenship, which I think has actually had a tremendous impact on the direction of Wintreath as a community). And even in a terribly inactive session (at least toward the end) it was able to to get its job done at the last minute.

I know that for you, Doc's actions were actually materially impactful since he forced you to do extra work out of facetiousness, but I think for most people the outcry was largely within the system of the UH. People somehow cared enough about the UH to have an outcry when someone tried to abuse its system, which to me seems much more of a sign that the current system has somehow justified itself to the citizenry rather than the citizenry having a collective moment of realization that the system itself is flawed or anything.

If I'm being honest, when you posted that essay on the UH and the Citizen's Council, I didn't realize any connection to Doc at all. For me personally, it seemed like the creation of a position that only consisted of the reason why I left the Cabinet, i.e. needing to participate in the rather draining and time-consuming discussions, without the interesting upside of actually doing the interesting things. But I could certainly see people for which this aspect on its own is worthwhile. (That is, after all, basically all that the Advisors do/did, and the thought of participating in the private Cabinet discussions did certainly draw me into the Riksrad for quite some time.)

@taulover: Burn It Down openly schemed to turn the election into a constitutional crisis, several people including myself took extraordinary measures to denounce what they were doing, and they still only lost by 8-5. Sure, Doc didn't win, but he did show that BID has more supporters than it once had and that they’re willing to go further to make their points than they once were. What happens if a few others change their mind in the future?

Perhaps you see the result as proof that the system is working, but I see it as a warning shot showing that sentiment is changing against the current system. People may see it as a valid system and the current legitimate system, but that doesn’t mean it’s held in high regard.

That is why I focused so much time pondering, researching, and drafting my original proposal. It entirely preserved the Underhusen’s current roles and authorities, and added a new dimension that would give it new opportunities and ways to make a difference in the region. I believe that nobody but Chanku holds the current system in especially high regard, but at the same time I believe that if the Underhusen had a role that made more of a difference, most people would be satisfied.

I was more than a little surprised and disappointed when the response from the Underhusen was silence. Had the UH not liked the proposal that would have been one thing...at least it was a fresh take that sparked some discussion and maybe got others thinking on how to make the Underhusen more meaningful. But nobody from the Underhusen even commented on it, because the Underhusen once again went inactive, and this time it didn’t even have the excuse of not having anything to discuss or do. I’m not alone though...Dawsinian’s judicial reform proposal, ogun’s commendations (in fairness to him he has tried to prod the UH to action), monkey’s alternative UH proposal...all just pretty much dropped.

At the very least, I can’t imagine this showing is going to revive support for the current system.

So now I’m running this as an experiment under my own authority, because I would like to see if we can make something out of a representative body, and I can’t force the Underhusen to accept my proposal. But as Gerrick stated, the lack of enthusiasm makes one wonder if there just isn’t much interest in representative democracy in Wintreath regardless of what body it is.

Perhaps the issue goes beyond the Underhusen specifically. Perhaps there isn’t much interest in regional or community governance in Wintreath nowadays, and most people are content to let the Monarchy and administration do as they please so long as it doesn’t interfere with what they like doing here. I have noticed that isn’t uncommon in NationStates user-created regions these days. Or perhaps people don’t fully understand what the Citizens’ Council will do, which is understandable because at the moment that’s very ambiguous. If this term is successful, perhaps a December election would draw more interest. Even if the elections themselves are unsuccessful but other aspects are (such as getting people involved in governance), then that at least that would be something we can build on.

Ultimately, it will probably take two full terms to be able to conclude what has worked and what hasn’t worked here, which is why it really is an experiment. The proposal itself isn’t directly connected to Doc at all, but I think BID’s showing in the election has made it a more urgent issue than it has been, and even if that wasn’t the case we should make an effort to close a debate that’s been going on for over 5 years now.

That’s pretty much where I’m at on this at the moment.

@Wintermoot: I've been trying to make sense of what you're trying to do here, and this part of what you said popped out at me:

Or perhaps people don’t fully understand what the Citizens’ Council will do, which is understandable because at the moment that’s very ambiguous. If this term is successful, perhaps a December election would draw more interest.

Because while I think it's clear what the Citizens' Council does in a literal sense (meet with the Cabinet to discuss things), I am quite confused as to what the Citizens' Council is meant to do, in terms of its practical purpose.

We have elected thanes, who participate in full Cabinet discussions. Our current situation in Wintreath basically means that if you want to be on the Cabinet, you are effectively guaranteed a spot. So if what you want is to be part of the decision-making, discussion-having group of citizens, then you're already probably going to be on the Cabinet or be looking to go there. It seems odd to me, in such a tight-knit community as Wintreath, to add an extra layer of separation with another consultative group of elected citizens who don't even directly have access to Cabinet discussions (afaik) but instead are talked with in a separately mediated meeting with the Cabinet.

I suppose this is what confuses me the most with how you've been framing the Citizens' Council. Each time it sounds like you're supposing broad implications about representative democracy in Wintreath. But in practice, in a small and tight-knit community like Wintreath, elected officials aren't really representing constituents that much. In most cases it's more that the person has something that they want to personally do or have some insight they can personally provide. There isn't really a civil society to be represented in government; it's more individuals being elected to do things they want to do.

But Wintreath already provides Thaneships as democratically elected decision-making positions (or at least a consultative one). You get elected to do things and offer your insight in discussions. And with the Underhusen, at least you can play at writing laws, following parliamentary procedure, giving official honors, and occasionally making actual important decisions about citizenship. But with the Citizen's Council, on reflection it seems that you're basically being elected to advise yet another advisory body, to represent the citizenry to a group that itself already represents the citizenry and actually makes the decisions.

In that case, if you want to be involved in the running of the region and those relevant discussions, you'd be on the Cabinet. If you want to play at being a lawmaker in a legislature with a long and organic tradition and some level of real-world impact (or at least enough to suspend disbelief), then you'd be in the Underhusen. If you want nothing to do with such things (e.g. me, right now) then you still wouldn't want to be on the Citizen's Council.

So I am actually quite confused on both the purpose of this body for the region and the appeal of it to prospective members.

Sorry for the long post and possibly heavy criticism, it's just me trying to make sense of what the point of all this is.

@taulover: I don't believe that the dynamic you describe is going to last forever, especially with respect to the Underhusen and the Storting. I think that most people believe that the Underhusen in particular needs to change in some way, though there's no agreement on how. It's a debate we've been having for years, but as I said in my last post I think BID has convinced more people that something should be done sooner rather than later. I worry that if we don’t start considering how to change the Storting, eventually the default opinion will be that it should be done away with entirely.

I had originally wanted to add this role to the Underhusen in addition to its existing roles, but with no buy-in from the Underhusen I was forced to run the experiment as a separate group. We need this group in place near the beginning of a season so we can consider our goals for the term from the beginning and work toward them. It’s not effective to do that if the group is coming on board halfway through the season. I am still open to working with the Underhusen for the winter term that starts in December if they wish to accept the offer, though.

In the meantime, we’ll run the experiment as a separate group. I don’t know all the specifics yet, but one of the first things I would like the combined group to consider are values, ideals, things we’re known for and like about ourselves, etc, and bring them together as a document that we can use to plan out the term with, so that hopefully what we’re doing aligns with the things about the region we want to emphasize or enhance. I guess you could kinda call it a strategic plan, but I don’t think it’ll be that formal.

I would definitely like to see the Cabinet do things with more intention on why we’re doing it and less everyone by themselves doing their own thing. I think having a group more dedicated to the discussing and planning than to the working and doing might help with that.

I’m open to working with the Underhusen in the winter term that starts in December if they’re interested in that, but I also realize that it’s entirely possible that the Underhusen may cease to exist or take a different form in the future, in which case the Citizens’ Council may be what’s left of representative democracy in Wintreath (which I do still support in general). This is very experimental, but there’s nothing to lose in trying. It doesn’t require amending the Fundamental Laws or changing the government wholesale. It just takes some doing to try. So why not?

@Wintermoot: If I'm being honest here, it feels like you're elaborating on things you've already said without really addressing my points of confusion.

The way you've been framing the Citizens' Council certainly makes more sense when considering that it was born out of a joint UH-Riksrad channel proposal. But the two seem so different to me that drawing comparisons or linking implications between the two seems like quite a massive stretch.

The Storting is still interesting as a model legislature, and getting them involved with the Cabinet's running of the region is certainly an interesting way to look into rejuvenating it. But if you're electing people purely to discuss things with the Cabinet, well, to me that literally just sounds like what the Cabinet already does, except with less information and decision-making ability.

You mention this distinction that the Cabinet is more just individuals doing their own thing rather than discussing intentions and greater goals. But during my entire time on the Cabinet in the Discord era, we did far, far more discussing than doing. The several times I felt like leaving the Cabinet, I remember being told being the value of being involved in Cabinet discussions was possibly more important than satisfying the actual Thaneship duties. By the end my Thaneship felt far more like I was being made to provide thoughts on FA matters and general Monarchy things, and then maybe a dispatch here and there.

It might have been different in the forum era, but whereas the Cabinet subforum was never too active, #cabinet (at least when I left it) was highly active. Discussions and planning is what the Cabinet does. And the Cabinet is already mostly elected. Having another elected group that's supposed to also do this, only does this, and yet isn't privy to Cabinet discussions or proposals, seems incredibly odd to me. Why not play around with adding 5 elected Advisors to the Cabinet, or something like that?

Also, now that you've repeated it, I'm also confused on the buy-in reasoning for scrapping the UH-Riksrad channel. Of course, the UH session fell into inactivity: Chanku went somewhat inactive, and trader is never really that active as a Skrifa. But both Ogun and monkey are on the Cabinet, where I'm sure you've solicited feedback on both these proposals. And Ogun, who is Speaker PT and has been active Speaker, has been highly supportive of this Council idea and yet his only feedback to your UH essay and joint channel proposal was a like.

I didn't even notice the buy-in angle until you mentioned it, since it didn't seem like you were urgently asking the UH for consent before moving forward. After all, as root admin you have the power to create those channels unilaterally. It's even been done before (#meeting_room_1) without fully soliciting the advice/opinion of either the UH or Cabinet. So to me it seems like the UH was generally supportive or indifferent, and possibly unaware that you even wanted their feedback before moving forward.