Pages: 1 [2]

[PROPOSAL] Independence of the Chambers Act
Posts: 19 Views: 961

Wintermoot
  • Regional Stability Squad
  • The Greyscale Magi-Monk
  • @taulover: It doesn't specify that it applies only to offices established by the Fundamental Laws because there were no other elected offices envisioned when the Fundamental Laws were drafted, so in 2013 it went without saying. Even Underhusen Speakers were appointed for the first few terms, and the idea of elected thanes was still years away.

    The restrictions placed into the Fundamental Laws make sense if they only apply to Underhusen elections, but not if they apply to all elections. It makes sense for the Monarch to be barred from standing for Underhusen, because they are represented by the Overhusen, but it doesn't make sense to bar the Monarch from any election. I couldn't even run for a social club office under that interpretation. Likewise, it makes sense to make sure that any other Citizen can run for Underhusen, because the chamber's purpose is to represent Citizens, but that doesn't necessarily make sense for any conceivable election. It doesn't necessarily make sense for more specialized elections, and the restrictions on thane elections were dropped mostly for reasons of practicality than legality.

    There's a reason that the restriction on having the Monarch stand was placed directly in the Fundamental Laws, and had anyone realized that Peers could run and end up in both offices I'm certain that would have been placed in the Fundamental Laws as well. This is about correcting an oversight in the Fundamental Laws, and as this other issue about election restrictions has come up I believe at best that it's an oversight in the Fundamental Laws as well. I don't think there was ever an intention for the Storting to decide that Citizens can be barred from their representative chamber by mere majority vote.

    Besides correcting this oversight, is there any conceivable, productive reason for the Storting to do so?

    I continue to call for these matters to be resolved via constitutional amendment.
    « Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 09:43:52 AM by Wintermoot »


    I went all the way to Cassadega to commune with the dead
    They said "You'd better look alive"
    Wintermoot
    • The Greyscale Magi-Monk
    • Posts: 19,449
    • Karma: 9,677
    • Weather: ❄️
    • Regional Stability Squad
    • Pronouns
      He/Him/His
      Orientation
      Demisexual
      Wintreath Nation
      Logged
    taulover
  • Regional Stability Squad
  • Seeker of Knowledge
  • @taulover: It doesn't specify that it applies only to offices established by the Fundamental Laws because there were no other elected offices envisioned when the Fundamental Laws were drafted, so in 2013 it went without saying. Even Underhusen Speakers were appointed for the first few terms, and the idea of elected thanes was still years away.
    Perhaps that was the original intent, I do not know. But that's not what the law actually says. The language is pretty clear. It says "any elected office," not "any elected office outlined in these Fundamental Laws."

    I do find this line of thinking more and more strange the more I'm thinking about it, though. If the actual intent was for this to apply to Underhusen elections only, I suspect that the language would have been more specific, and referred to Underhusen elections and referendums only, whereas on several occasions the Fundamental Laws refer to "elections of government officials or referendums" and "any elected office." It seems to me that whoever wrote these sections used language in most cases that was more flexible, and which could be extended to any future government positions.
    The restrictions placed into the Fundamental Laws make sense if they only apply to Underhusen elections, but not if they apply to all elections. It makes sense for the Monarch to be barred from standing for Underhusen, because they are represented by the Overhusen, but it doesn't make sense to bar the Monarch from any election. I couldn't even run for a social club office under that interpretation.
    Again, the law just says that the Monarch cannot take any elected office, not that the Monarch cannot take any elected office created in the Fundamental Laws. I think when it comes to a social club, it's questionable whether that's an elected government office, but even then based on the current law I think there would be debate to be had on whether the Monarch could take such a position if it was created by the government and was elected.
    Likewise, it makes sense to make sure that any other Citizen can run for Underhusen, because the chamber's purpose is to represent Citizens, but that doesn't necessarily make sense for any conceivable election.
    It certainly makes sense for the Underhusen to have that requirement, but there isn't actually anything in the Fundamental Laws that says it.
    It doesn't necessarily make sense for more specialized elections, and the restrictions on thane elections were dropped mostly for reasons of practicality than legality.
    The practical change leads to a stronger legal argument, is all I am saying.
    There's a reason that the restriction on having the Monarch stand was placed directly in the Fundamental Laws, and had anyone realized that Peers could run and end up in both offices I'm certain that would have been placed in the Fundamental Laws as well. This is about correcting an oversight in the Fundamental Laws, and as this other issue about election restrictions has come up I believe at best that it's an oversight in the Fundamental Laws as well. I don't think there was ever an intention for the Storting to decide that Citizens can be barred from their representative chamber by mere majority vote.

    Besides correcting this oversight, is there any conceivable, productive reason for the Storting to do so?

    I continue to call for these matters to be resolved via constitutional amendment.
    I think we have found some more oversights here. Clearly some of us have been assuming that the Fundamental Laws says things that it does not. I would probably vote Aye on a referendum which requires all citizens to be eligible to stand for Underhusen. I would be less inclined to make Article IV apply to Underhusen elections specifically, because I think there is some value in what Article IV, Sections 1-3 say for elected government offices in general (Sections 4-11 already only apply to the UH specifically, given that they specifically are about the elections "as defined in Article I, Section 3"), though perhaps the restriction for the Monarch could be limited to the Underhusen specifically.
    2 people like this post: Chanku, BraveSirRobin
    Résumé
    Wintreath:
    Citizen: 8 April 2015 - present
    From the Ashes RP Game Master: 29 November 2015 - 24 July 2018
    Skydande Vakt Marshal: 29 November 2015 - 28 February 2017
    Skrifa of the 13th Underhusen: 13 December 2015 - 8 February 2016
    RP Guild Councillor: 9 February 2016 - 6 March 2018
    Ambassador to Lovely: 23 February 2016 - 17 August 2016
    Werewolf VII co-host: 11 May 2016 - 5 June 2016
    Skrifa of the 18th Underhusen: 8 October 2016 - 7 December 2016
    Ambassador to Balder: 1 December 2016 - 1 March 2022
    Skrifa of the 19th Underhusen: 7 December 2016 - 9 February 2017
    Ambassador to the INWU: 11 March 2017 - 1 March 2022
    Ambassador to the Versutian Federation: 18 August 2017 - 22 March 2018
    Thane of Integration: 29 September 2017 - 7 March 2018
    Speaker of the 24th Underhusen: 10 October 2017 - 7 December 2017
    October 2017 Wintreath's Finest: 4 November 2017
    Speaker pro tempore of the 25th Underhusen: 9 December 2017 - 7 February 2018
    Wintreath's Finest of 2017: 6 January 2018
    Werewolf XIV host: 20 January 2018 - 23 February 2018
    February 2018 Wintreath's Finest: 5 March 2018
    Thane of Embassy Dispatches / Foreign Releases and Information / Foreign Dispatches: 7 March 2018 - 15 March 2020
    Speaker of the 28th Underhusen: 10 June 2018 - 7 August 2018
    Second Patriarch of the Noble House of Valeria: 10 October 2018 - present
    Arena Game 6 Host: 28 December 2018 - 9 March 2019
    Librarian of the Underhusen: 29 January 2019 - 12 February 2019
    Speaker of the 32nd Underhusen: 12 February 2019 - 8 April 2019
    March 2019 Wintreath's Finest: 4 April 2019
    Librarian of the Underhusen: 12 April 2019 - 23 October 2020
    Commendation of Wintreath: 24 September 2020
    Peer of the Overhusen: 9 December 2020 - 8 February 2021
    Vice Chancellor of the Landsraad: 26 May 2021 - 15 September 2022
    Arena Game 8 Host: 10 June 2021 - 19 July 2021
    June 2021 Wintreath's Finest: 5 July 2021
    Regional Stability Squad: 28 February 2023 - present
    Minecraft Server Admin: 8 March 2023 - present

    Aura Hyperia/New Hyperion:
    Plebeian: 16 April 2014 - 21 July 2014
    Patrician: 21 July 2014 - present
    Adeptus Mechanicus: 24 October 2014 - 16 November 2014
    Co-founder of New Hyperion: 29 October 2014 - present
    Lord of Propaganda: 16 November 2014 - present
    Mapmaker for Official Region RP: 27 November 2015 - present
    WACom Delegate: 11 November 2017 - present
    Other positions: Hyperian Guardsman, Hyperian Marine (Rank: Scout)
    taulover
    • Seeker of Knowledge
    • Posts: 13,222
    • Karma: 4,253
    • Regional Stability Squad
    • Pronouns
      He/Him/His
      Familial House
      Valeria
      Wintreath Nation
      Logged
    Ogun of Valeria
  • Citizen
  • Popetato of Wintreath
  • I'm sure what everyone's opinions are on the act, but I'll motion for a vote
    @monkey @trader

    Aye
    Spoiler
    Wintreath
    Potato Pope of Wintreath from September 9, 2020-December 2020 (stepped down and pledges support to true pope)
    Citizen of Wintreath from July 1, 2017-present
    Bishop of the Cathedral of the Holy Tuber from August 15, 2020-September 9, 2020
    Wintreath's Finest of June: July 7, 2020
    WA Vice Delegate of Wintreath from April 13, 2020-June 4, 2020
    WA Delegate of Wintreath from June 4, 2020-present
    Thane of World Assembly/Regional Affairs from June 9, 2020- present
    Skrifa of the 37th Underhusen from December 8, 2019-February 8, 2020
    Skrifa of the 38th Underhusen from February 8, 2020-April 8, 2020
    Skrifa of the 41st Underhusen from August 8, 2020-October 9, 2020
    Skrifa of the 42nd Underhusen from October 9, 2020-December 8, 2020
    Speaker pro-tempore of the 41st Underhusen from August 18, 2020-September 13, 2020
    Acting Speaker of the Underhusen of the 41st Underhusen from September 13, 2020-October 9, 2020
    Ambassador to The East Pacific from January 27, 2020-present
    Ambassador to Aerium from February 2, 2020-March 24, 2020
    Ambassador to India from March 24, 2020-present
    Ambassador to Sonindia from June 2, 2020-present
    Member of the House of Emoticonious from June 5, 2020-July 18, 2020
    Member of the House of The Devils from June 19, 2020-present
    Member of the Cathedral of The Holy Tuber from June 21, 2020-present
    Ogun of Valeria
    • Popetato of Wintreath
    • Posts: 497
    • Karma: 443
    • Citizen
    • Pronouns
      He/Him/His
      Wintreath Nation
      Logged
    trader
  • Former Citizen
  • Wintreath's Unofficial Official Merchant
  • Nay, I say, Nay! If not for the simple fact that this is the proposal topic and not a [VOTE] topic.

    @ogunbiyi6422
    1 person likes this post: Imaginative Kane
    Remember, there is no reason to panic, nothing is on fire.
    trader
    • Wintreath's Unofficial Official Merchant
    • Posts: 303
    • Karma: 210
    • Mercury 'trader' Kestar
    • Former Citizen
    • Pronouns
      He/Him/His
      Familial House
      Kaizer
      Wintreath Nation
      Logged
     
    Pages: 1 [2]