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I would absolutely oppose tiers, as we have many people active on the Discord that would not be counted under this. Further, we've had a similar requirement and it absolutely harmed us, and even Wintermoot called it a bad idea afterwards.

In any case I'll see myself out from this topic since y'all aren't getting what I am saying.

Because they're totally being counted now under our current requirements for the forums.

Oh wait.

If you haven't noticed, this is concerning citizenship here on the forums.  Discord is Discord, and will continue to operate the way it currently does now.  A Discord user doesn't automatically gain the citizenship mask here on the forums if they don't actually join the forums first.  Likewise, a citizen of the forums who doesn't join Discord isn't automatically given the mask there.

And unless we decide to add another forum alternative of including Discord posts towards the Citizenship check each month (which we currently do not unless we decide to tie the 5 post requirement to it), then yeah...they're currently not protected under the standing laws from losing their citizenship status here unless they have an active NS nation.  But as long as they keep that nation alive (assuming that we'll always be tied to NS), then they'll at the very least be considered "Inactive" rather than "Former" with this system, and would still even be able to participate in elections...they'd just have to post here first meeting the post requirement before they could re-run for office.

Personally, I don't see how this would "absolutely harm us" if we decided to go the tiered route for citizenship.  We'd certainly not be the first place to add such a tier, and I've seen areas do far worse (closing off all of the forum except for like 2 places) for new members.

If anything, 5 posts isn't a lot to ask for, as it's already our requirement per month regardless.  All this would do would be to give more reasoning to actually become and then stay active.

You're new and want to take part in elections? That's great! Welcome, just make 5 starting posts and then you're good to go!

Worried that you won't have time to make those 5 posts by the end of the month?  Perfectly okay, because as an Active Member, you have the choice to just donate $5 to pass through the Citizenship check as well!

You failed the citizenship check last month, but want to run for office?  That's fine, just make 5 posts (or just donate $5) when you come back, and you'll be put back on Active Status.

You decided to leave Wintreath for a different region, or got really busy with school/life and let your nation die? Perfectly fine and we're glad to have you back.  If you want to take part in elections again, simply just bring your nation back and post 5 times within the month of your return (or just donate $5), and you're good to go!

It's something even achievable if you happened to return in the month that elections happened.  At most, Inactive members are barred from running for office until they become Active, and Former members are barred from Elections until they come back to Wintreath and become Active members.  But again, both requirements are easy to fix up, as the post count requirement even under the new system would be fine.

If anything, it's keeping the current system but just altering the repercussion if you fail the citizenship check.  Even Aspiring Citizens will still have access to almost all of the forums outside of the Government/Election forums, and all they have to do is post 5 times anywhere to be able to have the rest opened up to them.

I feel rather iffy about this, but there's no real rational reason to be against this. My immediate concern was that it looked very close to people being able to pay for a vote, but realistically, a person willing to donate 5 dollars to the region is probably likely to want to participate in it, too.

My only other concern is that it can easily lead to a situation where you can practically pay to be a Paragon, since the only real benefit to being one is that your citizenship never lapses.

I'm very conflicted about this.

Bringing money into things is always going to cause unease because of the potential problems it could bring.  I think as long as we keep it light, however, with the perks...then we should be okay. I don't think Paid Paragons should be something ever actually discussed since it is a time honored tradition for honoring exemplary citizens who have to leave us, much like I think the idea of buying a government position or paying to view specific forums should also never be discussed.

If someone wants to continuously pay to retain citizenship though, then I'm a little less hesitant on that.  If someone wants to seriously take $5 and put it into Wintreath every single month, then in the long run that only benefits us greatly since that's money that we can count on to help with Wintreath's operation.  Paragons still benefit because they're not paying a thing, for example, to keep that citizenship for their lifetime.  People paying for their citizenship would absolutely not get that same courtesy unless they themselves were being honored as a Paragon.

At the same time in all seriousness, outside of maybe Patreon I don't see it becoming a huge thing where people will start going that route to where we have to worry about a rising population of "zombie" members (no more than we already do for NS Nation members that don't post/participate here or in our NS regional events/RMB).  If we were a much more massive messageboard, I could see it being a bigger thing (but again, in the end it really benefits us more to have that kind of steady flow of donations each month anyways).

But again, that's also the biggest I'd ever want it to go.  Any talks of paying for government positions, closing off parts of the forums, basically things of that nature are the ones I'm usually very much more wary of.

I'm honestly surprised that being a regular donator isn't already one way to maintain citizenship since money quite literally keeps a good chunk of the community up and running. Since this seems to be proposed as an additional way to maintain citizenship, I have no objections to it as proposed in the first post.

I however strongly disagree with the idea of membership tiers, especially if any of those tiers require donating to meet the base requirements. One of the reasons I joined Wintreath as a citizen was because the requirements for maintaining citizenship were a lot more relaxed than other regions'. At the time, I was pretty interesting in participating more actively in a regional government, and the relatively low barrier to qualifying as a candidate for government was a major factor in why I ultimately joined the region. Wintreath is one of a few regions where it's possible for new blood to actually stand a good chance at being elected, and I think citizenship tiers would detract from that.

Life happened, and I haven't been able to be as involved in the regional government as I initially hoped, but I really appreciate how I could easily hop on in at any time without having to worry about my citizenship status.

Be sure to read my edit, @Ollie.

I'm honestly surprised that being a regular donator isn't already one way to maintain citizenship since money quite literally keeps a good chunk of the community up and running. Since this seems to be proposed as an additional way to maintain citizenship, I have no objections to it as proposed in the first post.

I however strongly disagree with the idea of membership tiers, especially if any of those tiers require donating to meet the base requirements. One of the reasons I joined Wintreath as a citizen was because the requirements for maintaining citizenship were a lot more relaxed than other regions'. At the time, I was pretty interesting in participating more actively in a regional government, and the relatively low barrier to qualifying as a candidate for government was a major factor in why I ultimately joined the region. Wintreath is one of a few regions where it's possible for new blood to actually stand a good chance at being elected, and I think citizenship tiers would detract from that.

Life happened, and I haven't been able to be as involved in the regional government as I initially hoped, but I really appreciate how I could easily hop on in at any time without having to worry about my citizenship status.

perhaps "tier" was the wrong word usage in that.  If anything, as I said, it'd retain our current system...just altering things a bit:

Current citizens will still considered Active citizens, for example.  Nothing would be different at all for people in this category.  Donating wouldn't be required in the slightest, it'd just be an alternative if you can't make the 5 posts-per-month and want to retain your status as an active citizen...the same exemption Wintermoot is offering here.

The only real changes would be that anyone with an active NS nation would still be considered a citizen, but only people who post in the forums (or donate to it) would be considered "Active" ones, whereas those who do neither would just be considered "Inactive" ones.  Even then, the only thing closed off to Inactive members would be running for office, as even they'd still be able to vote in elections since they're still citizens of Wintreath.

Likewise, it'd close off Government/Elections and running for office for Former citizens...because if you decided to leave Wintreath, are you really wanting to vote/take part in regional government anyways?

And even then, it's not even difficult to be an Active Citizen.  New members can become Active citizens with just 5 starting posts (donation towards exemption not being an alternative for Aspiring Citizens to become Active).  Inactive citizens can become Active with just 5 posts in their return month (or they can choose a $5 donation as an alternative).  Former Citizens can become Active Citizens with that plus bringing their NS nation back to Wintreath.

And again, this would only affect the forums, not the NS region itself nor Discord.  It's not saying "You must pay $5 dollars to retain citizenship" as much as "If you've met the requirement to be an Active member at any point, you'll have the opportunity to donate $5 as an alternative to existing requirements to remain in Active status.  New members will have to meet the requirement to become Active Citizens to have access to this alternative."

That way, it's not someone making their intro post, donating $5, and then getting that exemption.  Likewise, it also means that new members will have to actually post around a bit before they can access our government side and actually get a small feel of Wintreath and its people.

@Laurentus: Just did, and I do agree.  As I said, bringing money into anything is never an easy thing, and as proven in here can be seen as controversial when it's talked about things to implement.  Some people will see actions such as having "Donor only" forums as nice, while others might see it the same way they look at DLC for a game, aka "Locking something behind a paywall that sets up a bad precedent for locking free-parts behind future paywalls."  Likewise, some might see a Citizenship exemption as fine, while others might see it as harmful if citizens decided to pay $5 each month and never lose citizenship.

Either way, it's a tricky subject to say the least.

The tiers proposal seems somewhat unnecessarily complicated. We already tried post requirements for full citizenship rights, and IIRC the general consensus was that it was not good, hence why we got rid of it.

At the same time in all seriousness, outside of maybe Patreon I don't see it becoming a huge thing where people will start going that route to where we have to worry about a rising population of "zombie" members (no more than we already do for NS Nation members that don't post/participate here or in our NS regional events/RMB).

I think I agree with your general sentiment here, but I don't understand what you mean by "outside of maybe Patreon," because I'm pretty sure most if not all of our donations are monthly and go through Patreon now. (I think there might be a Finances spreadsheet out there somewhere showing this but can't seem to find it right now.)

The tiers proposal seems somewhat unnecessarily complicated. We already tried post requirements for full citizenship rights, and IIRC the general consensus was that it was not good, hence why we got rid of it.

At the same time in all seriousness, outside of maybe Patreon I don't see it becoming a huge thing where people will start going that route to where we have to worry about a rising population of "zombie" members (no more than we already do for NS Nation members that don't post/participate here or in our NS regional events/RMB).

I think I agree with your general sentiment here, but I don't understand what you mean by "outside of maybe Patreon," because I'm pretty sure most if not all of our donations are monthly and go through Patreon now. (I think there might be a Finances spreadsheet out there somewhere showing this but can't seem to find it right now.)

While that's most likely true, I'd imagine it's more of our long standing members that have been using the Patreon route anyways, since $5 automatically a month is a bit of a commitment (heck, even $1 a month can be for some people).  And when it comes to those members, I highly doubt anyone is worried about them becoming "zombie" members because they're normally pretty active people already.

My sentiments were more toward whom I'd imagine the "zombie" member thing was more toward...which would be the newer members or ones that barely post.  Which in that case, I can't really see them using the Patreon route anyways (at the very least, not the $5 a month route). I'd imagine if they went the donation route, they'd probably use the Paypal way and do like a 1 time thing.

I didn't mean the reveal of our existing zombie citizenry as something that fundamentally required change (particularly change that might honestly be detrimental). After all, under those rules, half of our base might lose citizenship, since it's been a relatively slow month.
Certainly if we were just looking at me, if we ignored this topic, I'd stop being a citizen come January activity check (and wouldn't that be a great look, having a non-citizen Jarl).
Rather, I was observing that fears of 'zombie citizens' have relatively little basis in reality. We have them already. We've had some for years. Having some new zombie citizens...isn't really all that much of a problem.

I didn't mean the reveal of our existing zombie citizenry as something that fundamentally required change (particularly change that might honestly be detrimental). After all, under those rules, half of our base might lose citizenship, since it's been a relatively slow month.
Certainly if we were just looking at me, if we ignored this topic, I'd stop being a citizen come January activity check (and wouldn't that be a great look, having a non-citizen Jarl).
Rather, I was observing that fears of 'zombie citizens' have relatively little basis in reality. We have them already. We've had some for years. Having some new zombie citizens...isn't really all that much of a problem.

You would actually lose your position immediately upon this occurring (as would, literally, everyone else who would fall under this)

I didn't mean the reveal of our existing zombie citizenry as something that fundamentally required change (particularly change that might honestly be detrimental). After all, under those rules, half of our base might lose citizenship, since it's been a relatively slow month.
Certainly if we were just looking at me, if we ignored this topic, I'd stop being a citizen come January activity check (and wouldn't that be a great look, having a non-citizen Jarl).
Rather, I was observing that fears of 'zombie citizens' have relatively little basis in reality. We have them already. We've had some for years. Having some new zombie citizens...isn't really all that much of a problem.

You would actually lose your position immediately upon this occurring (as would, literally, everyone else who would fall under this)

No, you wouldn't.  Stop twisting it around.

Would the citizenship alteration I'm suggesting occur, should anyone fail to meet the post requirement for the month, the only thing they would lose is the ability to run for office until they go back to Active status.  Jarls don't run for office, they're appointed.

Anyone who is considered Inactive just would not be able to run in elections until they meet the post count requirement.  Current Skrifa, Jarls, and Thanes wouldn't be affected because they're already in office.  All this would affect would be people running in the next elections.

And again, it would be easily remedied by either posting 5 times within the month that you come back, or donating.  It's not something permanent, and contrary to what you think it's not a stripping of your position (and nowhere did I say that it was).

The only people who would be affected otherwise would be Former Citizens and Aspiring Citizens, the former of which would be because they let their nation lapse or moved it elsewhere (which is already a thing, this would just add something to it)...and the latter which is remedied the minute they make at least 5 posts in the forums.

I didn't mean the reveal of our existing zombie citizenry as something that fundamentally required change (particularly change that might honestly be detrimental). After all, under those rules, half of our base might lose citizenship, since it's been a relatively slow month.
Certainly if we were just looking at me, if we ignored this topic, I'd stop being a citizen come January activity check (and wouldn't that be a great look, having a non-citizen Jarl).
Rather, I was observing that fears of 'zombie citizens' have relatively little basis in reality. We have them already. We've had some for years. Having some new zombie citizens...isn't really all that much of a problem.

You would actually lose your position immediately upon this occurring (as would, literally, everyone else who would fall under this)

No, you wouldn't.  Stop twisting it around.

Would the citizenship alteration I'm suggesting occur, should anyone fail to meet the post requirement for the month, the only thing they would lose is the ability to run for office until they go back to Active status.  Jarls don't run for office, they're appointed.

Anyone who is considered Inactive just would not be able to run in elections until they meet the post count requirement.  Current Skrifa, Jarls, and Thanes wouldn't be affected because they're already in office.  All this would affect would be people running in the next elections.

And again, it would be easily remedied by either posting 5 times within the month that you come back, or donating.  It's not something permanent, and contrary to what you think it's not a stripping of your position (and nowhere did I say that it was).

The only people who would be affected otherwise would be Former Citizens and Aspiring Citizens, the former of which would be because they let their nation lapse or moved it elsewhere (which is already a thing, this would just add something to it)...and the latter which is remedied the minute they make at least 5 posts in the forums.

Calm the fuck down, I misread something in your proposal. No need to be so needlessly hostile.

EDIT: In hindsight, this was needlessly hostile and I do apologies. However still, the fact of the matter is that you reacted in a needlessly hostile matter to what could have been interpreted to be a simple misunderstanding.

Would the citizenship alteration I'm suggesting occur, should anyone fail to meet the post requirement for the month, the only thing they would lose is the ability to run for office until they go back to Active status.  Jarls don't run for office, they're appointed.

Anyone who is considered Inactive just would not be able to run in elections until they meet the post count requirement.  Current Skrifa, Jarls, and Thanes wouldn't be affected because they're already in office.  All this would affect would be people running in the next elections.

And again, it would be easily remedied by either posting 5 times within the month that you come back, or donating.  It's not something permanent, and contrary to what you think it's not a stripping of your position (and nowhere did I say that it was).

The only people who would be affected otherwise would be Former Citizens and Aspiring Citizens, the former of which would be because they let their nation lapse or moved it elsewhere (which is already a thing, this would just add something to it)...and the latter which is remedied the minute they make at least 5 posts in the forums.

Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering how it would affect those already in office.

However I still don't like the idea of having different levels of citizenship because, in essence, the system you propose will create two tiers of citizenship: one with full rights and one with limited rights. While that's not necessarily a bad thing and it has merits in some cases, it does put up an additional barrier to entry into the government.

Considering I joined Wintreath because all citizens were eligible to run for office once they met the base requirements, regardless of how recently they had joined the region, putting a system into place that requires additional work in order to run for office just doesn't sit well with me, especially as there are already additional requirements to running for office.

I'd also like to point out that making 5 posts in a month is not so easy when 1) you're not already in a government position and 2) prefer to make only meaningful contributions with your posts. Under the citizenship system proposed, I'd be bumped down to Aspiring Citizen and be unable to run for any office unless I either made 5 posts (something I struggle with outside of WW games) or donated $5, even though I'm not actually inactive in the region. I just happen to be more chatty in the Discord than on the forums.

Wow, this has spawned a lot of different debates, hasn't it?

To be honest, none of the maintenance requirements are much of a contribution, but the purpose of them was more about showing a basic level of continued commitment rather than requiring a contribution. Take maintaining a nation for example...if someone does nothing but log into it once a month, it's not much more of a contribution than someone making a puppet and storing it in the region. Even worse, there are scripts that automate logging in, requiring the person to take no action at all to maintain Citizenship. But on some level it shows a very basic level of commitment...they have to keep the script going, after all.

It may be just because I've never been particularly wealthy, but to me $5/month is a significant contribution, more significant than an inactive nation or five spam posts. Even if it doesn't sound like much though, think of it this way. If 10 people decide that's how they want to maintain their Citizenship, that's $50 each month. If 20 people do, that's $100. Small amounts add up quickly, and in time I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that 20 people might want to do this. We currently have 5 monthly donators as it is, ranging from $1 to $10 a month.

The whole Wintreath's role with NationStates thing is something the community has been debating to some extent for the last two or three years now. I think we could survive for a good while without NationStates, but that doesn't make NationStates unimportant...it's the source of most of our new members, it's the platform that most of our government is tasked with dealing with (especially Foreign and Regional Affairs), and it's currently the only game other than Minecraft that we're officially involved in. Perhaps someday there will be a game that enough Wintreans want to play to justify branching out to another game, or perhaps someday our Minecraft server will be awesome enough to draw recruitment on its own, or perhaps our own forum games that we've developed will become a draw for new players, but that day isn't today, and even when that day comes that doesn't mean that NationStates will become unimportant, merely that it will become a little less vital to our survival.

The whole power of the founder debate is interesting too in an academic way, especially if you're talking about beliefs such as the social contract between a founder and the natives in the form of a regional Constitution, but for the purposes of this topic it's merely an academic debate.

I would have some concerns about doing Citizenship tiers, mostly around it not being as simple a system as what we have now...right now, either you're a Citizen or you aren't, and that's a very clear distinction. One of the issues that the Cabinet recently discussed was the suspicion that many people are probably not very clear about the roles, benefits and responsibilities of being a Citizen as it is...a lot of people probably just become Citizens because we tell them to in the message they receive when they move in the region. I would be concerned that having tiers would make something that we're already not sure people fully understand even more challenging to understand.

The reason that I was a bit cautious in proposing this idea is because I'm aware that any discussion involving benefits for money is always going to be a bit controversial no matter what, because I think people that are involved with something have an in-grained fear of it selling out...if it becoming more about the money than anything else. In today's world where people seem to be willing to do just about anything for money, I think it's a legitimate fear, although I personally don't think it's warranted in this case (otherwise I would not have proposed this at all).

Would the citizenship alteration I'm suggesting occur, should anyone fail to meet the post requirement for the month, the only thing they would lose is the ability to run for office until they go back to Active status.  Jarls don't run for office, they're appointed.

Anyone who is considered Inactive just would not be able to run in elections until they meet the post count requirement.  Current Skrifa, Jarls, and Thanes wouldn't be affected because they're already in office.  All this would affect would be people running in the next elections.

And again, it would be easily remedied by either posting 5 times within the month that you come back, or donating.  It's not something permanent, and contrary to what you think it's not a stripping of your position (and nowhere did I say that it was).

The only people who would be affected otherwise would be Former Citizens and Aspiring Citizens, the former of which would be because they let their nation lapse or moved it elsewhere (which is already a thing, this would just add something to it)...and the latter which is remedied the minute they make at least 5 posts in the forums.

Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering how it would affect those already in office.

However I still don't like the idea of having different levels of citizenship because, in essence, the system you propose will create two tiers of citizenship: one with full rights and one with limited rights. While that's not necessarily a bad thing and it has merits in some cases, it does put up an additional barrier to entry into the government.

Considering I joined Wintreath because all citizens were eligible to run for office once they met the base requirements, regardless of how recently they had joined the region, putting a system into place that requires additional work in order to run for office just doesn't sit well with me, especially as there are already additional requirements to running for office.

I'd also like to point out that making 5 posts in a month is not so easy when 1) you're not already in a government position and 2) prefer to make only meaningful contributions with your posts. Under the citizenship system proposed, I'd be bumped down to Aspiring Citizen and be unable to run for any office unless I either made 5 posts (something I struggle with outside of WW games) or donated $5, even though I'm not actually inactive in the region. I just happen to be more chatty in the Discord than on the forums.

Just for clarification, if you failed the citizenship check, you'd be bumped to "Inactive" meaning you'd still have full access to all forums and still be able to vote in elections, you'd just be barred from running for office until you met the post requirements upon the month of your return.

Only people who just joined would be considered Aspiring Citizens.

But posts vary from person to person.  In my opinion, it's actually quite easy to make 5 posts in a single month that are still contributory.  There's plenty of choices in the Discussions section, as well as the Amalyan Quarter.  And if you're not in office, you can still post in the Citizen's Platform with ideas.  Asking a member to post once every 6 days isn't asking a whole lot.  Not to mention, it's already the requirement if you don't have an active NS nation, so this wouldn't be changing that in the slightest, just taking something away if you fail the citizenship check and then giving it right back the moment you meet the requirement.

EDIT: Also...

especially as there are already additional requirements to running for office

At the moment, there are no actual requirements.  Once you apply for citizenship and are approved, you're automatically eligible to run for government and vote.  Campaign threads, for example are by the highest recommendation if you want to be looked at seriously, but they're definitely not required (See past elections where nobody put up a thread).  The only exception to this is Thane Elections, since it is required to answer the questions to be considered.  But again, once you join you're automatically eligible to give it a shot. Outside of that, there's no additional base requirements for either type of election.

All this would do would be to say "Once you join, just make 5 posts around the forum, and then you're eligible to vote and run for office" for new members (aka Aspiring Citizens), and likewise "If you disappear, just make 5 posts so that we know you're around and you'll be re-eligible to run for office" for members who fail the citizenship check for that month (aka Inactive Citizens).

Posting some relevant #citizens-platform discussion for archival/discussion purposes:

Spoiler

December 30, 2019
[3:31 PM] Laurentus Valeria: I'm oddly against the citizenship-via-donation idea. I can't immediately identify why I feel uncomfortable with it, but generally speaking, as soon as actual money gets involved, communities tend to split.
[3:32 PM] Laurentus Valeria: Trust me, as the closest thing to a capitalist around here, no one is more surprised by my discomfort with this than me.
[5:14 PM] ShadowX4life: I say that you're not capitalistic enough!
[6:44 PM] Impostermoot: Counterargument: this is socialism in action, those with the excess capacity to do so helping to subsidize public goods used by the entire community, and in exchange we give the astonishingly small consideration of 'you get a pass on citizenship checks'
[6:45 PM] Impostermoot: Because realistically anyone who's donating in the first place is likely to be involved enough that they would qualify by other metrics
[6:45 PM] Chanku: Counter-counterargument: Then why enact it?
[6:45 PM] Chanku: If it would change nothing, then why implement it?
[6:47 PM] Impostermoot: I mean, I was the guy who suggested that people should be able to bank these for the future
[6:49 PM] Chanku: I would also note I am wholey and entirely against the "Citizenship Tiers" Idea.
[6:49 PM] Chanku: And I will also note that it would entirely keep me from donating in any capacity if the law exists.
[6:51 PM] Impostermoot: Wait, there's TIERS of citizenship being discussed now?
[6:51 PM] Chanku: Yes
[6:51 PM] Chanku: By Pengu
[6:51 PM] Impostermoot: I am provisionally opposed until I've read this
[6:51 PM] Chanku: Aspiring/Inactive Citizens for those that dont make 5 posts a month or pay $5. You can't participate or be a part of the government at all
[6:52 PM] Chanku: And also Pengu has generally suggested (from what I understand) locking government areas behind this as well.
[6:52 PM] Chanku: If you have an an NS Nation you becoming an Aspiring/Inactive Citizen until you meet those requirements for the next check or w/e.
[6:52 PM] Chanku: Basically pay the fuck up or grind to be able to even vote or run for office(edited)
[7:10 PM] tatte: Tiers sound fun, but what's this talk about p2w?
[9:07 PM] Impostermoot: hard disagree on citizenship tiers, even the most basic 'aspiring citizen' one. that 5 post requirement is either fairly daunting for people who only want to weigh in when they're meaningfully contributing, or just incentivizes posting in the spam grounds...or spamming outside of them. none of those seems like a particularly valuable decision.
[9:08 PM] Chanku: Also @Impostermoot we have had a 5 post requirement to just GET citizenship, and we repealed that and considered it largely a failure. This would be that, but monthly.
[9:10 PM] taulover: It would also be an unnecessary administrative burden, I think
[9:12 PM] Impostermoot: i totally remember that, and remember thinking it was a daunting burden at the time
[9:17 PM] Chanku: Yeah
[9:17 PM] Chanku: And the reasoning was later changed as Wintermoot even automated that part to an extent, and even he said something that was to the effect of: This was probably the proper solution rather than the limit.
[9:21 PM] Chanku: Also @Impostermoot you would actually lose your Jarlship, as Jarls are required to be Citizens in accordance with the current Decrees on that
[11:28 PM] taulover: I also disagree with the tiers system idea but that is a mischaracterization of Pengu's proposal
[11:29 PM] taulover: It seems to me that Pengu is suggesting that Inactive Citizens would still be Citizens except they would be disqualified from running for office
[11:30 PM] taulover: Any complications that arise from that can be handwaved by the fact that this would be a fundamental overhaul of the citizenship system, with the statutory and (if necessary) constitutional reforms that would imply
[11:56 PM] Chanku: Running for or holding Government office
December 31, 2019
[12:00 AM] taulover: It is fairly clear from everything Pengu has said that he is proposing that Inactive Citizens can continue holding government offices which they are already in
[12:00 AM] Chanku: I disagree
[12:01 AM] Chanku: Apparently I did misread, so my apologies
[12:01 AM] taulover: He literally says "Current Skrifa, Jarls, and Thanes wouldn't be affected because they're already in office.  All this would affect would be people running in the next elections."
[12:02 AM] Chanku: I also hadn't seen that post
[12:02 AM] Chanku: However, I still fundamentally dislike it because now it creates a two-tier system
[12:03 AM] Chanku: "Oh you can participate in the part of the government that does things if you are already there, but you can't be a Thane beyond that nor can you do much more"
[12:04 AM] Chanku: I would definitely leave over such a system
[12:04 AM] Chanku: "Fuck this bullshit" and just up and leave.
[12:10 AM] taulover: Realistically, I don't see a real two-tiered system developing, everyone would just need to make at least 5 posts whenever they want to run for office
[12:10 AM] Chanku: Fundamentally I am honestly disgusted with any such system
[12:10 AM] taulover: What I do think is a major issue is the unnecessary complexities and inconveniences which this would create
[12:11 AM] Chanku: Especially with money involved.
[12:11 AM] taulover: Both for citizens and Monarchy (as overseer of elections) / Administration (as forum masker)
[7:09 AM] Melehan: Under Pengu's proposed tier requirements, I'd be classified as an Inactive Citizen and thus barred from running for any offices
[7:10 AM] Melehan: I just happen to reserve my forum posts for substantial responses, and so I don't typically meet the 5 post requirement unless there's a WW game running
[7:11 AM] Melehan: I had a hard time meeting the 5 posts to qualify as a citizen back when I first joined because I had a hard time finding topics to reply to in a meaningful way
[7:13 AM] Melehan: (and I'm pretty sure I wound up meeting that requirement by pointing out how hard it was for me to find topics to participate meaningfully in in the discussion about the 5 post minimum requirement for citizenship)
[7:14 AM] Melehan: If you avoid the spam forums and aren't part of the government, meeting the 5 post requirement is a lot more daunting than it appears
[8:35 AM] Impostermoot: ^ all that

But posts vary from person to person.  In my opinion, it's actually quite easy to make 5 posts in a single month that are still contributory.  There's plenty of choices in the Discussions section, as well as the Amalyan Quarter.  And if you're not in office, you can still post in the Citizen's Platform with ideas.  Asking a member to post once every 6 days isn't asking a whole lot.

I think Melehan's whole point here is that posts vary from person to person. Because of how much more the Discord has come to dominate the Wintreath community, it is now completely valid for someone to be an active citizen, yet not post very much if at all on the forums.

especially as there are already additional requirements to running for office

At the moment, there are no actual requirements.  Once you apply for citizenship and are approved, you're automatically eligible to run for government and vote.  Campaign threads, for example are by the highest recommendation if you want to be looked at seriously, but they're definitely not required (See past elections where nobody put up a thread).  The only exception to this is Thane Elections, since it is required to answer the questions to be considered.  But again, once you join you're automatically eligible to give it a shot. Outside of that, there's no additional base requirements for either type of election.

This is true, and it might be that some may confuse the additional voter requirements (which do exist) with additional position requirements (of which there are none).

However, it is also important to note that the Monarch and Jarl have final say on who can run for Thaneships. When she was Jarl of FA, Chanku said she (and possibly also Wintermoot?) considered the voter requirements as necessary qualifications for the positions as well. This is something I would oppose, considering that I had not worked on the Orendi much before taking on my current position (for instance), but it is something that the Jarls can do and which might further contribute to the confusion about whether people feel they are fit to run for Thaneships.

Not to mention, it's already the requirement if you don't have an active NS nation, so this wouldn't be changing that in the slightest, just taking something away if you fail the citizenship check and then giving it right back the moment you meet the requirement.
...
All this would do would be to say "Once you join, just make 5 posts around the forum, and then you're eligible to vote and run for office" for new members (aka Aspiring Citizens), and likewise "If you disappear, just make 5 posts so that we know you're around and you'll be re-eligible to run for office" for members who fail the citizenship check for that month (aka Inactive Citizens).

This brings us to something which I've brought up several times on #citizens-platform but not here. The fact that this would add so many more unnecessary post checks and unmaskings to citizenship checks, followed by reapplications and remaskings, is already enough to make me dislike the idea. This unnecessarily complicates the administrative burden for both Wintermoot (as both Monarch/election overseer and forum admin) and for citizens looking to get more involved in government.