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Are they? We have gotten to a point where people have said that they were consistently shouted down when they tried to speak out.

And personally I feel like you aren't actually listening. The opposition has been shouted down creating apathy. Further lets not pretend that any elections on here are nothing more than glorified popularity contests, for the most part. Sure they may have agreed with my position, but disagreed with how I went about doing so. They may have felt it would have been useless to vote for me. There are multiple things that could have made someone not vote for me.

No, I have been.  In fact, I've been talking in IRC and in query to people about it.  I realize it's a problem, and that's the problem I was referring to that won't simply go away with the implementation of an OA.

Chanku, I wouldn't really bring your campaigns in to this, because people KNOW you as a candidate.  To put it frank, the reason people don't vote for you isn't because you have opposing viewpoints, but how you present yourself.  You've belittled people that disagree with you, and have made them feel exactly the way I've been getting at with in my posts.

It's one thing to tastefully disagree with a viewpoint, it's another to be downright insulting about it like you've been.  Because that latter method is EXACTLY what causes that apathy in others in the first place.

No, I asked the question to prove a point. Our campaigns were so close, both in content and in the number of votes we got, that it baffles me that we got in, as our campaigns were quite formative for this Act, and we all agreed some things would best be added later. And yet we ended up so close together. That definitely displays that there's a huge problem with our current system too. One that prevents us from even considering an alternative, since we have to fix this problem before we have any hope of getting to an alternative anyway, since this system is supposed to lay the foundation for the next one.

Also, at Chanku, which post are you referring to there in that thread you've linked?

Ah, gotcha.  I see what you were getting at now.    And I do agree that it displays a problem with the current system.

Are they? We have gotten to a point where people have said that they were consistently shouted down when they tried to speak out.

And personally I feel like you aren't actually listening. The opposition has been shouted down creating apathy. Further lets not pretend that any elections on here are nothing more than glorified popularity contests, for the most part. Sure they may have agreed with my position, but disagreed with how I went about doing so. They may have felt it would have been useless to vote for me. There are multiple things that could have made someone not vote for me.

No, I have been.  In fact, I've been talking in IRC and in query to people about it.  I realize it's a problem, and that's the problem I was referring to that won't simply go away with the implementation of an OA.

You keep reiterating the same points, just slightly differently.

Chanku, I wouldn't really bring your campaigns in to this, because people KNOW you as a candidate.  To put it frank, the reason people don't vote for you isn't because you have opposing viewpoints, but how you present yourself.  You've belittled people that disagree with you, and have made them feel exactly the way I've been getting at with in my posts.

This is what makes me think you aren't actually listening, I DIRECTLY ADMITTED THAT IN MY POST. "... but disagreed with how I went about doing so."

It's one thing to tastefully disagree with a viewpoint, it's another to be downright insulting about it like you've been.  Because that latter method is EXACTLY what causes that apathy in others in the first place.

Yes, however lets not pretend this isn't occurring on both sides.

Can we get back on topic?

So a lot of this discussion has been on why nothing has been said until now? Well with my anecdotal experience here I hope to explain my situation at least.

For me it seemed like this was a done deal, to put further effort in was futile.
 
If you can remember I was strongly opposed to this premise from way back at the start of the convention, I posted 3 alternate proposals, none of which were very good, I disagreed but I couldn't formalize my disagreement terribly well, and by the end of the last proposal I felt pretty worn out.

I had opposed this so much I felt extremely burnt out about it all, the only reason I ran for the forth term was to try and block it, but I was too tired of it all.

This topic was posted on December 30th, New Years Eve, and lasted until the 6th of January, my Mum's Birthday, I wasn't even at home until much later, and when I did come back it seemed as though it had all already been decided, that no one agreed with me and expressing any further dissent was pointless, and would just waste everyone's time.

My tone in this post should convey some of that: http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=3149.msg56894#msg56894

In the intervening time my mind has been changed I am no longer completely against an open assembly, hell I wasn't really by the time of my last proposal in the convention. But I do still disagree with suchan Open Assembly, if this is to be done, I really want it done right, I don't want to open up with what I perceive as flaws in the process, then what we are going to use the possibly flawed process to fix itself? But hey, this is my subjective opinion, if that's a problem, oh well.

In fact I was going to abstain for this, that was my original vote, "why dissent, what's the point", it'll just be shot down, and watching Chanku explode recently and him being the only apparent dissenting voice made it seem pretty final.

But then I was talking on IRC and when I raised my current concerns I found people understood them and agreed and made good points of their own, I felt like I could maybe make a difference, if it wasn't for that I doubt I would have posted more than the abstention on here.

Alright, I'm not sure what this accomplishes anymore. Let's close the voting, and begin discussing the issues again in the convention. This time, though, I would prefer to have more than six people weigh in.

Agreed.  This is something that affects all of us, so I'd really love to hear from more people that are against either the current OA setup, or the idea of an OA in general. 

Alright, I'm not sure what this accomplishes anymore. Let's close the voting, and begin discussing the issues again in the convention. This time, though, I would prefer to have more than six people weigh in.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Many people haven't voted yet, and besides, it hasn't been promoted yet in the top of the forums... I think that's why we've got low turnout at the moment

8 or 9 votes for, 7 or 8 against, and a few abstentions. You're right, that's not enough to be a deciding factor when 46 people were online today.

@Wintermoot, could you perhaps split the topic off from where the debates began (only after the page where all the votes have been cast, of course), and link to where they've been stored? Perhaps even move them to Weissreich's topic.

Done.

Chanku, I ran as a conditional supporter of an OA. I got 2 replies in my campaign thread, one was Wintermoot wishing me luck and the other was Laurentus asking if I would be active. Don't act like EVERYONE was for the OA unconditionally. I tried a compromise. Few even bothered to read it, fewer replied. That left me with a pretty big impression that the majority was for an OA. It's not like anyone told me that they were against the OA.

Also, be honest. You could have promised free blowjobs and peace on earth and few would have voted for you. Now I know why.

Hannah, if you didn't want to come to us with your opinion because you were afraid that we, the UH, would blow you off then you know me so little and I have lost a lot of respect for you. I would never just ignore a fellow Wintreath citizen because he or she has different opinions than me. That you would think so little of me, that you would think me so petty and vain hurts me because I like you, Hannah. I really do. Your sweet and a great person to be around. It pains me that you apparently think that I am a petty snob.

At this point, it's all moot. Damn, I just need to get away from this place.

North, please don't take the remarks personally. If one were to actually look back at the campaign threads, one would notice that you were not a proponent of the Open Assembly until some time later. Chanku clearly has an agenda here, so you don't have to take it too seriously either. Plus, I am pretty sure HannahB's comments were not intentionally targeted at the current Skrifas, she was just sharing her reasoning behind not continuing to express her disapproval of the bill.

Not to point fingers, but Hannah's comments weren't the ones that left me exasperated and feeling hurt. I was far more annoyed by people who said literally nothing, and then began criticising us for things like not representing the people. Hannah at least tried. I do believe she came up with just as many proposals as I did.

Also, something I want to clarify. Who is dissenting( I hate that term,I'll go with disagreeing) and where? I've seen Hannah talk about other people agreeing with her but I don't see them here.

Weiss and Pengu also talk about people who disagree, but who? Who disagrees? I don't doubt their existence but this is emblematic of the problem. They never got in touch with me or any other UH member. They didn't post in the debate topic. I don't even know who they are and why they disagree and I was the one who first suggested we propose the Act.

So I want to know more than Hannah's opinion, or Pengu's opinion, I want to know everyone's opinion. And if you are communicating in a manner that makes sure I cannot partake then why are people mad at the UH?