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[What do you want from the Constitutional Convention?]

What do you want from the Constitutional Convention?

An Open Assembly, as per the current proposal.

9 (31%)

An Open Assembly, as per the amendments listed in this thread/any others suggested.

11 (37.9%)

A Bicameral Assembly, as per a post I will make in this thread.

3 (10.3%)

No change from the current Underhusen/Overhusen system.

6 (20.7%)

Other (please comment with details)

0 (0%)

No preference.

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 21

I'm not saying he isn't willing, I'm merely saying he probably would abstain unless it was a very serious matter...

I have full trust in Wintermoot, in that he will keep this region safe, no matter what happens. He may let us play quite a lot with "freedoms" but in the end we will remain safe anyway. And that is a really good thing, since the region stands on the principles he laid on. Freedoms he gives us are as important as the "restrictions" he imposes. After all we hold values that define us, and those have to stand no matter what or we stop being what we really are.

//edit: oh man those are some complicated sentences...

@Lychgate: You're a relative newcomer to the region, so I'd just like to know your thoughts in general. What would you like to see?

K m80.

I had a NS nation from a long time ago, and was in a region (that CTE'd, unfortunately) with an Open Assembly-type form of legislature. It was living hell. Every day, I would be greeted with someone filibustering on the RMB (they didn't have offsite forums) and at least three different people opposing the bill because "I DO WUT I WANT". While I doubt that this would be the case here, I think that the idea of a smaller legislature, e.g. the current Storting, would be much better for the region. With elections, we could make sure that those who have an interest in regional politics had access to get involved with them, and those who weren't could stay out if that is what they so desire. In my opinion, Storting Elections are part of what makes Wintreath...Wintreath (or at least the one I've been in). Again, Nay.

There'd still be Speaker elections. Tough ones. I started out in a region that only conducted business on the RMB too. Let me tell you, it's always a mess. I highly doubt the OA was the chief reason for the region's failure.

There'd still be Speaker elections. Tough ones. I started out in a region that only conducted business on the RMB too. Let me tell you, it's always a mess. I highly doubt the OA was the chief reason for the region's failure.

Gonna agree with Laurentus here, I think RMB's do not make for a conducive atmosphere for political happenings :p Having a proper forum means the organisational side of things, if done properly, can be taken care of easily and will keep the OA working efficiently (if combined with good Proc. Rules/CoC)

I only partially agree with Laurentus here. While RMB-only regions tend to be messy, an Open Assembly is messy as well.

So far there seems to be a general trend
People that have actually been in regions with Open Assemblies have voted against
People that have not actually been in a region with an Open Assembly they either vote against, for, or abstain. (With a slightly lean towards for this act.)

While this isn't 100% conclusive it does, however, point towards a trend that is against Open Assemblies in NS. As such we might wanna take a look at other regions that are doing an Open Assemblies throughout NationStates. This is the only reason why we seem to have a working bicameral legislature here, there was a common issue that usually caused them to fail and it was identified and fixed.

If there is a common failing among Open Assemblies in NS we need to figure out what it is, and how we can fix it, because right now we are working off of assumptions and are shooting blind into the dark. I also find it somewhat concerning that the individuals that are voting against it because they were apart of regions with OA's are being dismissed as is can never possibly happen here, yet we have had instances of about 4 or 5 regions now with OA's that have had issues with such a system. Even if it is not completely representative we need to figure out why that seems to be a trend.

(Also sorry if this is a bit disjointed, I am rather tired right now, so these are just tired ramblings of a madman, in a sense )

By the same logic, most of the people with the most experience working in the Underhusen are voting against the current system, so the current system must be bad.

I don't think they're being dismissed, but their chief complaint was that open assemblies weren't active in their regions, and it's already been widely acknowledged that our current system isn't very active anyway. I think at some point in the Convention it was decided that there wasn't much of a way to increase legislative activity given how things are, so people started focusing on things like this.

It's intriguing to see that so many people have voted for no change to the current system when we had months of work go into working out the Open Assembly with minimal protests from anyone over the change :/

To be fair, Hannah has always opposed it. Chanku too.

@Lychgate: You're a relative newcomer to the region, so I'd just like to know your thoughts in general. What would you like to see?

K m80.

I had a NS nation from a long time ago, and was in a region (that CTE'd, unfortunately) with an Open Assembly-type form of legislature. It was living hell. Every day, I would be greeted with someone filibustering on the RMB (they didn't have offsite forums) and at least three different people opposing the bill because "I DO WUT I WANT". While I doubt that this would be the case here, I think that the idea of a smaller legislature, e.g. the current Storting, would be much better for the region. With elections, we could make sure that those who have an interest in regional politics had access to get involved with them, and those who weren't could stay out if that is what they so desire. In my opinion, Storting Elections are part of what makes Wintreath...Wintreath (or at least the one I've been in). Again, Nay.

Damn NatSovs.

I believe concerns about security are overplayed.  When we say that Wintreath is isolationist, I don't think a lot of people know what that really means.  I challenge anyone to find a region this size that's more disconnected from actual NS politics than our own.  It's safe to say we're a very stable and secure region. 

I think it would be prudent for me to jump in here, for I actually founded a region with an Open Assembly: Cynosure. As such, for those who are considering other NS regions with Open Assemblies, Cynosure is a growing one that is using it rather successfully, and I'll write a case study using this region below.

When I founded the region, I designed the Constitution to specifically lay out exactly how the Open Assembly (which Cynosure calls the Senate) would work. While it probably would be set out differently in Wintreath, it has worked rather successfully for Cynosure.

Citizen's can apply to become a member of the Senate, and those that do instantly gain access, providing they have been in the region for two weeks. They can also gain access prior to this two week probation with support of the Senate Manager (equivalent to the Speaker) or the Councillor (equivalent to the Monarch). This separates the citizens into two camps; those interested in participating in the legal side of the region, and those not. As Cynosure is primarily a roleplay region, the majority of citizens simply come on to roleplay rather than participate in law, so the Senate contains a subset of citizens.

The Senate specifically has three phases when passing law. Phase 1: Proposal Phase, involves Senators proposing an act with the idea of getting two co-sponsors to move it into the main body of the Senate. This is to ensure that the basis of the law is sound and has at least a small support.

Phase 2: Debate Phase, lasts a minimum of three days. During this phase, Senator's register on the act by motioning to either vote, hold or table. The Sponsors (the three Senators who introduced the act) are automatically considered registered and need to motion to move things forward. This is important, because when there is a 100% motion to vote of all registered senators after the three day minimum period, the vote automatically moves to a vote by, and only those who are registered on an act are eligible to vote on it.

Phase 3: Vote Phase, lasts four days or until everyone has voted enough to make it pass. The Senate requires 2/3 approval of all registered voters. The idea behind registration is that it further cuts down the size of the Senate to allow only those interested in a particular act to vote on it.

Now, that's the basics, and I suspect in Wintreath's case it'll work completely differently. My point here is not to bring this phased approach over to our Open Assembly, but to showcase a working Open Assembly in a different region. Given Cynosure's focus on RP, and the lack of focus on gameplay, the Senate offers a very relaxed atmosphere. It's only really used when needed, and even then it works on consensus, so that the outcome nearly always has the support of the region behind it. If done right, an Open Assembly can offer a far more cohesive outlook towards legislating.

Well, with so many likes it can't be wrong. I'm curious, what led to the development of such a system in Cynosure?

Well, with so many likes it can't be wrong. I'm curious, what led to the development of such a system in Cynosure?

I was pretty much the sole creator of the Constitution as it stands, minus subsequent amendments. My personal interest in direct democracy, and my basis of setting up the region with relation to how the Galactic Republic functioned in Star Wars, were the founding pillars in the creation of the Senate.

I also put a lot of the procedure into the Constitution as I felt that in such an open body, a centralised process that everyone is aware of and follows that is pretty much set in stone is important. Coupled with the fact that all Constitutional amendments require the Founder's approval mean the Senate is a rather stable body, even with the freedom it provides to get involved.

Taken me a while to get back to this but here goes;

When I founded the region, I designed the Constitution to specifically lay out exactly how the Open Assembly (which Cynosure calls the Senate) would work. While it probably would be set out differently in Wintreath, it has worked rather successfully for Cynosure.

Citizen's can apply to become a member of the Senate, and those that do instantly gain access, providing they have been in the region for two weeks. They can also gain access prior to this two week probation with support of the Senate Manager (equivalent to the Speaker) or the Councillor (equivalent to the Monarch). This separates the citizens into two camps; those interested in participating in the legal side of the region, and those not. As Cynosure is primarily a roleplay region, the majority of citizens simply come on to roleplay rather than participate in law, so the Senate contains a subset of citizens.

I quite like the idea of an opt-in Open Assembly; that way, those who're interested can of course be involved, but those who aren't interested aren't there never voting or discussing things. I think it's a fair assumption to make that there'll always be those in regions disinterested in politics, and making it opt-in means the OA will (hopefully) only have active and interested members participating.

We've talked about the idea of a time requirement, but it doesn't seem to be very popular. A post requirement would still work - something along the lines of a "hey, stick around and get 15 posts and you can join our legislature!" note on the citizenship application in addition to the question about whether or not they'd be interested in it?

The Senate specifically has three phases when passing law. Phase 1: Proposal Phase, involves Senators proposing an act with the idea of getting two co-sponsors to move it into the main body of the Senate. This is to ensure that the basis of the law is sound and has at least a small support.

Phase 2: Debate Phase, lasts a minimum of three days. During this phase, Senator's register on the act by motioning to either vote, hold or table. The Sponsors (the three Senators who introduced the act) are automatically considered registered and need to motion to move things forward. This is important, because when there is a 100% motion to vote of all registered senators after the three day minimum period, the vote automatically moves to a vote by, and only those who are registered on an act are eligible to vote on it.

Phase 3: Vote Phase, lasts four days or until everyone has voted enough to make it pass. The Senate requires 2/3 approval of all registered voters. The idea behind registration is that it further cuts down the size of the Senate to allow only those interested in a particular act to vote on it.

I actually really like this system - it's simple, ensures that laws being discussed are not only sound but necessary as well and ensures that law that goes up for debate and eventual vote is supported to some degree. I'm not too sure on the whole registering on bills thing, as I'd rather have everyone able to discuss proposed law once it passes the first stage, but maybe something like that could work. The third stage is pretty obvious, and with some timing alterations I could see a system like this working here.

Now, that's the basics, and I suspect in Wintreath's case it'll work completely differently. My point here is not to bring this phased approach over to our Open Assembly, but to showcase a working Open Assembly in a different region. Given Cynosure's focus on RP, and the lack of focus on gameplay, the Senate offers a very relaxed atmosphere. It's only really used when needed, and even then it works on consensus, so that the outcome nearly always has the support of the region behind it. If done right, an Open Assembly can offer a far more cohesive outlook towards legislating.

Obviously this would need alteration and adjustment to fit into Wintreath's unique set-up, but I think this has a lot of potential for fixing some of the issues people seem to be having with how the proposal sits at the minute (as well as other concerns people have about voting in general).

Anyone else have thoughts? You all liked it